Expensive Ceremonies - Required or Not?

[Danderman123]

A lady I know is being bankrupted by the upcoming ordination of her son as a monk. He is doing the 9 day express package, but it's still going to be a big event with 80 guests.

 

The lady claims the big event is necessary, but the cost is driving her to tears (no, I am not paying a satang for her).

 

The question is whether such an event is really necessary; if so, can it be pared back?

 

But also, I noticed that many life events in Isaan require big expensive celebrations, centered around a temple. This seems to force much of the population into poverty.

[KannikaP]

They've got to show their neighbours/family that they are well off. Same for weddings.

Usually they get a lot of it back from guests who make a hidden donation in an envelope.

[Bluetongue]

My nephew just had one the other day. The shaving ceremony was done at the temple with many other novices, this saved the expense of having a function at home, the family still took food along and shared it with other families and guests, but there was no alcohol.

Then at home that night a self catered function took place at home with small amount of alcohol, the mother and aunts brewed Sato which the band and others drank. Then the following day we all accompanied him to the temple for the robing, where his supporters literally carry him inside after they all toss the coins which have been painstakingly wrapped in colourful ribbons in the weeks and months beforehand. Also everything must be supplied, his robes accoutrements, flowers, presents to the monk, the announcer, parking attendants yada yada. This can be pared down with a smaller function, right back to all of the different elements being carried out at the wat

The most expensive versions in Isaan are "tot jeen" where it is a catered 7 course meal with the caterer supplying everything, table service, stage, dancers, speeches etc, lots of alcohol and several hundred people, also be no change out of 250k. It's hard to say what locals think of the lesser version, not as many of them turned up that's for sure. For their envelope with 200baht or more they want the meal and the lao.

[KannikaP]

3 hours ago, KannikaP said:

They've got to show their neighbours/family that they are well off. Same for weddings.

Usually they get a lot of it back from guests who make a hidden donation in an envelope.

I don't know who found this SAD, but I can assure you from personal experience with both Monkhoods and Weddings, it is true.

[scorecard]

20 hours ago, KannikaP said:

I don't know who found this SAD, but I can assure you from personal experience with both Monkhoods and Weddings, it is true.

Here's a twist. My Thai DIL has a loud full on, mid aged, always interfering lady boy big brother.

 

Lady boy is totally convinced that all farang are rich beyond belief with no limits. He's asked my son many times for big cash handouts, for a condo and a BM with uniformed chauffeur. Son just says no and changes the subject.

 

A nearby neighbor died and this prompted lady boy to ask my son for 500,000Baht so he coud be ready to organize my funeral, the party, chines style 10 course outdoors dinner, etc. Son refused and told him 'when dad passes away I will take care of all arrangements and I forbid you from getting involved in any way. If you do spend any money I will not reimburse you.

 

Lady boy reacted with shock and told the world about his converstaion with my son and how hwas was insulted at being spoken to so directly.

 

His claim was 'But xxxx we must have a big party to impress everybody, make the family look important and look rich'. 

[HarrySeaman]

Funerals are also extremely expensive.  When my mother in law passed away it was a multiple day affair at the local temple.  Family and friends fixed meals at the temple for those days and non-alcoholic drinks were supplied.  There were ceremonies at least three times a day.  The final day many friends and lots of family showed up for the last ceremonies, and at the cremation memorial gifts were given to one and all.  The next day was the only sensible one in my opinion - the ashes were collected, blessed, then disposed of in a local river.

 

After my mother in law's funeral, being an atheist, I made it clear as possible to my wife that I I don't want her wasting money on ceremonies.  I want the fastest, simplest, and cheapest cremation available, and she could simply dispose of the remains as she sees fit.  Of course I won't be able to argue with her once I die so what will really happen will remain a mystery to me.

[Pink Mist]

A troll post has been removed.

[KannikaP]

29 minutes ago, HarrySeaman said:

After my mother in law's funeral, being an atheist, I made it clear as possible to my wife that I I don't want her wasting money on ceremonies.  I want the fastest, simplest, and cheapest cremation available, and she could simply dispose of the remains as she sees fit.  Of course I won't be able to argue with her once I die so what will really happen will remain a mystery to me.

I totally agree, and have put it as a special clause in my Thai Will...NO BIG PARTIES, and only people I had known to be invited. That should whittle it down to about 10! I have also specified an amount of Bht 15000 for said ceremony.. 

Edited April 7, 2023 by KannikaP
I am not such a tight 4rse, I meant 15 thousand.

[brianthainess]

7 minutes ago, KannikaP said:

I have also specified an amount of Bht 1500 for said ceremony.. 

