NI Protocol: 'Final talks' due between Rishi Sunak and Ursula von der Leyen

[RayC]

2 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

Funny.

 

Personal experiences don't count. But, hey, everything I read in the newspaper is true and honest. 55555

Another interesting interpretation of one of my comments. 

 

I won't ask you to explain how you arrived at your conclusion. I doubt that it will make things any clearer 

[JonnyF]

5 minutes ago, RayC said:

Two wrongs, etc.

 

Data or gut? We seem to differ on what's best again.

I think data is better. However, in the real world not all of the electorate have the data to hand or are even that interested to go and find out. This applies to both sides, I am sure there are both Remainers and Leavers who voted on gut instinct.

 

There are also different priorities. Remainers on the whole don't seem too bothered about sovereignty or agency as long as short term GDP is OK. Some people believe trade deals are the be all and end all of doing business. Some people are fine with the protocols of the EU. I take a different view.  

[youreavinalaff]

14 minutes ago, RayC said:

Another interesting interpretation of one of my comments. 

 

I won't ask you to explain how you arrived at your conclusion. I doubt that it will make things any clearer 

"I quite often have a glance at 'The Mail' and 'The Express'. Doing so, almost invariably confirms that my initial thoughts were correct!"

[RayC]

48 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

"I quite often have a glance at 'The Mail' and 'The Express'. Doing so, almost invariably confirms that my initial thoughts were correct!"

Yes, that's what I wrote. And?

[transam]

1 hour ago, RayC said:

Bit narrow-minded and self-defeating don't you think? 

 

I quite often have a glance at 'The Mail' and 'The Express'. Doing so, almost invariably confirms that my initial thoughts were correct!

No, the Guardian hires the anti-anything writers, years of gandering at their columns has shown me that.....

[placeholder]

47 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

"I quite often have a glance at 'The Mail' and 'The Express'. Doing so, almost invariably confirms that my initial thoughts were correct!"

As you apparently failed to appreciate, this statement was made in response to someone who posted denigratory comments about certain news sources  and stated quite openly that he didn't look at them at all. Yet you seem to have no problem at all with their statement which was far more extreme and gratuitously nasty.

[placeholder]

2 minutes ago, placeholder said:

As you apparently failed to appreciate, this statement was made in response to someone who posted denigratory comments about certain news sources  and stated quite openly that he didn't look at them at all. Yet you seem to have no problem at all with their statement which was far more extreme and gratuitously nasty.

What's more, given RayC's general political stance, would you expect him to mostly agree with what conservative media say? And you will note that Ray c wrote "almost invariably," not invariably.

[transam]

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

His approach exemplifies what I call the Law of the Conservation of Ignorance.

Really, the above is the epitome of narcissism.....

[RayC]

4 hours ago, Hi from France said:

20 or 40 years, this is a distant future, so right now it doesn't matter.

 

Regardless of the fact British public opinion is now one of the most pro-EU in Europe, the UK is out.

 

Issues we could discuss :

 

1.  "what happened to get us there", The Economist  just published a provocative article, that we can read / comment as a starting point (?)
2. "What is going to happen" in the medium term. Long term might be membership in a very federalist Europe or not, but it's too far away to really matter.

I agree with almost everything in 'The Economist' article. My only quibble would be with the title. I agree that Europe has emerged as the winner in the head-to-head with the UK but - as I have mentioned previously - I am firmly in the Barnier camp here: There are no winners, only losers.

 

Perhaps, a better headline would be something like: "Brexit has caused more pain to the UK than the EU".

[placeholder]

5 minutes ago, transam said:

Really, the above is the epitome of narcissism.....

And if I asked you to look up the meaning of narcissism, I suspect the result will be just another instance that further establishes that law's validity.

I do think it's likelya valid case of narcissism could be laid against someone who prefers not only not to know, but engages in abusive language against those sources. You'll note that RayC,  whose comments on these pages are clearly rational, engages in no such abuse of sources that he disagrees with. And he can disagree with them on an intelligent basis since he actually reads them.

[placeholder]

9 minutes ago, RayC said:

I agree with almost everything in 'The Economist' article. My only quibble would be with the title. I agree that Europe has emerged as the winner in the head-to-head with the UK but - as I have mentioned previously - I am firmly in the Barnier camp here: There are no winners, only losers.

 

Perhaps, a better headline would be something like: "Brexit has caused more pain to the UK than the EU".

How about "They who lose least, lose best."

