Gall Bladder Stone

[KannikaP]

Took myself to the local Govt Hospital on Monday night with bad pain in right upper chest. A few blood tests and x-rays later it was diagnosed as a stone in my gall bladder, confirmed the following morning by ultrasound. Intravenus drip of nutrition as I was Nil by Mouth, antibiotics, omeprazole, and some morphine to ease the pain.

I was feeling OK yesterday morning until I was told that surgery, either open or keyhole was needed in 2 - 4 weeks, so Googled any Natural Methods of sorting this out. A few sites, incl NHS, suggested apple juice for two days followed by olive oil & lemon would get rid in a few days.

Anyone tried this, or is it bull.

Total bill for 2 nights etc. wa Bht 8500.

Edited June 1, 2023 by metisdead
ALL CAPS removed from topic title.

[save the frogs]

32 minutes ago, KannikaP said:

A few sites, incl NHS, suggested apple juice for two days followed by olive oil & lemon would get rid in a few days.

yeah, i had a russian girlfriend ages ago who was into all this holistic stuff.

she would do this particular thing ... and green pellets would come out in her poop the following morning the night after taking the olive oil. 

i'm serious. 

does that prove it works? no. not exactly sure what those green pellets were. 

but don't think it can cause any harm. it's basically a sort of fast/cleanse. 

the only thing that comes to mind is if you fast for 2 days, you may want to buy electrolyte powder and add it to your water or apple juice. 

 

Edited June 1, 2023 by save the frogs

[Sheryl]

A gallstone above a certain size or one that is causing severe symptoms needs surgery. You fit into at least one of these catrgories.

 

There are medications that can be tried and sometimes work in dissolving stones but it takes a very long time (up to 2 years)  so not appropriate with very large stones or stones that are symptomatic. Failing to promptly treat those is quite dangerous. Can lead to pancreatitis and/or sepsis. Which can be fatal.

 

Small asymptomatic stones are another matter but that is not your situation.

 

There is nothing on earth that can get rid of a gallstone in just a few days. And no NHS site that says this.

 

What you describe is a so-called  "gallbladder cleanse" or "liver flush" for which no evidence exists and which is definitely not endorsed by NHS or any other public health agency. Actually what happens is that this "cleanse" is usually taken by healthy people in pricey "detox" programs. It results in loose stools containing fat globules which they are then told were  gallstones. Complete smoke and mirrors.

 

A government hospital would not recommend surgery if it were not necessary. Private hospitals sometimes do (e.g. for small asymptomatic stones) but not government hospitals.

 

An endoscopic ("keyhole") surgery is easier on the patient, smaller incision and quicker recovery.  But more technically difficult to perform, needs special training and equipment so costs more. At a government hospital maybe 20k additional. 

 

 

[nauseus]

11 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

A gallstone above a certain size or one that is causing severe symptoms needs surgery. You fit into at least one of these catrgories.

 

There are medications that can be tried and sometimes work in dissolving stones but it takes a very long time (up to 2 years)  so not appropriate with very large stones or stones that are symptomatic. Failing to promptly treat those is quite dangerous. Can lead to pancreatitis and/or sepsis. Which can be fatal.

 

Small asymptomatic stones are another matter but that is not your situation.

 

There is nothing on earth that can get rid of a gallstone in just a few days. And no NHS that says this.

 

What you describe is a so-called  "gallbladder cleanse" or "liver flush" for which no evidence exists and definitely not endorsed by NHS or any other public health agency. Actually what happens is that this "cleanse" is usually taken by healthy people in pricey "detox" programs. It results in loose stools containing fat globules which they are then told were  gallstones. Complete smoke and mirrors.

 

A governtment hosputal woud not recommend surgery if it were not necessary. Private hospitals sometimes do (e.g. for small asymptomatic stones) but not government hospitals.

 

An endoscopic ("keyhole") surgery is easier on the patient, smaller incision and quicker recovery.  But more technically difficult to perform, needs special training and equipment so costs more. At a government hospital maybe 20k additional. 

 

 

Thanks Sheryl,

 

If you have so much pain as to warrant morphine, then it is likely that the stone(s) are large.