Minimum will take 3 days all up, One day/night at the Wat/temple, One day for cremation, Next day scatter the ashes. 1.5k is ridicules. does that include the coffin, fuel for the 'oven', basic food for mourners, coffin bearers, Monks. Although not part of the ceremony, your body and all docs. will be needed to be sent back from the police autopsy in BKK to your desired Temple/Wat. I feel sorry for those you leave behind. 

[hidbehindthesofa]

I once attended one of these ceremonies at a temple.   Dozens of tables laid up with food.  Stage and PA set up for the group and the DJ.   Two trucks arrived laden with cases of whisky - which was then openly decanted Into Coke bottles !  Around 50 tables were set ot for guests and hundreds of chairs all set out with linen covers.  Long trail of people doing circuits of the temple - some squabbling about carrying the biggest gifts and pots (even though they brought nothing with them)  and others joining the parade whilst swigging whisky from the Coke bottles.

 

I rather naively assumed that the young man having his head shaved was being prepared to dedicate the rest of his life to serve as a monk.  However,  on speaking with my Thai lady,  I was quickly divested of that notion and informed that the young man in question would merely be spending three weeks at the temple  !

 

All this nonsense would have cost the parents hundreds of thousands of baht - and it was all done for show.  How sad !

 

The next time I was invited to a similar event I refused to go as I did not want to participate in such a sham.

[KannikaP]

8 minutes ago, brianthainess said:

Minimum will take 3 days all up, One day/night at the Wat/temple, One day for cremation, Next day scatter the ashes. 1.5k is ridicules. does that include the coffin, fuel for the 'oven', basic food for mourners, coffin bearers, Monks. Although not part of the ceremony, your body and all docs. will be needed to be sent back from the police autopsy in BKK to your desired Temple/Wat. I feel sorry for those you leave behind. 

See my edit. Meant 15000 !

The less they spend on dispensing with me, the more they will have to live on.

Or is it live OFF?

Edited April 7, 2023 by KannikaP

[LukKrueng]

On 4/6/2023 at 1:08 PM, Danderman123 said:

The lady claims the big event is necessary

Being a ceremony, it is the choice of those who arrange it. It's not a law. The fact that you cannot understand the culture and the importance of the event to this woman doesn't make any difference. In many such events (and that includes big weddings in the West) the parents it those who throw the party expect or hope that money given by gifts will cover the costs plus give some profit. Many of those get it totally wrong....

[proton]

All part of Thai life, this was a decent film on a bodlian ceremony and party, this would have cost a lot, pity he was paranoid about not covering the music, the usual fear of copy write strikes

 

 

[Myran]

Not needed in the slightest. It's all about showing off and appearing more well-off than you really are.

[BTB1977]

No this is not mandatory.  It is totally up to the mother to go through this expensive ceremony.  My wife has 2 sons and doesn't plan to do it. As most said here it is mostly for show. Or save face with the neighbors ???? 

[Tropposurfer]

Before I cark-it I'm going to make sure everyone within a 50 km radius beleives I intend to have a huge new temple complex built then have it built as part of my massive funeral arrangements ... then, a' la' Trump style, I will stiff the lot of em' and leave the huge bill for someone else to pay hahahahaha ????

Edited April 7, 2023 by Tropposurfer

[spidermike007]

4 hours ago, scorecard said:

Here's a twist. My Thai DIL has a loud full on, mid aged, always interfering lady boy big brother.

 

Lady boy is totally convinced that all farang are rich beyond belief with no limits. He's asked my son many times for big cash handouts, for a condo and a BM with uniformed chauffeur. Son just says no and changes the subject.

 

A nearby neighbor died and this prompted lady boy to ask my son for 500,000Baht so he coud be ready to organize my funeral, the party, chines style 10 course outdoors dinner, etc. Son refused and told him 'when dad passes away I will take care of all arrangements and I forbid you from getting involved in any way. If you do spend any money I will not reimburse you.

 

Lady boy reacted with shock and told the world about his converstaion with my son and how hwas was insulted at being spoken to so directly.

 

His claim was 'But xxxx we must have a big party to impress everybody, make the family look important and look rich'. 

Some people are simply born to be ignored. He sounds like a real pain. Glad your son spoke directly to him. He sounds like a true clown. 

[scorecard]

38 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

Some people are simply born to be ignored. He sounds like a real pain. Glad your son spoke directly to him. He sounds like a true clown. 

I could write a book about his actvities/interference/rudeness.

 

My son bought a new not cheap (not the most expensve) house and land in a new development in Chiang Mai, came with floors, ceilinsg, wallpaper and changes of layout/extenion of the size of the house, wall layout as requested by my son and his wife.  Son and wife then found a tadesman to build/install a lot of more modern furniture. All done nicely, OK price, everybody happy.