[transam]

3 minutes ago, placeholder said:

And if I asked you to look up the meaning of narcissism, I suspect the result will be just another instance that further establishes that law's validity.

I do think it's likelya valid case of narcissism could be laid against someone who prefers not only not to know, but engages in abusive language against those sources. You'll note that RayC,  whose comments on these pages are clearly rational, engages in no such abuse of sources that he disagrees with. And he can disagree with them on an intelligent basis since he actually reads them.

RayC is not a narcissist, he happens to be a splendid fellow, although we do not see eye to eye on a few things...................................

[placeholder]

2 minutes ago, transam said:

RayC is not a narcissist, he happens to be a splendid fellow, although we do not see eye to eye on a few things...................................

You might try emulating his respect for evidence and his willingness to provide it.

[CG1 Blue]

On 2/27/2023 at 2:13 PM, Chomper Higgot said:

But, as I said first off, let’s see what the deal is and let’s see the response of the extreme rightwing of the Tory Party.

Do you actually know what 'extreme right wing' means? Does JRM have a hidden swastika tattoo I was unaware of? 

Try not to exaggerate - it devalues your comment

[candide]

7 hours ago, JonnyF said:

It's the thin end of the wedge. A creeping federalism. From the original common market to the current EU was a massive change and that change will continue/accelerate over the next couple of decades (assuming the EU lasts that long). The direction of travel is clear for all but the blindest to see. They are heading towards a United States of Europe run by unelected technocrats and many British, myself included did not want to be a part of it.

 

If you're in a bus accelerating towards a cliff edge, it's better to jump out before it's going so fast that it becomes life threatening to do so. Britain did that. We scraped our knees on the tarmac, couple of bruises here and there. But nothing that won't heal over time. Far better than the alternative, being ruled by "selected" rather than elected leaders like Juncker and Von Der Leyen.  

As usual, you are making things up. There is currently no federalism project. Some people are advocating it, there are debates about it, but there is no official project or position to transform the EU Institutions into federal institutions.

[JonnyF]

12 minutes ago, candide said:

As usual, you are making things up. There is currently no federalism project. Some people are advocating it, there are debates about it, but there is no official project or position to transform the EU Institutions into federal institutions.

If you look at the precise definition of federalism you can see it is already happening. The states mentioned below are the EU member states. You can argue whether this is a good or a bad thing, but you can't deny it is happening.

 

[Hi from France]

3 hours ago, JonnyF said:

Quote

we already have a 5-years picture and for the next 5 years investments already tells us the tale: "oven-ready" sunlit uplands? They are not in sight

Ahhh - I see you are able to predict the future. Why didn't you tell us that before? 

I can indeed, anyone can 

 

 

 

for example the future of the British car manufacturing is being set in stone right now,  

Quote

“Ultimately, British car manufacturing will migrate to where the battery factories are, which is going to be in central Europe.”

 

The startup, which struggled to raise funds for a major electric-vehicle battery factory in northern England, failed to get past the stage of developing prototypes for an industry that is vital for the UK’s prospects in the global race to become self-sufficient in EV technology.

 

It has left the UK sorely lacking the battery manufacturing capability that would be absolutely critical to the auto industry’s future. Industry experts estimate Britain needs four to six large battery plants to sustain a healthy car industry. Currently it has one small 1.9 gigawatt-hour Nissan plant in Sunderland, northeast England.

investments today have consequences that extend beyond the present moment. In this regard, we not only have learned a lot since 2016, but we already know what's next in the automotive industry.

 

Is this news to you? Really?

 

[Chomper Higgot]

38 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

Do you actually know what 'extreme right wing' means? Does JRM have a hidden swastika tattoo I was unaware of? 

Try not to exaggerate - it devalues your comment

There are alternatives to ‘Swastikas’.

 

Complete deregulation by wiping out thousands of laws and regulations without Parliamentary oversight being an example 

[sandyf]

7 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

The variety of claims for what the Referendum was about grows by the day.

 

Nobody ever knew what the referendum was about, there was never any comprehensive white paper published before the vote, every Tom, Dick and Harry had nothing but an opinion.

The NI issue was brought up well before the vote but DC was so convinced he would win it, along with other issues, were never brought to the public's attention.

Had there been a white paper there would never have been a protocol to try and fix.

[Hi from France]

1 hour ago, RayC said:

I agree with almost everything in 'The Economist' article. My only quibble would be with the title. I agree that Europe has emerged as the winner in the head-to-head with the UK but - as I have mentioned previously - I am firmly in the Barnier camp here: There are no winners, only losers.

