Sleep problems

[Mickeymaus]

Melatonin doesn't work for me either. 5 large Leo beer will do the trick. The strange thing is that I don't get drunk. I can still do anything that requires you to be focused with no problems. I just get very tired. The next day I wake up feeling like I haven't had any alcohol at all. But I am very health conscious ☺️????????. So I don't do that too often. Sometimes when my special window construction and perhaps the best earplugs one can buy no longer help against the extreme bar noise here at my location in Central Pattaya ????????????.

[Lacessit]

2 hours ago, Sheryl said:

??

 

I don't think you meant to say "can't become addicted" ???

 

Anyone can and will become addicted to morphine if they take it regularly.

 

 

You may be right. However, if it does nothing for me in terms of pain relief, there would be no point to taking it regularly.

[Thailand]

5 hours ago, Thailand said:

1/2 litre of pasteurized milk at bedtime does it for me.

Maybe one overnight pee break but often 10-11 hours sleep each night.

Wondered if it was just me but after a search-

 

"Milk (and other dairy products) are a really good source of tryptophan. It's an amino acid that can help promote sleep, so it can come in particularly handy especially if you're used to tossing and turning before finally getting off to sleep."

[spidermike007]

4 MG. of Rivotril is alot. You might want to try CBD oil. High potency. I hear it works great, and it is now easy to find here. 

[mstevens]

There are various reasons why you might be waking up at that particular time. Taking herbals or medication is one approach but ideally, you want to find out the root cause. Some people go on a regime or supplements or medication which resolves their sleep problems but the issue remains and they cannot come off the medicine. Ideally, you want to identify what us causing you to wake up at that time.
 
Could you be diabetic? The "dawn phenomenon" causes diabetics with uncontrolled blood sugar to wake up early.
 
The time you’re consistently waking up at might be a clue. According to Chinese medicine, 1:00 – 3:00 AM is the time the liver does a lot of its work. If your liver is overburdened (could be a liver issue or could be something else such as infection or toxins which make the liver work much harder), this can cause you to wake up between 1:00 and 3:00 AM.
 
Another possibility is “histamine overload”. It’s kind of complicated but if you have gut issues, your body cannot break down histamines effectively. Your “histamine bucket” gets full and overflows causing histamines to be released in the middle of the night and wake you up. Less likely, but it is consistent with waking up early.
 
I had this very same issue with waking up between 2:00 and 3:00 AM night after night. After many visits to see multiple doctors, they could not work out what was going on. To cut a very long story short, it turned out I had an issue with oxalate toxicity which was causing histamine issues, which were causing me to wake up early. Adjusting my diet and taking a histamine-friendly probiotic resolved it.

[mstevens]

17 hours ago, ozimoron said:

Exercise before bed, don't eat for two hours before bedtime and practise intermittent fasting.

Intermittent fasting and not eating for a few hours before bed is great advice. For me, personally, I have found exercising before bed actually keeps me away although I am sure for others like yourself, it works well. My understanding is that research shows exercise in the morning is actually best for most people to help with sleep.

[mstevens]

15 hours ago, Thailand said:

1/2 litre of pasteurized milk at bedtime does it for me.

Maybe one overnight pee break but often 10-11 hours sleep each night.

This is probably due to the tryptophan in the milk. It's an amino acid that helps you to sleep. For a while I took an L Tryptophan supplement (Now Foods L-Tryptophan, Double Strength 1000 mg Tablets) which was somewhat effective.

[gwapofarang]

To the OP and anybody interested in hearing my experiences.  I have had serious sleeping issues my entire life. 

 

I'm 52, my mind or tiny pee brain (if I may call it that) evidently has a problem shutting down. Lived here in LOS since I was 18 and I used to heavily self medicate myself on the following medications.