 

A month later son and sife and kids came home to discover ladyboy and his CM wealthy bf (eldest son of a CM interior decorator empire) were in the house. (Turns out ladyboy had pocketed a house key at an earlier date.) 

 

Ladyboy and bf were measuring walls, putting markerpen spots/lines on the wallpaperand had puller one cabinet away from it's position screwed to a wall. Plus ladyboy had found a set of plans of the whole house which had been put away by my son.

 

Son asks 'what are you doing?  Ladyboy 'Your furniture is not beautiful in the whole house and we are redesigning it, to be instaled in about 1 month, it will be a lot more beautiful.

 

Son and wife consiscate the drawings and the notes they had taken and tell ladyboy to remove the marks on the wallpper immediately without damaging the wallpaper.

 

Ladyboy; 'But it will only cost about 3million Baht'. Son explodes and says 'where will I get 3 million Baht? (Which was not the main point anyway.)  Ladyboy 'Ask your father'. (me).

 

Son bundles both of them out of them out of the house and recovers the housekey. Son's wife get brave (ladyboy is her elder brother) and she tells him 'never come back'. 

 

Plus many more events.

 

[puchooay]

48 minutes ago, scorecard said:

 I could write a book about his actvities/interference/rudeness

And file it in the Fiction section.

[Andycoops]

You have to understand culture here in Isaan or anywhere for that matter, show some respect and humility and let them get on with it, don't forget you are a guest here. 

Unless you have become a Thai citizen.

If you want to contribute or not is entirely your choice, as it is their choice to stage ceremonies that are extravagant or the lowest of low key.

[2baht]

The cost of face! Very expensive ! ????

[kimamey]

On 4/7/2023 at 1:54 PM, hidbehindthesofa said:

I once attended one of these ceremonies at a temple.   Dozens of tables laid up with food.  Stage and PA set up for the group and the DJ.   Two trucks arrived laden with cases of whisky - which was then openly decanted Into Coke bottles !  Around 50 tables were set ot for guests and hundreds of chairs all set out with linen covers.  Long trail of people doing circuits of the temple - some squabbling about carrying the biggest gifts and pots (even though they brought nothing with them)  and others joining the parade whilst swigging whisky from the Coke bottles.

 

I rather naively assumed that the young man having his head shaved was being prepared to dedicate the rest of his life to serve as a monk.  However,  on speaking with my Thai lady,  I was quickly divested of that notion and informed that the young man in question would merely be spending three weeks at the temple  !

 

All this nonsense would have cost the parents hundreds of thousands of baht - and it was all done for show.  How sad !

 

The next time I was invited to a similar event I refused to go as I did not want to participate in such a sham.

Of course there's the tradition, presumably centuries old of tedious music played at a volume that makes your internal organs vibrate. If you're passing in a car the door panels rattle.

Our wedding, 10 years ago this week was a surprise to me. We bought a gold chain for my mil and then went to do the paperwork in the office in town. A bit like a quick register office wedding in the UK with witnesses grabbed off the street but with all of the romance and gravitas removed. One of our neighbours was at the next counter getting a new blue book. 

We had a party the next year when my sister and bil were over.  The karaoke was a bit bigger than she'd imagined. 

[thailand49]

Here is my experience and views.  I'm in no way religious so my view of religion in Thailand considered the most religious in the world or Asia in an article I saw years back is pretty much all negative. But regardless of my views I'm not going to rain on anyone parade.

 

The ops posted his views but there is more not reported and that is how close is he to this so call friend their relationship particularly with the son. Since none is available I'm going to take a wild guess because I think it makes a huge difference whether you should help or not.

 

First, how old is the son?  if in the 20's and it hasn't been done there is a reason usually money but all of a sudden " friend " is in the picture the mother wants it done if not why wasn't it done earlier?

 

I've in over 15 years here in Pattaya not seen one of these events normally if done they go back to the mother or father home and have it done.  Here in my Thai village in Pattaya many of the kids my son grew up with parents don't have the funds to have one. I would say in the Thai culture it is very important but not essential a do or die situation if it doesn't happen I've not heard any stories of shame or complete lost of face.  In my own situation my son cousins parents teamed up and share in the event to cut cost.

 

In 2021, as my son was completing his education and got lucky not required to serve military the wife broke the news as to the event that it was going to happen later in the year in Sept into October, I of course knew of the event in the conversation she never mentioned money to pay I asked her out of curiosity and she just said don't worry she had save and has the money.