 

Get a second opinion and then your surgery asap. You will be safer and feel much better.

 

 

[KannikaP]

55 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

A gallstone above a certain size or one that is causing severe symptoms needs surgery. You fit into at least one of these catrgories.

 

There are medications that can be tried and sometimes work in dissolving stones but it takes a very long time (up to 2 years)  so not appropriate with very large stones or stones that are symptomatic. Failing to promptly treat those is quite dangerous. Can lead to pancreatitis and/or sepsis. Which can be fatal.

 

Small asymptomatic stones are another matter but that is not your situation.

 

There is nothing on earth that can get rid of a gallstone in just a few days. And no NHS site that says this.

 

What you describe is a so-called  "gallbladder cleanse" or "liver flush" for which no evidence exists and which is definitely not endorsed by NHS or any other public health agency. Actually what happens is that this "cleanse" is usually taken by healthy people in pricey "detox" programs. It results in loose stools containing fat globules which they are then told were  gallstones. Complete smoke and mirrors.

 

A government hospital would not recommend surgery if it were not necessary. Private hospitals sometimes do (e.g. for small asymptomatic stones) but not government hospitals.

 

An endoscopic ("keyhole") surgery is easier on the patient, smaller incision and quicker recovery.  But more technically difficult to perform, needs special training and equipment so costs more. At a government hospital maybe 20k additional. 

 

 

Thanks Sheryl for your usual good advice. Do you mean removal of the gall bladder completely? Is it no use to me anyway?

They've got me booked in at Nauresan, Phitsanulok on 19th June for a follow up, and then surgery. Is it an OP job?

[mstevens]

The Andrew Moritz Liver & Gallbladder flush is popular and there are Facebook groups with TENS OF THOUSANDS of members who have used this method to successfully flush out gallstones. There are various methods and there are huge numbers of people who have had success with this to clear gallstones completely. Join the group and find out more for yourself. I think you'll find members extremely well-informed as well as very supportive. Thousands have been in the exact situation you are in now - diagnosed with a gallstone and unsure how to proceed.

 

There are other natural remedies to break down gallstones. The most popular supplement is Chanca Piedra which is known as the "stone-breaker." It is most effective in liquid form but the capsules are good too. A popular brand is World Botanicals which is carried by iHerb.

 

Cholecystectomy (the surgical removal of the gallbladder) is not the only treatment available to you. Western medicine advocates this procedure but many people who have had their gallbladder surgically removed suffer from issues with digestion for the rest of their life, particularly the emulsifying and digestion of fats which also can cause issues with the absorption of fat-soluble vitamins. Just two days ago I had coffee with a friend who flew from Phnom Penh to Bangkok to have gallbladder surgery a decade ago. His digestion has never been the same since. If you do choose to get your gallbladder removed, look in to ox bile supplements to help with fat digestion.

 

Gallstones are a medical emergency if they are blocking the ducts leading to the pancreas and in that situation, surgery is required. If that is not the case, I'd strongly suggest looking at other less invasive and less-permanent options first.

 

 

 

 

[Sheryl]

3 hours ago, KannikaP said:

Thanks Sheryl for your usual good advice. Do you mean removal of the gall bladder completely? Is it no use to me anyway?

They've got me booked in at Nauresan, Phitsanulok on 19th June for a follow up, and then surgery. Is it an OP job?

Yes the surgery for this is complete removal of the gall bladder. 

 

You can live fine without a gall bladder except might find ingestion of very fatty foods doesn't sit well afterwards. Shouldn't eat those anyhow. 

 

Bile is made by the liver and stored in the gall bladder , and bile is necessary to digestion of fats.  You will still have bile coming ftom your liver but no longer a reserve sac of it. So you will still be able to digest fats but may not be able to handle a  large intake of them all at once.

 

Not outpatient. The surgery is usually done under general anesthesia. If laporoscopic you may be able to go home the very next day. If open approach may need 2-3 nights depending on how much incisional pain as in Thailand they usually don't like to discharge people with narcotic pain killers. 

[Sheryl]

A post with link to an unreliable and commercial site has been removed. 