 

10 mg Diazapam (Valuim) or the 5 mgs as they had an additional agent (used to anyway) benzodiazepine

1 mg Larazapam (Xanax) benzodiazepine

2 mg Clamazapam (Very weak benzo)

15 mg Dormicum (Dangerous but effective)

15 mg Rhohypnol (Very strong 10x stronger than Valuim)

2 mg Ativan (benzodiazepine) benzodiazepine

 

(In hindsight I'm lucky to be alive as I was an alcoholic on three separate occasions, haven't had a drop in over 5 years. NEVER TAKE THESE MEDS IF YOU ARE A HEAVY DRINKER, I did I was very lucky not to croke)

 

One quick note on the alcohol, this makes things worse on every level. You do not get proper sleep and it will kill you fast, seen a lot people pass over the years from this.

 

The reason for the above list is simple, these are all highly addictive if taken every day. I would literally have a vitamin case for each day of the week. Not being able to sleep wrecks havoc on ones health and mind, this cannot be understated. I have seen some excellent expensive doctors and no I am not depressed never have been. This was the reason I had to "dose" myself as I had an active lifestyle with high visibility.

 

I'm sure I have met quite of few of you LOS long timers as a matter of fact (anybody remember the old Washington Square or Sukhumvit Soi 22 behind the theatre days)

 

Nobody knew of my condition as I learned to deal with it using medication. This was not and never was the answer, these pills are poison and if you become addicted to any of them, the "come down" is psychologically dangerous. Out of body type experiences, full on hallucinations and physical pains all over your body.  Keep in mind I was on them for about 30 years.

 

Yes I have tried melotonin and other herbal type remedies, they sort of work and yes are non addictive. Believe it or not, a glass of warm milk works much better and has been a home remedy for sleep problems for over 100 years.

 

Dealing without sleep medications was a pretty heavy learning curve after about 30 years of self medication. To this day, I am lucky if I get 5 hours, normally 4 or so and I still constantly wake up. I'll crash heavy every month or so for about 10 hours. For me that's like an eternity.

 

I have kept my mind busy over the years reading and working on the computer, very little mind control, I mean television. The best advise I can give anyone is really quite simple and sensible. This used to be considered quite common knowledge.

 

Exercise (Take long walks in the morning, start off with short ones and work your way up, baby steps if necessary). This is #1. Try to work up to hitting the gym or like many do, have sex a lot. For some a gym, is not an option, no problem buy your own and start a regiment.

Drink a lot of water, ten 12 ounce bottles a day.

Don't eat late at night say past 8 pm I recommend 7 pm
Try to feed yourself wholesome homemade food and eat a good breakfast.

Take a nice long hot bath before going to bed for those extreme nights

Reevaluate yourself and try to be a better person. The mind is most powerful. Use it.

Know your own inner feelings better and understand why they are there, read the statement above.

If you believe in God, he's always there don't be shy or you will die.

 

It's most helpful to have somebody who cares, loves and understand. I cannot state this enough. If you have nobody in particular, make sure you are prepared for the mental anguish because you are in for some trying times. There are self helping and motivational videos if you need some uplifting words and or direction.

 

To state thing plain and simple, find a real person for your heart, mind and soul.

 

Sorry for the long response and i hope this helps anybody in some small way.  I hope my intentions are transparent enough.

 

Peace out

 

 

Edited April 7, 2023 by gwapofarang

[Irrumator]

16 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

Get a going to sleep time routine, if i get up in the night fine, go for a piss, don't put lights on, back to bed and sleep, 2 or 3 times no problem, 6-7 hours sleep seems to be my sweetspot 

I think I've managed to have developed a bedtime routine after 74 years thanks.

 

The problem is that some unknown factor has recently upset that routine, all probably age-related.

 

Now I need to find the missing link, which is why I'm here.

[Irrumator]

2 hours ago, mstevens said:

Intermittent fasting and not eating for a few hours before bed is great advice. For me, personally, I have found exercising before bed actually keeps me away although I am sure for others like yourself, it works well. My understanding is that research shows exercise in the morning is actually best for most people to help with sleep.