 

Not exactly surprised or disappointed although I've been the only father he has ever known 6 month old, when he turn 7, I adopted him through the Thai government process officially. Through the years I always got the sense from Thais as to what I've done and what I've been through raising him are shocked and surprise that someone who isn't blood can love another person child this at time kind of puts me on a pedestal? So the fact that even my wife has save for this event not directly asking me to share didn't surprise me.

 

As noted I knew of the event seen it upfront the last few days but I didn't have a clue the amount of preparation months before we even left for the farm. As many posted it is right up there with a Thai marriage wife has a huge family the women knew in detail what to do and what to buy they did all the cooking and cleaning the amount of food and beverages several trips to Makro. The men also had their jobs the rental of tents, water tanks, tables, chairs, dishes the list goes on and on along with the responsibility of preparing him and the family interviews and his 14 day stay with the Monks.

 

I remember the last few days as it got closer monks in and out, the final day of shaving his head and paying his respect to me and his mother they even had clothes picked out for me to wear. Then the march down to the temple included music and throwing of wrap coins. Once there he meets the monks to chant and pay his respect. After he stays at the temple where he works fixing and caring for the animals, his man job was to take care of this huge black pig, guess once the head monk saw his big fat ass lazy wife knew exactly what training he needed?  Sorry had to throw that in!

 

To me this is somewhat like the event the Jewish does for the male? During the 14 days each morning he wake up at 4 am and the monks break up in groups walk bare feet throughout and gather donation.  Each morning the wife got up and cook food we gather at the Temple entrance to wake for him and his group to donate the food. The last day it was custom also for the family to feed the monks a meal of their choosing after finding out I was a farang although Asian American they requested if it was possible to have a meal from Pizza Hut which none has ever had. There was also a small donation to the Temple.

 

So?  back to the beginning when I was told by the wife she had saved!  I told her just give me a round figure although I didn't believe he was my son raising him has been tough but a joy and paying for something he and the family believe in was just part of the course. The near two months  at their rice farm not rich people pull together helping through all the steps I being able to bond for the first time with many of the elders. One of her older brother an government official in the village rarely ever came or acknowledge me since the beginning disapprove of his sister marrying a foreigner but during this event came regularly to sit and eat with me.

 

In the end, drum rolls.................................. 140,000 baht.... that included all the white envelops of appreciation to each family member who helped out when it was over within hours tents, tanks, dishes all cleaned and returned to the company. The wife counted up all the white envelop donations I expected nothing from her family since they are poor rich on paper with land and always been respectful to me never asking for anything especially her mother but the total came to 45,000 baht she handed it to me I said politely keep it I'm sure something will arise before we leave. The look on her face hinted we would make passionate love that night LOL.  most of it went to the mother who has never ask anything of me except to take care of the two of them.

 

As for the ops, I have no clue what your situation regardless of the negatives showing off, etc etc.. but if she mentioned it there might be more to the relationship that you are indicating. If it truly is a friendship and she is just crying on your shoulder and you aren't invited to attend then all you got to do is stuff a 1000 baht or more in one of those white envelops and call it a day. If it is something more you met the son and family then I would be more generous and if you are coming across as exclusive not saying you should pay for the whole thing but as far as I'm concern you can't dip your stick to check the oil and think things are free!????

 

 

 

 

Edited April 9, 2023 by thailand49

[elwood]

In 25 years, I have attended 11 funerals of family members in Ubon, and one  in Bangkok.

Only once was I asked to help financially, by a close nephew who paid me back when his father's insurance was paid out.

From memory, most occasions lasted 3-4 days, mainly to allow time for relatives and friends to travel from other parts of the country.

[Bluetongue]

Yes its not mandatory. I've been to dozens of these things. The cynics are saying it's all about face. I don't agree. Yes wealthy people make a big show but its the same ceremony, where the boy has become a man. Often poorer cousins or family friends will piggyback so that costs are lower. I've seen some quite poignant moments, where the mother has broken down, the child washes the parents feet, I reckon it's pretty cool, can't understand why anybody living here would not enjoy one of these every now and then. I've seen them stay as monks for a year, a few months or a few days. Sometimes grown men will do it because they never got the chance when they were younger.

 

I had my farang friend come to this last one, he has been coming here for 35 years,lived here for about 10, he'd never seen this and was really impressed. Yes the music is too loud but it gets turned off early enough.

[scorecard]

On 4/7/2023 at 5:59 PM, BTB1977 said:

No this is not mandatory.  It is totally up to the mother to go through this expensive ceremony.  My wife has 2 sons and doesn't plan to do it. As most said here it is mostly for show. Or save face with the neighbors ???? 

Or, as explained by our loud family lady boy...to make the family look important and look rich.