Warning, Keto, low carb

[JensenZ]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

I love links. They dispel mere opinions and provide scientific basis to arguments.

They do not. Links need to be checked and cross-checked and can spread lots of BS (your favourite word). There's more than enough marketing BS on the WWW. What you didn't grasp is that a true scientific study of real HIIT vs slow or moderate cardio is impossible due to the range of programs and length of programs that can be designed. How long, how intense, what exercise, how often. 

 

At the end of the day, make your choice. I didn't preclude the idea of using HIIT for everyone, but for people who are not in condition and old. You are definitely not fit to use HIIT. I suspected you were doing a dumbed down version of HIIT, so in reality it's not true HIIT. You are doing moderate cardio and light resistance work. That's good! Keep it up!

 

 

[ozimoron]

3 minutes ago, JensenZ said:

They do not. Links need to be checked and cross-checked and can spread lots of BS (your favourite word). There's more than enough marketing BS on the WWW. What you didn't grasp is that a true scientific study of real HIIT vs slow or moderate cardio is impossible due to the range of programs and length of programs that can be designed. How long, how intense, what exercise, how often. 

 

At the end of the day, make your choice. I didn't preclude the idea of using HIIT for everyone, but for people who are not in condition and old. You are definitely not fit to use HIIT. I suspected you were doing a dumbed down version of HIIT, so in reality it's not true HIIT. You are doing moderate cardio and light resistance work. That's good! Keep it up!

 

 

You specifically claimed that HiiT was not suitable for the elderly. It was not a nuanced claim.

 

I train to the point of failure at the end of each routine of three sets. Thanks for the encouragement ????

Edited April 7, 2023 by ozimoron

[Hummin]

1 minute ago, JensenZ said:

They do not. Links need to be checked and cross-checked and can spread lots of BS (your favourite word). There's more than enough marketing BS on the WWW. What you didn't grasp is that a true scientific study of real HIIT vs slow or moderate cardio is impossible due to the range of programs and length of programs that can be designed. How long, how intense, what exercise, how often. 

 

At the end of the day, make your choice. I didn't preclude the idea of using HIIT for everyone, but for people who are not in condition and old. You are definitely not fit to use HIIT. I suspected you were doing a dumbed down version of HIIT, so in reality it's not true HIIT. You are doing moderate cardio and light resistance work. That's good! Keep it up!

 

 

I think we have drifted far away from the op topic and just bickering on details. 

 

The most important is to get up and do something, not to much, and not to little. 

 

If you think you know best, then do not expect anyone to change your mind, still adopt to new information and new knownledge can be a good thing sometimes.

 

Good luck

 

 

[JensenZ]

8 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

The best exercise regimen, as far as I know, if lifting weights no more than 3 days a week.

And then do low intensity cardio on days when you're not lifting. This will help the body to recover. 

So you're not being sedentary on off-days. You're doing low intensity cardio.

 

Good advice. I do a combination of walking and machine cardio (rowing, Skiing and Cybex Arc trainer), and weights for 6 days a week with one rest day. Most importantly I closely monitor my body's response to the exercise and make adjustments if I'm not recovering sufficiently. At my age (in 60's) it's important to maintain painfree joints (knees, shoulders, back etc), so the choice of exercises is more limited that it was in my youth. Body feedback is the most important aspect of my program. When I do slow to moderate cardio, I monitor my heart rate and maintain it between 125 to 140. You don't need HIIT to raise the level of you heart rate, but instead of raising it for 30 seconds or so, I would raise it and keep it raised for longer periods.

[JensenZ]

4 minutes ago, Hummin said:

I think we have drifted far away from the op topic and just bickering on details. 

 

The most important is to get up and do something, not to much, and not to little. 

 

If you think you know best, then do not expect anyone to change your mind, still adopt to new information and new knownledge can be a good thing sometimes.

 

Good luck

You might have missed it. This bickering was a result of a reply started with "complete BS". That's a sure fire way of ruining a good thread. My apologies if it went on too long.

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, JensenZ said:

You might have missed it. This bickering was a result of a reply started with "complete BS". That's a sure fire way of ruining a good thread. My apologies if it went on too long.

Your uncategorical claim that HiiT is not for the elderly was just that. Own it.