I never eat after 5.30 pm.  Haven't for 6 years.  Part of my winding down routine

Edited April 7, 2023 by Irrumator

[Irrumator]

2 hours ago, mstevens said:

There are various reasons why you might be waking up at that particular time. Taking herbals or medication is one approach but ideally, you want to find out the root cause. Some people go on a regime or supplements or medication which resolves their sleep problems but the issue remains and they cannot come off the medicine. Ideally, you want to identify what us causing you to wake up at that time.
 
Could you be diabetic? The "dawn phenomenon" causes diabetics with uncontrolled blood sugar to wake up early.
 
The time you’re consistently waking up at might be a clue. According to Chinese medicine, 1:00 – 3:00 AM is the time the liver does a lot of its work. If your liver is overburdened (could be a liver issue or could be something else such as infection or toxins which make the liver work much harder), this can cause you to wake up between 1:00 and 3:00 AM.
 
Another possibility is “histamine overload”. It’s kind of complicated but if you have gut issues, your body cannot break down histamines effectively. Your “histamine bucket” gets full and overflows causing histamines to be released in the middle of the night and wake you up. Less likely, but it is consistent with waking up early.
 
I had this very same issue with waking up between 2:00 and 3:00 AM night after night. After many visits to see multiple doctors, they could not work out what was going on. To cut a very long story short, it turned out I had an issue with oxalate toxicity which was causing histamine issues, which were causing me to wake up early. Adjusting my diet and taking a histamine-friendly probiotic resolved it.

I prefer the answers in this sleep study - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5689397/

You'll see that sleep is divided into 5 phases, and the critical time for waking is after stages 1 and II, when you enter REM sleep.  That's when many people, and it seems me too, wake up - after about 180-220 minutes of sleep.

 

Excerpt from the study - 

'In the elderly, reduced homeostatic sleep pressure decreases the amount of slow‐wave sleep.¹⁶ Additionally, reduced circadian signals in the elderly result in reduced core body temperature and a phase advance of wake and sleep times.

Sleep is divided into non‐rapid eye movement (NREM) and REM sleep. NREM sleep is further divided into light sleep (stages N1 and N2) and slow‐wave sleep (stage N3).⁶ REM sleep occurs periodically in cycles of approximately 90‐120 minutes of sleep. In polysomnographic studies, four consistent changes related to aging are observed: decreased total sleep time, sleep efficiency, and slow‐wave sleep; and increased waking after sleep onset.¹⁷ A meta‐analysis of 3577 subjects aged 5‐102 years demonstrated age‐related changes in sleep architecture (Figure 1).¹⁷ In adults, total sleep time, sleep efficiency, percentage of slow‐wave sleep, percentage of REM sleep, and REM latency all decreased with age. Sleep latency increased with age, but this change was very subtle. Only sleep efficiency continued to decrease after 60 years of age.'

 

This is shown in the figure below, and I seem to wake after stage 1 and stage II just as the study suggests.  I seem to usually wake after about 3 to 3.5 hours of study.
Read the figure upwards from the bottom.
 

Edited April 7, 2023 by Irrumator

[Irrumator]

1 hour ago, gwapofarang said:

 like many do, have sex a lot.

 

 

Strangely enough, last night we did just that after a long break due to a cracked radius in my right wrist and voila, I woke up at 5.45 am this morning, the latest I have woken in months!  I did wake a few times due to nature calling but went straight off back to sleep.

Now I need to persuade my wife that's the cure ...  ????

Edited April 7, 2023 by Irrumator

[Irrumator]

3 hours ago, mstevens said:

Could you be diabetic? The "dawn phenomenon" causes diabetics with uncontrolled blood sugar to wake up early.

 

Absolutely not.  I have regular blood tests and my blood sugar (2 weeks ago it was 78 with a lower limit of 75 and a higher limit of 150.  I'm anything but diabetic. 
My cardiologist is delighted.  I NEVER knowingly eat anything with sugar in.  I've been following keto eating for 6 years and lost 110  pounds (55 kgs to me) and kept it off.
 
