Netanyahu says don’t get ‘hung up’ on peace with Palestinians first

[ozimoron]

19 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

???? Calling people racists , scum , war criminals , dishonest , comparing people to Hitler and Putin , likening Israel to Nazi Germany , ....................................and then complaining because someone posts a few letters in Capital letters

I called no board member any of those things. Get off your high horse. It's perfectly legit to call public figures all of those things. Stop the snowflake act.

[Mac Mickmanus]

5 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

I called no board member any of those things. Get off your high horse. It's perfectly legit to call public figures all of those things. Stop the snowflake act.

Well you did accuse me of arguing in bad faith , ( which is being dishonest) when I posted some info from a link that you provided .

   I then had to repost the link back to you so you could read the info ????

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Well you did accuse me of arguing in bad faith , ( which is being dishonest) when I posted some info from a link that you provided .

   I then had to repost the link back to you so you could read the info ????

If you refuse to provide links to claims of fact you are by definition arguing in bad faith.

Edited February 1, 2023 by ozimoron

[Mac Mickmanus]

Just now, ozimoron said:

If you refuse to provide links to claims of fact you are by definition arguing in bad faith.

The facts that I posted were taken from the link that you posted .

   I opened your link, posted some facts from that link and you requested that I post the link to where I got my info from .

   Didn't you even read your own link ?

[ozimoron]

7 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

The facts that I posted were taken from the link that you posted .

   I opened your link, posted some facts from that link and you requested that I post the link to where I got my info from .

   Didn't you even read your own link ?

I did. We are at odds over the definition of the 2 state solution. The original proposal which you referred to as "the two state solution" never was that, it was a partition proposed by the British to enforce an Israeli nation within Palestine. The Palestinians rejected it.

 

That has never been referred to as "the two state solution".  The two state solution is the Oslo accords agreed to in 1993. It was based on the 1967 borders. Israel has never honoured that agreement.

[Mac Mickmanus]

9 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

I did. We are at odds over the definition of the 2 state solution. The original proposal which you referred to as "the two state solution" never was that, it was a partition proposed by the British to enforce an Israeli nation within Palestine. The Palestinians rejected it.

 

That has never been referred to as "the two state solution".  The two state solution is the Oslo accords agreed to in 1993. It was based on the 1967 borders. Israel has never honoured that agreement.

The agreement of the Oslo accord 1993 was that Palestinians would stop the terror attacks and once there was peace for five years  between the two then further measures would be implemented , Hamas committed numerous terrorist attacks in 1995 and so the Oslo accord was cancelled 

   

[Mac Mickmanus]

17 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

I did. We are at odds over the definition of the 2 state solution. The original proposal which you referred to as "the two state solution" never was that, it was a partition proposed by the British to enforce an Israeli nation within Palestine. The Palestinians rejected it.

 

That has never been referred to as "the two state solution".  The two state solution is the Oslo accords agreed to in 1993. It was based on the 1967 borders. Israel has never honoured that agreement.

You are wrong about that .

   The first proposal of the two state solution was made in the Peel commission in 1937 , which was accepted by the Jews and rejected by the Arabs .

  The two state solution was again proposed in 1947 which was again accepted by the Jews and rejected by the Arabs 

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

You are wrong about that .

   The first proposal of the two state solution was made in the Peel commission in 1937 , which was accepted by the Jews and rejected by the Arabs .

  The two state solution was again proposed in 1947 which was again accepted by the Jews and rejected by the Arabs 

If you have a link referring to the original 1947 proposal for a partition using the term "two state solution" then please provide it instead of just calling me wrong. I'll be happy to concede if you can. This is exactly what I mean by arguing in bad faith.

[Mac Mickmanus]

Just now, ozimoron said:

If you have a link referring to the original 1947 proposal for a partition using the term "two state solution" then please provide it instead of just calling me wrong. I'll be happy to concede if you can. This is exactly what I mean by arguing in bad faith.

History of the two-state solution

The first proposal for the creation of Jewish and Arab states in the British Mandate of Palestine was made in the Peel Commission report of 1937, with the Mandate continuing to cover only a small area containing Jerusalem. The recommended partition proposal was rejected by the Arab community of Palestine,^[15][16] and was accepted by most of the Jewish leadership.

Partition was again proposed by the 1947 UN Partition plan for the division of Palestine. It proposed a three-way division, again with Jerusalem held separately, under international control. The partition plan was accepted by the Jewish leadership. However, the plan was rejected by the leadership of Arab 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-state_solution#:~:text=The two-state solution to,west of the Jordan River.

 

[ozimoron]

21 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

History of the two-state solution

The first proposal for the creation of Jewish and Arab states in the British Mandate of Palestine was made in the Peel Commission report of 1937, with the Mandate continuing to cover only a small area containing Jerusalem. The recommended partition proposal was rejected by the Arab community of Palestine,^[15][16] and was accepted by most of the Jewish leadership.

