Joint Bank Account--widow refused access

[Liquorice]

3 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

And when you die the POA dies at the same time also.

It does?
Have you read the conditions of the POA we jointly signed, and how!

Edited March 15, 2023 by Liquorice

[Liverpool Lou]

21 minutes ago, Thalueng said:

If you must, establish a power of attorney to access that bank account for you.

POAs do not continue after the donor's death.

[Liquorice]

1 minute ago, Liverpool Lou said:

POAs do not continue after the donor's death.

Really, can you provide a link to that information, or is it just your opinion.

[Saya Alan]

2 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

what is the best procedure to setup such account to make sure the surviving person has full access without delay.

What I have done is

1. make sure that both parties have access via bank book (both signatures recorded) and a single signature needed to withdraw money. (This will become a problem when the book needs to be renewed amd one party is deceased).

2. Although we have only one ATM card, my wife knows the PIN number and can use it.

3. As others have posted, we plan to inform the bank immediately on the death of either of us and set up a new account in the survivors name.

[Liverpool Lou]

1 minute ago, Liquorice said:

4 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

And when you die the POA dies at the same time also.

It does?
Have you read the conditions of the POA we jointly signed, and how!

Yes, it does and, no, I haven't read yours, I don't need to to know that Powers of Attorney cease on the death of the donor, how and what you signed does not affect the legal aspect of POAs.

[Liverpool Lou]

1 minute ago, Liquorice said:

3 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

POAs do not continue after the donor's death.

Really, can you provide a link to that information, or is it just your opinion.

Yes, really, it is a fact.  Google it.

[Liquorice]

5 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

Yes, it does and, no, I haven't read yours, I don't need to to know that Powers of Attorney cease on the death of the donor, how and what you signed does not affect the legal aspect of POAs.

The POA ends for me, but the wife still has the power to sign for funds or transfer.

I also stated there is a Will in place.
 

[yeahbutif]

1 hour ago, Liquorice said:

For Immigration purposes, the account must be in the foreigner's sole name.
You can add a person to your account though by signing a Power of Attorney form that the bank provides, which gives them access to your account, but on statements, letters etc, only your name appears.
Hell, Bangkok bank even gave my spouse a separate debit card for my account when I gave her POA.

 

To navigate through the Thai Inheritance laws of succession after death, a simple Will suffices as to who inherits the deceased estate and avoids the probate process. (Unless someone contests the Will).

its was bangkok bank sent me an email and said no we dont do POD  ..and avised i get a joint account  and the Kassikone bank  siad we dont do it flat out ..  seems this is like immigration rules seem to be diffrent  for  diffrent people and areas ..  

 

 

Edited March 15, 2023 by yeahbutif

[TimeMachine]

There are two types of joint accounts. Single signature required of either person or both? Which account type was it?

 

[Kwasaki]

2 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

And who pays for the lawyer? And imagine if the bank writes a response and the lawyer has to answer that. More time for the lawyer, a bigger bill for the lawyer. For what? 

OK don't bother doing anything. 

[Kwasaki]

2 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

And who pays for the lawyer? And imagine if the bank writes a response and the lawyer has to answer that. More time for the lawyer, a bigger bill for the lawyer. For what? 

Get advice at least. 

ATA

Upon your case, our legal department is willing to provide one hour of free consultancy prior sending a quotation.

CONTACT US

[Kwasaki]

1 hour ago, Liverpool Lou said:

Lawyers letter to the widow making her aware that years ago she was obligated to inform the bank of the death of the joint account holder.  If she'd done that at the time she would not have the issue that she has now.

That's not how It understood OP.

[Gandtee]

This raises the question of the Bt800.000 deposited in a fixed account for visa purposes. If the the holder dies can his legitimate spouse withdraw it on production of a Thai death certificate or withdraw it with the ATM card? Should she report her spouse's death to the bank? 

[Andycoops]

5 hours ago, prakhonchai nick said:

Just one party.  As I said above she had been witdrawing regularly in the bank branch - until the book was full

And now the book is full excuse from the bank, I smell a rat as we've seen all to recently here with bank employees.