[BritManToo]

4 hours ago, KannikaP said:

I was feeling OK yesterday morning until I was told that surgery, either open or keyhole was needed in 2 - 4 weeks, so Googled any Natural Methods of sorting this out. A few sites, incl NHS, suggested apple juice for two days followed by olive oil & lemon would get rid in a few days.

Anyone tried this, or is it bull.

Had the same diagnosis 12 years back (3 nights in hospital on a drip).

Reduced my weight from 90+Kg to 76Kg and the problem disappeared without any surgery.

While I was losing weight I kept a course of antibiotics to hand in case the symptoms reappeared.

Edited June 1, 2023 by BritManToo

[Jai Dee]

I had my gall bladder removed by keyhole surgery about 8 years ago.

I was working in Indonesia at the time and the stomach pain was sudden and extreme.

I was driven to the local hospital by our company EHS rep who stayed with me whilst X-rays and then ultrasound was performed to verify that I had 3 small stones stuck together in my gall bladder.

Surgery was needed to correct it but my company refused to allow any surgery to be performed in an Indonesian hospital so I was air-lifted to Singapore for the operation.

4 small cuts about 30mm long... 2 for the lights, 1 for the camera, and 1 for the action.

2 nights in hospital then I was OK to leave and resume work again. 

 

I still remember the pain before the operation... it was intense!

 

Having no gall bladder now means that my body does not produce bile anymore, so fatty foods (pork belly, chicken skin, bacon etc) cannot be processed as well, and result in being passed through my system fairly quickly.

Other than that I have no problems with digestion.

 

My advice to the OP... don't try to put up with the pain and try a "natural remedy"... you will only make things worse for your pancreas.

 

Get the operation done as soon as possible.

[Sheryl]

8 minutes ago, Jai Dee said:

 

Having no gall bladder now means that my body does not produce bile anymore, so fatty foods (pork belly, chicken skin, bacon etc) cannot be processed as well, and result in being passed through my system fairly quickly.

Other than that I have no problems with digestion.

 

Your body still produces bile just as it did before. 

 

What has changed is that you no longer have a reserve stash of it on hand to quickly cope with  a large amount of fat at once. 

 

 

[DrJoy]

21 minutes ago, Jai Dee said:

still remember the pain before the operation... it was intense!

 

and after surgery pain?

[Jai Dee]

Just now, DrJoy said:

and after surgery pain?

Obviously some discomfort due to 4 cuts in the abdomen, but I was able to play 9 holes of golf again without any major discomfort after a 4 week rest.

It took another 4 weeks before I was game enough to tackle 18 holes... 

[brianburi]

OP, please keep us informed on how the operation goes and price .

I had a scan full admonen some 18 months ago and they found 3 gall stones about 1cm in diameter.

The advice I was given as long as they don't move, ie into your bile duct,  let them be.

I use to be quite nauseous in the mornings and I took water with lemon pieces in, or a glass of water with some apple cider vinegar. Seemed to work, well alongside losing some 20kg in weight!.

Interesting you use  P-lok government hospital, I use Bangkok Phits the private one.

The resident cardiologist and heart centre is very good.

I have always had Thai health insurance here and the car valet procedure at the hospital entrance always gets me 555....

[Sheryl]

With the advent of ultrasounds (and especially in Thailand where private hospitals include them as part of check up packages -- something no public health authority recommends) small asymptomatic gall stones are often found.

 

Most authorities agree that these can be managing expectantly (wait & see if they cause a problem) or with conservative measures (e.g oral medications.) 

 

These abdominal ultrasounds also turn up a of of harmless cysts on liver and kidney. 

 

 

[BritManToo]

1 hour ago, brianburi said:

I use to be quite nauseous in the mornings and I took water with lemon pieces in, or a glass of water with some apple cider vinegar. Seemed to work, well alongside losing some 20kg in weight!.

Nauseous in the mornings is not a symptom of gallstones.

The main symptoms are

1. Extreme pain if a gallstone blocks the bile duct causing an infection (the gallstone clears itself, the infection needs antibiotics).