Partition was again proposed by the 1947 UN Partition plan for the division of Palestine. It proposed a three-way division, again with Jerusalem held separately, under international control. The partition plan was accepted by the Jewish leadership. However, the plan was rejected by the leadership of Arab 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-state_solution#:~:text=The two-state solution to,west of the Jordan River.

 

That is the history including the origin. It does not refer to the original partition agreement as the "two state solution"

 

As far as using terrorism for failing to implement the solution, that applies to both sides. Dropping a bomb from an aeroplane onto civilians is still terrorism, just as blowing up a bus is.

Edited February 1, 2023 by ozimoron

[Scott]

Inflammatory post reported and removed along with replies.

 

[thaibeachlovers]

12 hours ago, Hanaguma said:

I am curious about this too. AFAIK All Israeli citizens enjoy equal political and human rights.

 

I think the Israelis have been remarkably restrained in their responses to numerous provocations from the members of the death cult that infests the Palestinians.  These are people who pay cash bonuses to families of suicide bombers and those who murder Israeli civilians.

 

 

Seriously. Do you expect us to believe that Arab and Jewish Israelis are treated equally?

The facts are out and can't be covered up, ( as seen on Al Jazeera ) arresting family and friends of those that attack Jews and sealing their houses, which is collective punishment, and trying to make it possible to revoke their citizenship, none of which apparently happens to a Jew that attacks or kills an Arab.

Trying to force Arabs to sell their houses in the non Israeli part of Jerusalem to make it de facto Jewish.

 

I think the Israelis have been remarkably restrained in their responses to numerous provocations from the members of the death cult that infests the Palestinians. 

Seriously? Try being a Palestinian being attacked by settlers and see if you'd not respond.

Any "provocations" are from the Israelis against Palestinians as much as from the Palestinians.

However, you can continue trying to excuse the actions of the Israelis but don't expect all of us to agree with you.

 

[thaibeachlovers]

8 hours ago, CharlieKo said:

Israel has tried a number of times to make peace with the Palestinians. On each occasion the Palestinians rejected peace. So really the Palestinians have deprived themselves of Life, Liberty, and Happiness. 

None of which excuse the Israelis for occupying land that is not part of the 1948 UN resolution and depriving the Palestinians of a homeland.

The only reason they get away with that is because of the IMO strange power they have over the US, which vetoes every resolution against Israel in the UN.

[Mac Mickmanus]

8 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

None of which excuse the Israelis for occupying land that is not part of the 1948 UN resolution and depriving the Palestinians of a homeland.

The only reason they get away with that is because of the IMO strange power they have over the US, which vetoes every resolution against Israel in the UN.

The Palestinians rejected the offer of a Palestinian homeland on the land numerous times , if they dont want a homeland there , would be a shame to let the land go to waste and may as well build homes on the vacant land which no one else wants .

   Even the previous owners, Jordan, they didn't want oi either 

[GypsyT]

The Guardian;

"It's now clear: the Oslo peace accords were wrecked by Netanyahu's bad faith"

 

He was rotten then and is now.

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, GypsyT said:

The Guardian;

"It's now clear: the Oslo peace accords were wrecked by Netanyahu's bad faith"

 

He was rotten then and is now.

I agree he is rotten but he's still the leader of Israel and it's an inconvenient truth that at this stage in history NEITHER SIDE has strong support for a two state solution. So REALISTICALLY if people hope for any inprovement, they're going to need to come up with ideas that can realistically gain majority support on both sides. Good luck with that.

[GypsyT]

Only hope is they take a trip to Egypt. That will give 40 yrs of peace.

Oh no, I forgot Google Maps.....

 

"For 40 years, the Israelites wandered in the wilderness, eating quail and manna. They were led into the Promised Land by Joshua; the victory at Jericho marked the beginning of possession of the land."

[ozimoron]

2 hours ago, Jingthing said:

I agree he is rotten but he's still the leader of Israel and it's an inconvenient truth that at this stage in history NEITHER SIDE has strong support for a two state solution. So REALISTICALLY if people hope for any inprovement, they're going to need to come up with ideas that can realistically gain majority support on both sides. Good luck with that.

I already debunked that with a link. Provide a link that shows that Palestinians (non Israeli citizens) don't support a two state solution and STOP ramming the capitals down our throats. Your version of reality is not everyone else's.

[Jingthing]

Unfortunately this is old from 2014 but you can see the trend.

 

Mounting Pessimism about Two-State Israeli-Palestinian Solution | Pew Research Center

Quote

 

Mounting Pessimism about Two-State Israeli-Palestinian Solution

In the wake of yet another breakdown in the Middle East peace process, publics in the region have little faith that a way can be found for Israel and an independent Palestinian state to coexist peacefully with each other. Majorities or pluralities in countries across the region voice the view that peaceful coexistence is not possible. And such pessimism is on the rise among many Middle Eastern publics.

 

Seriously, anyone that doesn't know about this reality has not followed the situation in the region for a very long time! Living in the past is not going to cut it, dudes.

 

People in the west can chant two state solution till the cows come home but if the people involved say forget about it, better freakin' listen to them!

Edited February 2, 2023 by Jingthing

[ozimoron]

8 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Unfortunately this is old from 2014 but you can see the trend.