The time you’re consistently waking up at might be a clue. According to Chinese medicine, 1:00 – 3:00 AM is the time the liver does a lot of its work. If your liver is overburdened (could be a liver issue or could be something else such as infection or toxins which make the liver work much harder), this can cause you to wake up between 1:00 and 3:00 AM.
I can't comment on that as  don't follow Chinese medicine.
 
Another possibility is “histamine overload”. It’s kind of complicated but if you have gut issues, your body cannot break down histamines effectively. Your “histamine bucket” gets full and overflows causing histamines to be released in the middle of the night and wake you up. Less likely, but it is consistent with waking up early.

Worth considering but I won't be breaking my neck to research it.  Sounds a ut snake-doctorish to me.  
 
I had this very same issue with waking up between 2:00 and 3:00 AM night after night. After many visits to see multiple doctors, they could not work out what was going on. To cut a very long story short, it turned out I had an issue with oxalate toxicity which was causing histamine issues, which were causing me to wake up early. Adjusting my diet and taking a histamine-friendly probiotic resolved it.

What is a 'histamine-friendly pro-biotic?  Do you have a name?

 

Edited April 8, 2023 by Irrumator

[Irrumator]

12 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

4 MG. of Rivotril is alot. You might want to try CBD oil. High potency. I hear it works great, and it is now easy to find here. 

I know it's 'a <space> lot', (no such word as 'alot') nor is it especially effective at keeping me asleep.  It  lasts about 3 hours or  so, which fits in with the study graph I posted above when older people wake after the same length of time.

Edited April 8, 2023 by Irrumator

[Irrumator]

20 hours ago, ozimoron said:

Exercise before bed, don't eat for two hours before bedtime and practise intermittent fasting.

I never eat  after 5.30 pm and  do Keto with all the trimmings

[Irrumator]

18 hours ago, Thailand said:

1/2 litre of pasteurized milk at bedtime does it for me.

Maybe one overnight pee break but often 10-11 hours sleep each night.

The problem with that is that intensely dislike the taste of milk as a drink.

Even in my morning pint mugs of strong unsugared tea (which wakens me great) I limit the amount of milk in the tea to 10 mls (measured).  That's about enough milky taste that I can tolerate.

Edited April 8, 2023 by Irrumator

[robblok]

Canabis works for me, but its not a long term solution. Just like with Benzos and alcohol you build up tolerance.

 

I tried benzos (work for a few days), Cannabis (works almost always) Melatonin (works sometimes), Exercise (i always exercise so it does not help or anything). I had sleeping problems for a really long time. Not the falling asleep but staying asleep. For some reason it corrected itself and now i can sleep without anything. 

 

Of all the drugs cannabis helped the most and with the least side effects. Melatonin had me wake up like a zombie / same for benzo's. Alcohol just did not work. Cannabis worked great but that too might lead to dependency.

Its really hard to find the root problem. I had years of problems and all of a sudden it was gone and i could sleep normal again. (dont even know what changed)

[robblok]

9 minutes ago, Irrumator said:

I never eat  after 5.30 pm and  do Keto with all the trimmings

That might be the problem when i did keto i my sleeping problems got worse. 

[Irrumator]

10 minutes ago, robblok said:

Canabis works for me, but its not a long term solution. Just like with Benzos and alcohol you build up tolerance.

 

I tried benzos (work for a few days), Cannabis (works almost always) Melatonin (works sometimes), Exercise (i always exercise so it does not help or anything). I had sleeping problems for a really long time. Not the falling asleep but staying asleep. For some reason it corrected itself and now i can sleep without anything. 

 

Of all the drugs cannabis helped the most and with the least side effects. Melatonin had me wake up like a zombie / same for benzo's. Alcohol just did not work. Cannabis worked great but that too might lead to dependency.

Its really hard to find the root problem. I had years of problems and all of a sudden it was gone and i could sleep normal again. (dont even know what changed)

I've never taken a non prescription drug in my life, such as cannabis and don't intend to start now at my age.  
Having said that, my wife's next younger sister is a biochemist and last year made me a tincture of CBD oil and other stuff (no idea what) to rub into my arthriticky knees.  I can't say it did very much at all, but I didn't tell her so as not to hurt her feelings.