I would get a lawyer on the case PDQ...

[Freddy42OZ]

5 hours ago, scorecard said:

You mention they had a joint savings account.

Just to be clear, gets the facts right, is the joint savings account set up

- So that both parties must sign a withdrawal slip?

- Only one party needs to sign?

 

 

I hope it's not both parties as one of them is dead.

[TimeMachine]

I've faced problems in Australia while trying to use power of attorney. Third parties simply don't like to rely on the paper you hand to them. It should by law allow me to act as if I am that person but it hasn't been like that for me. The rule is anything goes depending on which human you deal with and on what day. That's the real law. Good luck anyhow. 

[Liquorice]

2 hours ago, Gandtee said:

This raises the question of the Bt800.000 deposited in a fixed account for visa purposes. If the the holder dies can his legitimate spouse withdraw it on production of a Thai death certificate or withdraw it with the ATM card? Should she report her spouse's death to the bank? 

If you ask a bank, they'll tell you most Thais are aware of their spouse ATM card PIN's and withdraw the maximum daily amount until empty, before they notify the bank of their demise. Provided you are the sole beneficiary of the estate under law, then there is no comeback.
This is where making a Will is a necessity IMO.

[hotandsticky]

14 minutes ago, Liquorice said:

If you ask a bank, they'll tell you most Thais are aware of their spouse ATM card PIN's and withdraw the maximum daily amount until empty, before they notify the bank of their demise. Provided you are the sole beneficiary of the estate under law, then there is no comeback.
This is where making a Will is a necessity IMO.

Obviously, in an intestate situation the widow is probably not the sole beneficiary and such action is 'illegal' (as it is on any joint account if you claim that rules of survivorship don't apply in Thailand - although there would be no practical comeback).

 

That said, my partner will have card (and eventually PIN + internet) access to my account so she can empty the account. I also have a simple Will as a back up if Plan A fails. 

[Liverpool Lou]

5 hours ago, Liquorice said:

5 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

Yes, it does and, no, I haven't read yours, I don't need to to know that Powers of Attorney cease on the death of the donor, how and what you signed does not affect the legal aspect of POAs.

Expand  

The POA ends for me

That's what I said, your POA ends on your death, as does it's authority to any agent.

[NanLaew]

6 hours ago, hotandsticky said:

7 hours ago, NanLaew said:

Also check the small print to see what the banks policy on surviving signatories in the event of one or the other's early passing?

 

It's not a 'Thailand thing' either. When my father passed away in Scotland, there was quite a bit of a paper chasing for mum to maintain access to the funds in the joint account they held at the same branch for 56 years. A branch where their ONLY banking transactions were personal walk-in jobs. The staff were duly respectful but their rules insisted that the paper trail be completed before she could become the sole account holder. At that juncture, we decided that my sister obtain power of attorney for mum's estate and that helped immensely with withdrawing money and closing the account when she also passed away a few years later.

 

All mandates cease on death.

 

In the UK a joint account does not form part of the deceased's estate and the survivor is entitled to the residual balance under the rules of survivorship.

Correct. Note that I said the paper chase was needed to maintain my mothers access to the account. She had access to the funds immediately after my father passed and the local branch staff were absolute stars when it came to support at a tumultuous time. But, they still had to be formally notified of my father's passing and steps taken to ensure that she had enduring access to these funds under the rules of survivorship. If they hadn't been notified, she would have had an issue if a new debit card or check book was needed or canceling one of her late husband's standing orders.

[khaepmu]

Can joint bank account avoid probate?

Joint bank accounts also permit money to pass outside a person's Estate to the joint account holder, which avoids the need for those funds to go through the probate process. A bank account passes to directly to the surviving account holder by what is known as a “right of survivorship”.Feb 26, 2561 BE

 

 

This was sent to me by a friend. Don't know where he got it from,  and not sure if it is a Thai or foreign source.