 

Mounting Pessimism about Two-State Israeli-Palestinian Solution | Pew Research Center

Seriously, anyone that doesn't know about this reality has not followed the situation in the region for a very long time! Living in the past is not going to cut it, dudes.

 

People in the west can chant two state solution till the cows come home but if the people involved say forget about it, better freakin' listen to them!

Pessimism doesn't translate into desire. If I were a liberal Israeli or a Palestinian I'd be pessimistic as well. You made a claim that Palestinians no longer desire a two state  solution and now you refuse to substantiate it. This from a member who staunchly requires others to do so. "You've got nothing".

Edited February 2, 2023 by ozimoron

[Jingthing]

People are entitled to their own opinions, but not their own FACTS.

 

29 percent support among "Palestinians"

 

Two state solution isn't even raised as an issue in Israeli elections.

 

Blinken is still pushing it. It's become like a clueless western fetish. Neither side is interested. Time to face REALITY. 

 

Palestinian support for two-state solution losing ground, poll finds - The Jerusalem Post (jpost.com)

Quote

 

Palestinian support for two-state solution losing ground, poll finds

While support for the two-state solution has dropped, the number of Palestinians who support a bi-national state solution has increased.

 

 

[Mac Mickmanus]

3 hours ago, ozimoron said:

You made a claim that Palestinians no longer desire a two state  solution and now you refuse to substantiate it.

Palestinians have never agreed to a two state solution and they have rejected every offer of one 

[ozimoron]

10 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Palestinians have never agreed to a two state solution and they have rejected every offer of one 

Why would they when the Israelis won't give back illegal settlements?

[Mac Mickmanus]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

Why would they when the Israelis won't give back illegal settlements?

The can have a Palestinian state with the settlements .

Two million Palestinian Arabs live in Israel, so there's no reason why 1 Million Israeli Settlers cannot live in the West Bank 

[ozimoron]

2 minutes ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

The can have a Palestinian state with the settlements .

Two million Palestinian Arabs live in Israel, so there's no reason why 1 Million Israeli Settlers cannot live in the West Bank 

Unfortunately zero Palestinians can live in the settlements. And the UN declared them to be illegal.

Edited February 2, 2023 by ozimoron

[ozimoron]

Among the Palestinian public, there is still support for a two-state solution, but more and more people do not believe it is possible. Younger Palestinians increasingly support the idea of a one-state solution because they believe that it will be with equal rights – one-man, one-man vote. We asked the Israeli public about having one state, however, and 80% oppose the idea.

 

https://jewishinsider.com/2022/07/is-a-two-state-solution-viable-today/

[placnx]

On 2/1/2023 at 11:37 PM, Mac Mickmanus said:

You are wrong about that .

   The first proposal of the two state solution was made in the Peel commission in 1937 , which was accepted by the Jews and rejected by the Arabs .

  The two state solution was again proposed in 1947 which was again accepted by the Jews and rejected by the Arabs 

Since you mention the Peel Commission, this Wikipedia entry shows that it was not accepted by all Jews, either, and Ben-Gurion and Weizmann saw it "as a stepping stone to some further expansion and the eventual takeover of the whole of Palestine."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peel_Commission

Arab countries saw it as a betrayal of the promise of an independent Palestine.

 

Furthermore, what really happened in 1948 when 750,000 Palestinians fled from a newly created Israel, came to light in the 1980s through the efforts of Benny Morris: 

https://www.akevot.org.il/en/article/intelligence-brief-from-1948-hidden-for-decades-indicates-jewish-fighters-actions-were-the-major-cause-of-arab-displacement-not-calls-from-arab-leadership/?full 

[placnx]

On 2/1/2023 at 11:50 PM, ozimoron said:

That is the history including the origin. It does not refer to the original partition agreement as the "two state solution"

 

As far as using terrorism for failing to implement the solution, that applies to both sides. Dropping a bomb from an aeroplane onto civilians is still terrorism, just as blowing up a bus is.

Don't forget about the 1994 massacre perpetrated by an American MD on Muslim worshippers in Hebron:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_of_the_Patriarchs_massacre

Edited February 3, 2023 by placnx
typo

[placnx]

On 2/2/2023 at 12:18 PM, Jingthing said:

I agree he is rotten but he's still the leader of Israel and it's an inconvenient truth that at this stage in history NEITHER SIDE has strong support for a two state solution. So REALISTICALLY if people hope for any inprovement, they're going to need to come up with ideas that can realistically gain majority support on both sides. Good luck with that.

If it wants to be a democracy, Israel should have a constitution that assures equal rights to all. Aside from far-right US Evangelicals and ultra Orthodox, most Americans will eventually figure this out.

[placnx]

21 hours ago, Mac Mickmanus said:

Palestinians have never agreed to a two state solution and they have rejected every offer of one 

The Palestinians were hoodwinked into the 1993 Oslo deal, which was supposed to be a two-state solution. In 2002 the Saudis seconded the two-state solution, but the US and Israel ignored them.