 

However, I could ask the wife if her sister could make something up I could take and see what happens.  Maybe some drops under the tongue at night?  Or some capsule?  I have no idea, but I'd be prepared to try for a few weeks.

 

 

[Irrumator]

17 minutes ago, robblok said:

That might be the problem when i did keto i my sleeping problems got worse. 

Well, I've been doing it 6 years and this problem has only cropped up in the last few weeks, so I doubt it.  

[robblok]

3 minutes ago, Irrumator said:

I've never taken a non prescription drug in my life, such as cannabis and don't intend to start now at my age.  
Having said that, my wife's next younger sister is a biochemist and last year made me a tincture of CBD oil and other stuff (no idea what) to rub into my arthriticky knees.  I can't say it did very much at all, but I didn't tell her so as not to hurt her feelings.

 

However, I could ask the wife if her sister could make something up I could take and see what happens.  Maybe some drops under the tongue at night?  Or some capsule?  I have no idea, but I'd be prepared to try for a few weeks.

 

 

Eh clonozapan is many countries perscription and is worse then canabis. The tinctures did not work for me either. But in the end its your body dont do things you dont want to try. 

[robblok]

1 minute ago, Irrumator said:

Well, I've been doing it 6 years and this problem has only cropped up in the last few weeks, so I doubt it.  

Just telling you my personal experience about keto. The problem is that there are so many variables. I had years of sleeping problems and i never found the reason. I tried it all and for me cannabis worked best. But now i dont need that either. I still don't know what caused it im just happy it went away. 

 

The problem with sleeping problems is identifying the cause. All you can do is try as many things as you can. However that is also hard as you need to try something then stop and try something else. Otherwise you don't even know what the problem is.

I hope you can get it sorted out. 

[mstevens]

48 minutes ago, Irrumator said:

 

In answer to your question about a histamine-friendly probiotic, I take Seeking Health ProbiotaX. This will only help if you have a histamine-related issue or gut issues.

[save the frogs]

If you take melatonin tablets regularly, maybe your body will have difficulty creating its own melatonin after a while.

Not sure, though.

I think Tryptophan is better than melatonin.

Milk is high in Tryptophan, as someone mentioned.

 

Magnesium helps with sleep.

Take supplements or find foods that contain magnesium. 

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/magnesium-and-sleep

 

Go out for walks in the sun as the sun during the day. 

 

 

[Irrumator]

8 minutes ago, robblok said:

Just telling you my personal experience about keto. The problem is that there are so many variables. I had years of sleeping problems and i never found the reason. I tried it all and for me cannabis worked best. But now i dont need that either. I still don't know what caused it im just happy it went away. 

 

The problem with sleeping problems is identifying the cause. All you can do is try as many things as you can. However that is also hard as you need to try something then stop and try something else. Otherwise you don't even know what the problem is.

I hope you can get it sorted out. 

Thanks.  I have tried hydroxyzine, alprazolam (Xanax) and clonazepam (Rivotril) over the years but none have been really effective.  I don't like taking 4 mgs Rivotril but the doc has titrated the dose up from 1 mg over some months, but it only really works for a few hours.

I used to have 3 Leos up until 6 years ago but stopped the when I started keto eating.

I changed to whisky Thai style as spirits have no carbs and so I started having 45 mls whisky (I have a pharmacist's measuring glass) in a 250 ml glass, topped up with ice to the tp and then add soda water to the brim.  Unfortunately I think I developed a tolerance to that and I ended u needing 3 glasses like that and I felt that was too much.

 

I stopped mainly because of the price increases (I'd been drinking 100 Pipers and that went up so I changed to Bells and now that's gone up so it's the dreaded Hong Thong now, but I don't drink it in bed as my wife complains so I have a few swigs beforehand.  It helps but it's not very  pleasant.
 