 

Perhaps, a better headline would be something like: "Brexit has caused more pain to the UK than the EU".

economically it's not "more pain", it "much more pain" and to a large extend economy is not just about win-win so we do prefer having japanese automotive plants in the UE rather than the UK

 

 

 

let's have a look

Quote

In 2020 britain devised a new tactic to insult its European neighbours, a long-standing hobby. The diplomat representing the eu in London would henceforth be denied the rank of full ambassador, a courtesy routinely granted to the bloc despite its not being a country. Instead, the Man from Brussels would be granted the lowlier status as an envoy of an international organisation, sending him tumbling down the protocol order. (The plan was later reversed after the eu reciprocated.) Contrast that with this week, when the head of the European Commission, Ursula von der Leyen, was invited to meet King Charles III at Windsor Castle. Forget the tabloid barbs about unelected Eurocrats; a royal aide dubbed her a “world leader” of the sort worthy of high tea. Whatever the opposite of a diplomatic snub is called, this was it.

that was really insulting and these simple things explain why the situation with Northen Ireland is suddenly solved. No magic, just basic courtesy

 

 

 

 

and it works well now, maybe too well

 

Quote

Wonks are currently poring over the “Windsor framework”. It looks like a balanced agreement that allows both sides to save face and move on. Looking at the overall shape of Brexit as it has been haggled over in the past seven years, however, leaves a different impression. Just a glance at the cast present at the final stage of Brexit talks offers a hint of which polity has had a rougher time since talks began. Mr Sunak is Britain’s fifth prime minister since the referendum, and his Conservative Party is headed for a thumping defeat next year, thanks in no small part to endless spats over Brexit. Ms von der Leyen by contrast is just the second person in her job in that time, and will probably get another five-year term next spring. The manner in which Britain left the eu has turned into a national psychodrama; polls indicate most Brits think leaving the club was a mistake. In Brussels dealing with Britain’s latest twist was only an occasional agenda point.

 

@JonnyF do we agree on that one?

 

Quote

Vote Leave campaigners had claimed London would “hold all the cards” in talks with the eu. In fact the opposite turned out to be true. Britain imagined it could craft a way to leave the union but retain the stuff it cared about, like some access to the single market. Or did it? In truth nobody ever worked out what Britain really wanted. Setting priorities was terribly square for the likes of Boris Johnson, the dishevelled foreign-turned-prime minister who steered Britain through much of the haggling. Far better to quip about wanting a cake and eating it too. A rotating cast of Brits arrived in Brexit talks with fuzzy notions of being treated like Switzerland or Ukraine. Opposite them were seasoned Eurocrats carrying weighty briefing packs pointing out why that was not to be.

 

 

 

 

 

Quote

When it came to the nitty-gritty of coming to an agreement on terms, the triumph of the eu side was to play to its reputation as an inflexible bureaucracy capable only of ticking boxes. Countries looking to join the eu are familiar with this approach—here’s what you have to do, now do it—which was broadly recycled for the only country trying to leave it. Once the 27 remaining countries had decided among themselves what they thought was fair, Britain had little choice but to jump through hoops designed by its negotiating foes. The tone was set early on. Britain had to agree to pony up over £35bn ($42bn) to get to the next stage of talks, for example, to fund its share of future Eurocrat pensions. It tried to quibble but ultimately just had to pay. And so it went.

indeed : I am not paying the pension of Farage !

 

 

 

Quote

One last insult for the road

In an irony that slews of discarded Brexit negotiators in London will not have missed, the Windsor deal shows the inflexible-eu approach had been an act all along. It turns out the commission had lots of scope to accede to British demands, and ask for permission from member states later. It just hadn’t wanted to before. Indeed, Britain has achieved a better deal than anyone expected, though that may not be saying much. In part that is because the eu had long ago achieved its main aim: not even the maddest populist on the continent thinks leaving the club would leave it better off nowadays. The departure of Mr Johnson, once a purveyor of souped-up Brussels-bashing stories for the Daily Telegraph, also helped. 

 

 

https://archive.is/Ns7Z1#selection-737.0-753.15

[RayC]

2 hours ago, placeholder said:

What's more, given RayC's general political stance, would you expect him to mostly agree with what conservative media say? And you will note that Ray c wrote "almost invariably," not invariably.

Thanks, I think? I say 'I think' because I'm still none the wiser about what line I've meant to have crossed!?