[JensenZ]

11 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

You specifically claimed that HiiT was not suitable for the elderly. It was not a nuanced claim.

 

I train to the point of failure at the end of each routine of three sets. Thanks for the encouragement ????

Some elderly people can do it safely. Some elderly people are very fit and have exercised for a very large part of their lives. Most elderly people are not fit and many have never done much exercise. In these cases, there are better and safer ways to exercise.

 

I've never stopped exercising since I was 15 years old - I can do HIIT, but I believe my program is far superior.

 

About training to the point of failure. This is not necessary. You can get stronger without pushing to failure. I never push to failure, but I get stronger. Actually you will get stronger faster if you leave something in the tank. The risk of injury increases exponentially as you reach failure. Train injury free and don't push to failure.

 

[JensenZ]

7 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Your uncategorical claim that HiiT is not for the elderly was just that. Own it.

I don't believe "elderly" was categorized. I didn't expect some newby who knows it all to reply "complete BS". Had I known, I would have spent more time explaining my reasoning.

 

I will absolutely own the comment that HIIT is not for you. Come back in one year and we'll see how you're going.

Edited April 7, 2023 by JensenZ

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, JensenZ said:

Some elderly people can do it safely. Some elderly people are very fit and have exercised for a very large part of their lives. Most elderly people are not fit and many have never done much exercise. In these cases, there are better and safer ways to exercise.

 

I've never stopped exercising since I was 15 years old - I can do HIIT, but I believe my program is far superior.

 

About training to the point of failure. This is not necessary. You can get stronger without pushing to failure. I never push to failure, but I get stronger. Actually you will get stronger faster if you leave something in the tank. The risk of injury increases exponentially as you reach failure. Train injury free and don't push to failure.

 

Had this been your original post I would not have labelled your post as BS. I still maintain that most elderly who are generally fairly healthy can benefit from HiiT as the evidence appears to show. Obviously they need to start slow.

 

In my case I did what the personal trainer told me to do. He studies physical fitness and so I trust him. I initially suffered some muscle soreness (a lot actually) over the first couple of weeks) but subsequently have had little to none. He insists that the failure is important and I have substantiated that in my reading, damaging the muscle and allowing it to recover is beneficial. His advice was to not be too concerned by muscle soreness as long as there's no joint soreness.

 

I'm not that concerned by getting stronger or bigger muscles. I want to stave of insulin resistance and enjoy generally improved health. All of this was triggered by reading that HiiT and strength training is very effective at preventing alzheimers, probably the biggest killer of the elderly after cancer and cv disease.

 

High intensity interval training could boost health and lifespan for adults over 70, according to a new study.

 

Researchers found that people who did strenuous exercise twice a week had better mental and physical health and fitness than those who did moderate exercise. 

 

They were also slightly less likely to die during the five-year period, suggesting HIIT could potentially extend lifespan, in addition to improving quality of life.

 

https://www.insider.com/study-high-intensity-workouts-boost-health-in-people-over-70-2020-10

 

At the conclusion of the trial, 4.6% of the participants had died, but there was no significant difference in death rates between the group that followed the modest federal exercise recommendations and the two groups that did the more intense workouts. In addition, all groups had similar levels of cardiovascular disease and deaths from cancer. However, that's not to say that participating in regular high-intensity workouts wasn't linked to any benefits. The participants who did the harder workouts had better outcomes on certain measures of mental health and physical fitness.

 

https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/harder-workout-intensity-may-not-increase-your-longevity

 

https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/harder-workout-intensity-may-not-increase-your-longevity

[ozimoron]

10 minutes ago, JensenZ said:

I don't believe "elderly" was categorized. I didn't expect some newby who knows it all to reply "complete BS". Had I known, I would have spent more time explaining my reasoning.

 

I will absolutely own the comment that HIIT is not for you. Come back in one year and we'll see how you're going.

By uncategorical, I meant that you did not qualify your opinion. You just claimed HiiT was not suitable for the elderly which I believe to be wrong.

 

It's been 4 months and I feel good. I never said I knew it all but you claimed you did compared to me. I will wager the gym I attend is better than your own gym ????

[ozimoron]

The evidence for HiiT is never ending.