I should probably stop altogether, but it's comforting to know that if I wake about 3am, I can go for a few swigs which usually gets me off again for the rest of the night.  Yes yes, I know I shouldn't mix alcohol and sleeping tablets but I have never had any adverse effects, ever. 

 

To be honest, I think I have started to develop a tolerance to alcohol over the years and I don't want to get into having to drink more and more because that's a very slippery slope.

 

 

[Irrumator]

7 minutes ago, save the frogs said:

If you take melatonin tablets regularly, maybe your body will have difficulty creating its own melatonin after a while.

Not sure, though.

I think Tryptophan is better than melatonin.

Milk is high in Tryptophan, as someone mentioned.

 

Magnesium helps with sleep.

Take supplements or find foods that contain magnesium. 

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/magnesium-and-sleep

 

Go out for walks in the sun as the sun during the day. 

 

 

I'll look into both of those.  Thanks.  

[robblok]

17 minutes ago, Irrumator said:

Thanks.  I have tried hydroxyzine, alprazolam (Xanax) and clonazepam (Rivotril) over the years but none have been really effective.  I don't like taking 4 mgs Rivotril but the doc has titrated the dose up from 1 mg over some months, but it only really works for a few hours.

I used to have 3 Leos up until 6 years ago but stopped the when I started keto eating.

I changed to whisky Thai style as spirits have no carbs and so I started having 45 mls whisky (I have a pharmacist's measuring glass) in a 250 ml glass, topped up with ice to the tp and then add soda water to the brim.  Unfortunately I think I developed a tolerance to that and I ended u needing 3 glasses like that and I felt that was too much.

 

I stopped mainly because of the price increases (I'd been drinking 100 Pipers and that went up so I changed to Bells and now that's gone up so it's the dreaded Hong Thong now, but I don't drink it in bed as my wife complains so I have a few swigs beforehand.  It helps but it's not very  pleasant.
 

I should probably stop altogether, but it's comforting to know that if I wake about 3am, I can go for a few swigs which usually gets me off again for the rest of the night.  Yes yes, I know I shouldn't mix alcohol and sleeping tablets but I have never had any adverse effects, ever. 

 

To be honest, I think I have started to develop a tolerance to alcohol over the years and I don't want to get into having to drink more and more because that's a very slippery slope.

 

 

All drugs, alcohol is a drug too will build up tolerance. So Xanax and cannabis and alcohol all will build up tolerance. It sucks its hard to combat. Only way to combat is to have off periods. Xanax is prescription in Thailand cannabis is not. Though its easy to get Xanax without prescription in certain pharmacies.

 

The problem with sleeping is really annoying. So hard to find what the cause is as there can be so many. I had for years like 5+ or so. Still don't know what changed. 

[Jingthing]

I tried this and it's incredibly strong and effective!

Shocking actually. 

However falling asleep is different than staying asleep for 7 or 8 hours.

In any case I suggest people try this.

Not to do all the time because as mentioned you want to avoid building resistances.

 

 

 

30 minutes  before bedtime. 

Magnesium threonate
300 to 400 mg

 

Apigenin like chamomille
50 mg.

 

Theanine
100 to 400 mg.

Edited April 8, 2023 by Jingthing

[jvs]

31 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I tried this and it's incredibly strong and effective!

Shocking actually. 

However falling asleep is different than staying asleep for 7 or 8 hours.

In any case I suggest people try this.

Not to do all the time because as mentioned you want to avoid building resistances.

 

 

 

30 minutes  before bedtime. 

Magnesium threonate
300 to 400 mg

 

Apigenin like chamomille
50 mg.

 

Theanine
100 to 400 mg.

Have you used this?

Is this available here ?

 

[Jingthing]

26 minutes ago, jvs said:

Have you used this?

Is this available here ?

 

 

26 minutes ago, jvs said:

Have you used this?

Is this available here ?

 

Yes as I said.

Got it all on Lazada.

Not cheap though.

It's the most powerful knock you out option I've tried but I haven't tried medications. I can't imagine wanting anything stronger than this. If you take you better really be ready for bed soon.