[fittobethaied]

Joint Bank Account Rules on Death:

When a joint account is created, it's usually set up as "Joint With Rights of Survivorship" (JWORS). This means that, upon the death of one account holder, the assets are transferred to the surviving account holder.

 

Rights of Survivorship: 

Most accounts carry automatic rights of survivorship, but it's a good idea to check with your financial institution to ensure that this is the case for your joint account. You may have to sign additional documents to indicate that this is what you want.

The surviving owner would continue to have full access to the money even if the co-owner of the joint checking account were to die, as long as the account carries these rights. 

 

It is my understanding that joint accounts in Thailand DO NOT have "Rights of Survivorship" which means that in the absence of a Last Will and Testament, under Thai inheritance laws 

there are 6 classes of statutory heirs, and they are entitled to inherit in the following order:

descendants

parents

brothers and sisters of full blood

brothers and sisters of half blood

grandparents

uncles and aunts

The surviving spouse is a statutory heir, subject to the special provisions of Section 1635 Civil and Commercial Code.

 

Therefore, I would strongly suggest that you check with the widow's bank to see if the joint account has Rights of Survivorship. It not, then that is the problem. However, I seriously doubt that any bank employee, including the manager, would have a clue what you are talking about. You'd better ask to speak with the bank's attorney. There is always one on call, so don't let them tell you otherwise. 

 

Edited March 16, 2023 by fittobethaied

[yeahbutif]

22 hours ago, Liquorice said:

It does?
Have you read the conditions of the POA we jointly signed, and how!

What bank for a POD please 

[yeahbutif]

1 hour ago, fittobethaied said:

Joint Bank Account Rules on Death:

When a joint account is created, it's usually set up as "Joint With Rights of Survivorship" (JWORS). This means that, upon the death of one account holder, the assets are transferred to the surviving account holder.

 

Rights of Survivorship: 

Most accounts carry automatic rights of survivorship, but it's a good idea to check with your financial institution to ensure that this is the case for your joint account. You may have to sign additional documents to indicate that this is what you want.

The surviving owner would continue to have full access to the money even if the co-owner of the joint checking account were to die, as long as the account carries these rights. 

 

It is my understanding that joint accounts in Thailand DO NOT have "Rights of Survivorship" which means that in the absence of a Last Will and Testament, under Thai inheritance laws 

there are 6 classes of statutory heirs, and they are entitled to inherit in the following order:

descendants

parents

brothers and sisters of full blood

brothers and sisters of half blood

grandparents

uncles and aunts

The surviving spouse is a statutory heir, subject to the special provisions of Section 1635 Civil and Commercial Code.

 

Therefore, I would strongly suggest that you check with the widow's bank to see if the joint account has Rights of Survivorship. It not, then that is the problem. However, I seriously doubt that any bank employee, including the manager, would have a clue what you are talking about. You'd better ask to speak with the bank's attorney. There is always one on call, so don't let them tell you otherwise. 

 

So as I understand this? Thai lady dies husband falang only gets a share? Not 100% of the Thai wifes assets so if there are 6 densendaces he will only get one 6th of her astate? With or without a will...?

[OJAS]

On 3/15/2023 at 1:14 PM, Liquorice said:

As I've been stating.
There is a legal procedure to follow to have foreign documents authenticated to be acceptable as genuine by Thai authorities.

Indeed there is. As far as UK documents are concerned this procedure is spelt out in the following links:-

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/714089/Legalisation_info_June_2018.pdf

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/714090/Legalisation_info_graphic_June_2018.pdf

 

I only hope for the widow's sake that any surviving family members of her late husband will be willing and able to help her out as necessary at the UK end in getting his death certificate legalised!

 

Edited March 16, 2023 by OJAS

[prakhonchai nick]

SUCCESS

Yesterday I met with the bank manager and explained the problem to him, and the fact that the widow had provided all that had been asked for, incuding locally notarised documents. He was concerned that the matter had not been settled promptly and promised to look into it urgently.

 

This morning the widow was summoned to the bank, the account was closed, and she was given the account balance plus accrued interest.