 

High Intensity Interval Training: A Potential Method for Treating Sarcopenia

 

Sarcopenia, an age-related disease characterized by loss of muscle strength and muscle mass, has attracted the attention of medical experts due to its severe morbidity, low living quality, high expenditure of health care, and mortality. Traditionally, persistent aerobic exercise (PAE) is considered as a valid way to attenuate muscular atrophy. However, nowadays, high intensity interval training (HIIT) has emerged as a more effective and time-efficient method to replace traditional exercise modes. HIIT displays comprehensive effects on exercise capacity and skeletal muscle metabolism, and it provides a time-out for the recovery of cardiopulmonary and muscular functions without causing severe adverse effects.

 

https://www.dovepress.com/high-intensity-interval-training-a-potential-method-for-treating-sarco-peer-reviewed-fulltext-article-CIA

[JensenZ]

4 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

By uncategorical, I meant that you did not qualify your opinion. You just claimed HiiT was not suitable for the elderly which I believe to be wrong.

 

It's been 4 months and I feel good. I never said I knew it all but you claimed you did compared to me. I will wager the gym I attend is better than your own gym ????

 You said you've been at it for several months and you feel good. I took that as 2 months.

 

If I don't know more about training in gyms after 50 years vs your 4 months, I should shoot myself. I've trained all over the world and in my own gyms.

 

The comment about your gym being better than mine is absurd. You will have more equipment in a public gym. I will wager any amount you wish that my workouts in my home gym are superior to yours. It's not the equipment, but what you do with it that counts. Let me know how you want to setup the wager - I'm all in.

[scubascuba3]

44 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

what claim did I not support with a link?

You said if you don't post a link "That generally means it can't be supported" which is BS, it means we can't be bothered to do your homework for you, stop being lazy and do some research 

[ozimoron]

2 minutes ago, JensenZ said:

 You said you've been at it for several months and you feel good. I took that as 2 months.

 

If I don't know more about training in gyms after 50 years vs your 4 months, I should shoot myself. I've trained all over the world and in my own gyms.

 

The comment about your gym being better than mine is absurd. You will have more equipment in a public gym. I will wager any amount you wish that my workouts in my home gym are superior to yours. It's not the equipment, but what you do with it that counts. Let me know how you want to setup the wager - I'm all in.

I don't doubt that your workouts are superior to mine. I wasn't attacking your exercise regime, you were attacking mine. Neither of us is wrong but I believe I have provided sufficient proof that your claim that HiiT was not suitable for the elderly was just plain wrong. My condo has a gym but the one I pay to attend is far better equipped and has much more modern equipment. I prefer machines to free weights at this stage in my training as they reduce the chance of joint and back damage.

[ozimoron]

3 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

You said if you don't post a link "That generally means it can't be supported" which is BS, it means we can't be bothered to do your homework for you, stop being lazy and do some research 

The rule doesn't say "go check everybody else's claims yourself or accept them". It says you must supply a link to any claim of fact. Telling somebody to not be lazy is not only being lazy but is a cop out on your personal responsibility to respect other s by debating in good faith.

[JensenZ]

3 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

I don't doubt that your workouts are superior to mine. I wasn't attacking your exercise regime, you were attacking mine. Neither of us is wrong but I believe I have provided sufficient proof that your claim that HiiT was not suitable for the elderly was just plain wrong. My condo has a gym but the one I pay to attend is far better equipped and has much more modern equipment. I prefer machines to free weights at this stage in my training as they reduce the chance of joint and back damage.

My gym is not big (25m2 - a normal bedroom size), but the cardio machines are the best you can get.

 

The risk of injury using an HIIT program is far higher than a more gentle cardio routine - risk of injury and cardiac accidents and other. This is not even a debate as it's so obvious. Do a study of injuries using HIIT vs more gentle regimes.

 

It's a no brainer which is more dangerous. Obviously it's not the best choice for elderly people. Sustaining it long-term will likely be more difficult too, but that's another debate. It's hard to push to high intensity level week after week, month after month, and you're more likely to miss workouts in the long run as there's a natural resistance to high intensity exercise vs gentle exercise. You'll be learning this hard fact after you've been at it a bit longer.

 

The main difference is you push your heatrate up quickly doing strenuous exercise for short bursts whereas I raise it slowly and steadily, probably to similar levels but without the same risk of injury. It might take me 10 - 15 minutes or longer to reach the same HR that you reach in seconds. My heart is working more steadily and efficiently and I'm not producing oxygen debt at probably a higher level of work.