2. What appears to be acid reflux in the evenings/bedtime.

 

The infections are easy to identify and treat if caught early and treated immediately.

Repeated untreated infections are what causes the gallbladder to need to be removed.

Edited June 1, 2023 by BritManToo

[Sheryl]

2 hours ago, BritManToo said:

Nauseous in the mornings is not a symptom of gallstones.

The main symptoms are

1. Extreme pain if a gallstone blocks the bile duct causing an infection (the gallstone clears itself, the infection needs antibiotics).

2. What appears to be acid reflux in the evenings/bedtime.

 

The infections are easy to identify and treat if caught early and treated immediately.

Repeated untreated infections are what causes the gallbladder to need to be removed.

Infection (cholecyctitis) can occur without bile duct blockage.

 

Bile duct blockage is a critical emergency and can  lead to pancreatitis, sepsis, even death. The stone does not always clear itself.

 

Decision to remove gall bladder takes into account symptoms and also stone size and number. It is recommended after a bout (singular) of acute cholecystitis unless the patient has unusual risk factors for surgery.  Not least because repeat episodes of cholecystitis are a risk factor for cancer of the gall bladder.

[Andrew Dwyer]

I had the keyhole surgery around 15 years ago ( not in Thailand ), detected using ultrasound.

Prior to the ultrasound I had the usual tests, blood/urine/stool sample, and due to some traces of blood in my stool sample had a colonoscopy, my memories of the colonoscopy are worse than the keyhole surgery !

Looking now I can only see one faint scar around 10mm long.

Side effects seem to be diarrhoea if eating too much fatty foods but I have not had any issue with this.

I kept the stone , 20 mm in diameter and resembling a boiled sweet, for many years but moving here 7 years ago it went to landfill along with many other personal items.

Around the same time a couple of friends had the same op , we all agreed how fast the recovery time was and how relatively painless it all was, of course we were younger then !

[bunnydrops]

I had one attack in my 40s. I lived rural and drove myself to the hospital. Half way there the pain got so bad that I stopped the car and round out into the ditch. By the time I did get to the hospital the pain was completely gone so I didn't go in. Second time in my late 50s. The pain wasn't so bad, I just laid in bed for a couple of days. Then 70s, it was bad, pain so bad I wanted to die for about 6 hrs, then gone, but about 24 hrs later the same. Even before the pain started I could sense it coming. The third day, the same. Off to the hospital.  1 1/2 hr drive (I didn't drive). By the time I got there the pain was almost gone but they gave me some pain killers that really worked. Saw a Doc afterwards and had the thing pulled. About 7 years now, no noticeable effects.

[frantick]

Had keyhole surgery 4 years ago for gallbladder removal after a week long bout of pain that wouldn't go away. I had a couple of minor gallbladder attacks in years previous, but never was diagnosed. Waking up, I was so relieved to not have that gallbladder pain, I didn't even feel the 3 punctures in my gut. 

But, unfortunately, as can occur with all surgeries (1 to 5%?), I developed an incisional hernia slightly above the bellybutton location. Now, 4 years later, still contemplating whether to have it repaired, and possibly recur, or just let my belly poke out for the rest of my life. Nothing is ever 100%, I suppose that's why they call it medical "practice". 

But, yeah, I'd do it again because the pain was so severe. Lucky we only have one gallbladder. 

[cmjl]

My mother developed jaundice with pain in her back,it was suggested she had gall stones,as she didn't fancy an operation she tried the olive oil and lemon juice remedy,it made her throw up and gave her diarrhoea for a couple of hours,in the morning the jaundice had gone but the pain was still there(she was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer). I was diagnosed with a kidney stone at xmas about 20 years ago,my symptoms were an agonising pain at the left hand side of my lower back and bloody urine,my Dr prescribed Pethidine tablets with the instructions that I come back the following Tuesday if I hadn't passed it,as I couldn't stand the pain I decided to try the remedy,I used equal amounts of olive oil and orange juice and took a couple of hours to drink it a glass full at a time,I had sickness and diarrhoea for a couple of hours then went to bed,slept for the first time for 3 days,woke up in the morning with no pain and haven't had any problems since,the remedy may have no scientific basis but if I had problems again I'd try it first before resorting to surgery.