[metisdead]

Some posts bickering about bloviating and narcissism and the replies have been removed. 

[RayC]

1 hour ago, transam said:

RayC is not a narcissist, he happens to be a splendid fellow, although we do not see eye to eye on a few things...................................

That's very kind of you to say so, Transam.

 

PS Cheque's in the post????

[RayC]

12 minutes ago, RayC said:

If it was another poster's comment why address your reply to me? 

 

I'm still none the wiser!

49 minutes ago, Hi from France said:

economically it's not "more pain", it "much more pain" and to a large extend economy is not just about win-win so we do prefer having japanese automotive plants in the UE rather than the UK

 

 

 

let's have a look

that was really insulting and these simple things explain why the situation with Northen Ireland is suddenly solved. No magic, just basic courtesy

 

 

 

 

and it works well now, maybe too well

 

 

@JonnyF do we agree on that one?

 

 

 

 

 

 

indeed : I am not paying the pension of Farage !

 

 

 

 

 

https://archive.is/Ns7Z1#selection-737.0-753.15

 

@JonnyF: I'll let you deal with this one!????????

[youreavinalaff]

2 hours ago, placeholder said:

As you apparently failed to appreciate, this statement was made in response to someone who posted denigratory comments about certain news sources  and stated quite openly that he didn't look at them at all. Yet you seem to have no problem at all with their statement which was far more extreme and gratuitously nasty.

You fail to appreciate I made a statement about a post in relation to one poster. That poster responded, vaguely.

 

When posters can't admit to what they posted and what it meant, at that time, I tend to leave them in their little world of denial. 

[Hi from France]

4 hours ago, placeholder said:

Absolutely. Which is why the Euro was a mistake. I don't understand why the most recent entrants have adopted it Unless the rules were changed and now they have no choice.

... then maybe the Euro was not at all a mistake (unless croats are total idiots of course)

 

btw I'm extremely happy with the Euro and we're heading for Croatia at Easter with the Euro and the superb scenery, not Portugal/Spain/Italy this year!

[placeholder]

7 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said:

You fail to appreciate I made a statement about a post in relation to one poster. That poster responded, vaguely.

 

When posters can't admit to what they posted and what it meant, at that time, I tend to leave them in their little world of denial. 

If you're referring to this comment from RayC',

"Bit narrow-minded and self-defeating don't you think? 

 

I quite often have a glance at 'The Mail' and 'The Express'. Doing so, almost invariably confirms that my initial thoughts were correct!"

 

which you only partially and misleadingly quoted, I don't know how the word "vague" applies.

[youreavinalaff]

4 minutes ago, placeholder said:

If you're referring to this comment from RayC',

"Bit narrow-minded and self-defeating don't you think? 

 

I quite often have a glance at 'The Mail' and 'The Express'. Doing so, almost invariably confirms that my initial thoughts were correct!"

 

which you only partially and misleadingly quoted, I don't know how the word "vague" applies.

No. I am not referring to a quote I " partially and misleading quoted".

 

I'm referring to the one I quoted in full.

 

Do try to keep up before trying to undermine others.

 

[placeholder]

2 minutes ago, Hi from France said:

... then maybe the Euro was not at all a mistake (unless croats are total idiots of course)

 

btw I'm extremely happy with the Euro and we're heading for Croatia at Easter with the Euro and the superb scenery, not Portugal/Spain/Italy this year!

If you are a French person, I'm not surprised that you are pleased with the Euro.  France gets the benefits and disregards the rules

France routinely has a budget deficit more than the 3% allowed by the EU Euro treaties.

How France gets away with breaking EU rules on its budget deficit every year.

"The European Commission then writes to the French finance minister to express its concern and ask for corrections. The finance minister replies by apologizing profusely, swearing that he or she agrees wholeheartedly with Brussels, but that this year - this year only - France will have to break the rules because of some exceptional circumstances, whatever they are. Then it’s on to the next year, for a routine repeat."

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/how-france-gets-away-with-breaking-eu-rules-on-its-budget-deficit-every-year-2019-10-25

[JonnyF]

1 hour ago, Hi from France said:

I can indeed, anyone can 

 

 

 

for example the future of the British car manufacturing is being set in stone right now,  

investments today have consequences that extend beyond the present moment. In this regard, we not only have learned a lot since 2016, but we already know what's next in the automotive industry.

 

 

Is this news to you? Really?

 

You should provide links, not only screenshots. Unless you are trying to hide the source because it's from some anti British Europhilesrus website like The Guardian.