 

Overall my workout requires more effort and burns more calories, and is more sustainable long term.

[ozimoron]

22 minutes ago, JensenZ said:

My gym is not big (25m2 - a normal bedroom size), but the cardio machines are the best you can get.

 

The risk of injury using an HIIT program is far higher than a more gentle cardio routine - risk of injury and cardiac accidents and other. This is not even a debate as it's so obvious. Do a study of injuries using HIIT vs more gentle regimes.

 

It's a no brainer which is more dangerous. Obviously it's not the best choice for elderly people. Sustaining it long-term will likely be more difficult too, but that's another debate. It's hard to push to high intensity level week after week, month after month, and you're more likely to miss workouts in the long run as there's a natural resistance to high intensity exercise vs gentle exercise. You'll be learning this hard fact after you've been at it a bit longer.

 

The main difference is you push your heatrate up quickly doing strenuous exercise for short bursts whereas I raise it slowly and steadily, probably to similar levels but without the same risk of injury. It might take me 10 - 15 minutes or longer to reach the same HR that you reach in seconds. My heart is working more steadily and efficiently and I'm not producing oxygen debt at probably a higher level of work.

 

Overall my workout requires more effort and burns more calories, and is more sustainable long term.

Whatever, I have no opinion about the heart rate issue and that wasn't what the argument was about, you came out and declared that HiiT wasn't good for the elderly no matter what. That's clearly wrong from the evidence I produced. You can't seem to own the fact that you were at least a little abaft of the beam on that. It's obviously not your preferred form of gym training and you decided to push that opinion in a contrarian manner. You could have simply explained what you do and why you do it but you didn't. I note and appreciate that you since have done so to some degree.

[save the frogs]

1 hour ago, ozimoron said:

I don't doubt that your workouts are superior to mine.

My general feeling about most Westerners is that they are extremists.

They are either slobs or, when they decide to get fit, go nuts and over-do it. 

I think a lot of people would do well to pick up an Eastern practice - yoga or Qi Gong - to see that gentle, slow exercise is good.

 

[ozimoron]

4 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

My general feeling about most Westerners is that they are extremists.

They are either slobs or, when they decide to get fit, go nuts and over-do it. 

I think a lot of people would do well to pick up an Eastern practice - yoga or Qi Gong - to see that gentle, slow exercise is good.

 

I believe those have significant benefits along with meditation for calming stress and clearing the mind. I think they are a useful adjunct to exercise rather than as replacement for exercise. I do believe in the middle path and I think my exercise routines, diet and fasting reflect that. I choose a routine which I know I can sustain and stick to. Now and again I have short breaks but not for long.

[ozimoron]

This new video is worth watching for gym rats and is very much in line with what my Thai gym personal trainer taught me. Looking forward to any contrarian opinions supported with reasoning.

 

I know we've drifted off topic to some degree but I think that diet, fasting and exercise are inextricably linked and all are part of a good health lifestyle.

 

 

Edited April 7, 2023 by ozimoron

[Hummin]

31 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

This new video is worth watching for gym rats and is very much in line with what my Thai gym personal trainer taught me. Looking forward to any contrarian opinions supported with reasoning.

 

I know we've drifted off topic to some degree but I think that diet, fasting and exercise are inextricably linked and all are part of a good health lifestyle.

 

 

The contact with your muscle group you training, as well time under stress is essential as well variation. It takes time, understanding and feeling as well before training visualize what you are going to perform. Some is talented, and manage and learn quick, while others just lifting weights, and thats it.

 

You might enjoy this one

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6950543/

[ozimoron]

7 minutes ago, Hummin said:

The contact with your muscle group you training, as well time under stress is essential as well variation. It takes time, understanding and feeling as well before training visualize what you are going to perform. Some is talented, and manage and learn quick, while others just lifting weights, and thats it.

 

You might enjoy this one

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6950543/

This is particularly interesting and implies that complete failure is neither necessary or desirable for maximum benefit.