[Sheryl]

7 hours ago, cmjl said:

 I was diagnosed with a kidney stone at xmas about 20 years ago,my symptoms were an agonising pain at the left hand side of my lower back and bloody urine,my Dr prescribed Pethidine tablets with the instructions that I come back the following Tuesday if I hadn't passed it,as I couldn't stand the pain I decided to try the remedy,I used equal amounts of olive oil and orange juice and took a couple of hours to drink it a glass full at a time,I had sickness and diarrhoea for a couple of hours then went to bed,slept for the first time for 3 days,woke up in the morning with no pain and haven't had any problems since,the remedy may have no scientific basis but if I had problems again I'd try it first before resorting to surgery.

If I follow your story correctly you had a kidney stone, not gallstones.

 

Your pain stopped because you had passed the stone.

 

No way that olive oil + orange juice would help with a kidney stone except  if it meant taking in more fluid. (more fluid aids in passing the stone).

 

 

 

 

[Pouatchee]

On 6/1/2023 at 8:13 AM, KannikaP said:

Anyone tried this, or is it bull.

bull... only way to fix this is to remove the gallbladder. tried apple vinegar and all the concoctions out there. if you dont get gallbladder removed it will only become more and more painful when you get the attacks (stone goes wrong way)

[Richard 2020]

I had my gallbladder (with a large stone) removed in Korat at Saint Mary's Hospital after almost unbearable pain.

Minimally invasive, no pain almost no scar after only 3 months to see!

Stay in the hospital 3 days, in a 2 room luxury room with girlfriend!

Costs, with operation of my umbilical hernia, ca.280.000.-THB

 

In the BPH in Pattaya it would have cost me 3 times as much, so drive to Korat ;-)

 

[Celsius]

On 6/1/2023 at 10:08 AM, mstevens said:

The Andrew Moritz Liver & Gallbladder flush is popular and there are Facebook groups with TENS OF THOUSANDS of members who have used this method to successfully flush out gallstones. There are various methods and there are huge numbers of people who have had success with this to clear gallstones completely. Join the group and find out more for yourself. I think you'll find members extremely well-informed as well as very supportive. Thousands have been in the exact situation you are in now - diagnosed with a gallstone and unsure how to proceed.

 

There are other natural remedies to break down gallstones. The most popular supplement is Chanca Piedra which is known as the "stone-breaker." It is most effective in liquid form but the capsules are good too. A popular brand is World Botanicals which is carried by iHerb.

 

Cholecystectomy (the surgical removal of the gallbladder) is not the only treatment available to you. Western medicine advocates this procedure but many people who have had their gallbladder surgically removed suffer from issues with digestion for the rest of their life, particularly the emulsifying and digestion of fats which also can cause issues with the absorption of fat-soluble vitamins. Just two days ago I had coffee with a friend who flew from Phnom Penh to Bangkok to have gallbladder surgery a decade ago. His digestion has never been the same since. If you do choose to get your gallbladder removed, look in to ox bile supplements to help with fat digestion.

 

Gallstones are a medical emergency if they are blocking the ducts leading to the pancreas and in that situation, surgery is required. If that is not the case, I'd strongly suggest looking at other less invasive and less-permanent options first.

 

 

 

 

Yeah right. Worked really well for Steve Jobs with his hollistic approach.

[KannikaP]

On 6/1/2023 at 3:35 PM, brianburi said:

OP, please keep us informed on how the operation goes and price .

I had a scan full admonen some 18 months ago and they found 3 gall stones about 1cm in diameter.

The advice I was given as long as they don't move, ie into your bile duct,  let them be.

I use to be quite nauseous in the mornings and I took water with lemon pieces in, or a glass of water with some apple cider vinegar. Seemed to work, well alongside losing some 20kg in weight!.

Interesting you use  P-lok government hospital, I use Bangkok Phits the private one.

The resident cardiologist and heart centre is very good.

I have always had Thai health insurance here and the car valet procedure at the hospital entrance always gets me 555....