 

Now to deal with the UK pension provider and ensure future pension payments are made to her new sole account.

[Gandtee]

On 3/15/2023 at 6:40 PM, hotandsticky said:

Obviously, in an intestate situation the widow is probably not the sole beneficiary and such action is 'illegal' (as it is on any joint account if you claim that rules of survivorship don't apply in Thailand - although there would be no practical comeback).

 

That said, my partner will have card (and eventually PIN + internet) access to my account so she can empty the account. I also have a simple Will as a back up if Plan A fails. 

Not to labour too fine a point, but can an instruction to the bank be made to insert a clause in your account stating that your lawful wife will be able to have access to it on the production of a death certificate?

[JimGant]

On 3/15/2023 at 11:42 AM, Liverpool Lou said:

Proof of death provided years after his death and only when she was forced to provide it, yes?  By law, she is obligated to inform the bank of the death of its account holder at the time of his death.

She was forced to provide it in order to get a new joint account passbook, or to cancel the joint account. But she, as a joint "either/or" account holder, could continue to drain the joint account legally (with no need of a passbook, as it's filled, to do so -- just provide the withdrawal slip at the counter) Also, there is no Thai law that freezes joint accounts upon death of one owner, contrary to what we sometimes see on this forum on the many vast Will discussions. Instead, Thailand adheres to the "joint tenant with right of survivorship (JTWROS) concept, common in the West, and accepted here, where the remaining joint owner of a bank account gets 100%, with no probate needed. Thus certainly no off-base bank administrator dictating the freezing of such a joint account should be adhered to. But, hey, what can you do in such circumstances....

[Liverpool Lou]

29 minutes ago, JimGant said:

On 3/15/2023 at 11:42 AM, Liverpool Lou said:

Proof of death provided years after his death and only when she was forced to provide it, yes?  By law, she is obligated to inform the bank of the death of its account holder at the time of his death.

Expand  

She was forced to provide it in order to get a new joint account passbook, or to cancel the joint account. But she, as a joint "either/or" account holder, could continue to drain the joint account legally

"...she, as a joint "either/or" account holder, could continue to drain the joint account legally".

Not without advising the bank of the death of the joint account holder, she couldn't.   Deaths have to be advised to institutions such as banks, that's why they asked for it now!

[JimGant]

18 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

"...she, as a joint "either/or" account holder, could continue to drain the joint account legally".

Not without advising the bank of the death of the joint account holder, she couldn't.   Deaths have to be advised to institutions such as banks, that's why they asked for it now!

Certainly not covered in the Thai Civil and Commercial Code -- and most certainly not in the Criminal Code.

 

No one is responsible for notifying a bank of an account holder's death -- not the police; not the tessaban, where the death certificate is issued; and not the embassy of the foreigner -- as if they would even have the foggiest of where the deceased banked. Now it is conceivable that a hospital, where the deceased wracked up substantial bills, would have an interest in identifying the deceased's bank, then notifying the bank of the death, in hopes that the bank had a policy on freezing all accounts, including joint, upon death..... But no one is required to notify the bank of the death of an account holder, including a joint account holder.

 

There's apparently some confusion amongst the banks and bank managers about what to do when a joint owner dies, if they're so notified. The "right of survivorship" is quite possibly an individual bank's policy, as it's not apparent in the law anywhere I can find. Thus, when certain banks become aware of the death of a joint owner, they'll freeze that account and await probation, same as if it were a single account. But this would seem to be the exception, as a simple search most often finds this answer about Thai joint accounts:

 

Quote

If you hold a Thai bank account jointly with your spouse then the account will go to your spouse; if you are the sole owner of the account it will be frozen until after the will is probated and your spouse will not have access to the funds.

https://www.sunbeltasia.com/writing-a-will-in-thailand

But as this thread's OP has shown, and what various Will articles over the years on this forum have shown -- best to clean out the joint account upon the death of a joint owner, lest word of the death reaches the ears of a confused bank manager. Certainly nothing illegal about this, as you, the joint owner, have no legal obligation to notify the bank of the joint account holder's death.