 

Evidence indicates that significant muscle growth occurs when the majority of training sets are performed with ~3–4 repetitions in reserve (with moderate to high-loads) [19]. Furthermore, it has been established that the volume of RT, defined as the total number of repetitions (repetitions x sets), together with loads used for a given exercise, is the key element of adaptation in terms of muscle hypertrophy; moreover, it has been suggested that higher volumes of effort are warranted for maximizing muscle growth response in diverse populations

[markclover]

I've recently discovered the term "dad bod" as in dad body.  Eat what you want but do exercise and some weights.  Seems to be a good deal.

[ozimoron]

7 minutes ago, markclover said:

I've recently discovered the term "dad bod" as in dad body.  Eat what you want but do exercise and some weights.  Seems to be a good deal.

Looks more like a recipe for "dead bod".

[Hummin]

10 minutes ago, markclover said:

I've recently discovered the term "dad bod" as in dad body.  Eat what you want but do exercise and some weights.  Seems to be a good deal.

Dad body suits those in their 30 and 40'ies, for then make up for wasted time in their 50'ies ????

[save the frogs]

1 hour ago, ozimoron said:

This new video is worth watching for gym rats

he is very well built. 

that's what we should be striving for.

but i'm not there ... yet .. and maybe never will be.

[TravelerEastWest]

16 hours ago, Hummin said:

I think we have drifted far away from the op topic and just bickering on details. 

 

The most important is to get up and do something, not to much, and not to little. 

 

If you think you know best, then do not expect anyone to change your mind, still adopt to new information and new knownledge can be a good thing sometimes.

 

Good luck

 

 

I like your post!

[BigStar]

Seems to be confusion here between HIT and HIIT. Here are the commonly accepted definitions:

 

https://www.theperfectworkout.com/high-intensity-training/

 

 

[connda]

There is another side to the benefits of Keto when used as an adjunct to weigh loss, insulin normalization, and other health benefits. 
A thorough discussion of the potential benefits of a ketogenic diet can be found in this study:
The Potential Health Benefits of the Ketogenic Diet: A Narrative Review
Kathryn Dowis and Simran Banga
National Library of Medicine
Nutrients. 2021 May; 13(5): 1654.
Published online 2021 May 13. doi: 10.3390/nu13051654
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8153354/
Summary:
Considering the lack of a comprehensive, multi-faceted overview of the ketogenic diet (KD) in relation to health issues, we compiled the evidence related to the use of the ketogenic diet in relation to its impact on the microbiome, the epigenome, diabetes, weight loss, cardiovascular health, and cancer.

The the flip side, whatever most Westerners consider to be a normal diet is probably more dangerous as obesity and overweightedness is rampant in the US.

"According to 2017–2018 data from the National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey (NHANES)

Nearly 1 in 3 adults (30.7%) are overweight.

More than 2 in 5 adults (42.4%) have obesity.

About 1 in 11 adults (9.2%) have severe obesity.
Source: https://www.niddk.nih.gov/health-information/health-statistics/overweight-obesity"

I'm currently doing three month Keto diet and have done so in the past as well as fasting and intermittent fasting.  Keto and fasting are "bio-hacks" and they have a place in the maintenance to good health if practiced in moderation - in my humble opinion.  For those who have never done them before, it's best to connect with a doctor or medical clinic which promotes these activities as part of a well rounded approach to holistic health and nutrition prior to engaging in these activities.

Regarding bio-hacking, check out Dr. Rhonda Patrick's web site, "Found My Fitness." (Google it) 

[Hummin]

9 minutes ago, connda said:

The the flip side, whatever most Westerners consider to be a normal diet is probably more dangerous as obesity and overweightedness is rampant in the US.

 

It is okay to be smart when you consider a balanced diet, and simple eat less or no junk and sugar products.

 

Clean meat, fish, vegetables and little fruit and nuts. These ingredients have everything you need, and if you add eggs and some dairy products, you have it all complete. 

 

If you have health problems and also a weight problem, then you should consult a dr and solve the issue together in the best way with as little medication as possible.

 

One thing I can not urge enough, is that people who face weight problems and health issues, in most cases have an lifestyle problem that leads to weight and health issues.

 

If you have health problems, the  cutting alchohol and sugar is a very good start, as well teach yourself to go early to bed, and wake up early, and start your day doing some few exercises.

 

Keto is good short term! Not a lifelong solution. 

 

So simple, but still so hard,