Went yesterday as I was in moderate pain. More X-Rays & blood test, and mini-ultrasound. The doctor said that the stone had not shrunk (in 4 days? ) and I said correct because you gave me nothing to treat it. I was given anti-bs and paracetomol which had no effect.

Asked for Tramadol this time, Bht 30 for 30 tavlets, but a two hour wait at the hospital's pharmacy.

The cost for laparoscic surgery  will be Bht 60000 and 3 or 4 days in hospital @ Bht 600 per night. On USA websites it is in in the morning and out that same evening.

Private hospital in P'lok.............BHT 130-190,000 plus room, nurses service etc.

Clinic in India, BHT 38000, plus flights and hotel.

Guess which one I am going for. Booking it today ready for next week. 

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, KannikaP said:

Went yesterday as I was in moderate pain. More X-Rays & blood test, and mini-ultrasound. The doctor said that the stone had not shrunk (in 4 days? ) and I said correct because you gave me nothing to treat it. I was given anti-bs and paracetomol which had no effect.

Asked for Tramadol this time, Bht 30 for 30 tavlets, but a two hour wait at the hospital's pharmacy.

The cost for laparoscic surgery  will be Bht 60000 and 3 or 4 days in hospital @ Bht 600 per night. On USA websites it is in in the morning and out that same evening.

Private hospital in P'lok.............BHT 130-190,000 plus room, nurses service etc.

Clinic in India, BHT 38000, plus flights and hotel.

Guess which one I am going for. Booking it today ready for next week. 

Good luck.

[Sheryl]

3 hours ago, KannikaP said:

Went yesterday as I was in moderate pain. More X-Rays & blood test, and mini-ultrasound. The doctor said that the stone had not shrunk (in 4 days? ) and I said correct because you gave me nothing to treat it. I was given anti-bs and paracetomol which had no effect.

Asked for Tramadol this time, Bht 30 for 30 tavlets, but a two hour wait at the hospital's pharmacy.

The cost for laparoscic surgery  will be Bht 60000 and 3 or 4 days in hospital @ Bht 600 per night. On USA websites it is in in the morning and out that same evening.

Private hospital in P'lok.............BHT 130-190,000 plus room, nurses service etc.

Clinic in India, BHT 38000, plus flights and hotel.

Guess which one I am going for. Booking it today ready for next week. 

Nothing can shrink a gall stone in a matter of days. Nor in a matter of weeks or few months.

 

It is common practice in Thailand to keep people overnight for procedures that in the West are  day procedures. In part because the room cost is so small relative to other costs.

 

The 3-4 days quote from government hospitak was just an estimate and they would discharge you as soon as ready (which as previously explained, in Thailand means no longer needing narcotic pain killer so does vary by the individual).   People I have known who had this done in government hospitals spent only 2 days/1 night (including day of admission and discharge). This would only reduce the price a little, though, as  most of that 60K is the surgery itself.  Hospitals often estimate high to avoid issues later. I suspect actual cost, if you went home next day, would be in the 40-49K range.

 

I very much hope you are not really going to have this done in a "clinic" in India but rather a proper hospital (of which there are many in India). If anything goes wrong and you are not in a hospital results could be catastrophic.

 

 

[scubascuba3]

4 hours ago, KannikaP said:

Went yesterday as I was in moderate pain. More X-Rays & blood test, and mini-ultrasound. The doctor said that the stone had not shrunk (in 4 days? ) and I said correct because you gave me nothing to treat it. I was given anti-bs and paracetomol which had no effect.

Asked for Tramadol this time, Bht 30 for 30 tavlets, but a two hour wait at the hospital's pharmacy.

The cost for laparoscic surgery  will be Bht 60000 and 3 or 4 days in hospital @ Bht 600 per night. On USA websites it is in in the morning and out that same evening.

Private hospital in P'lok.............BHT 130-190,000 plus room, nurses service etc.

Clinic in India, BHT 38000, plus flights and hotel.

Guess which one I am going for. Booking it today ready for next week. 

Give us an update on here or start a thread about the India trip, will be interesting and good luck

Edited June 7, 2023 by scubascuba3

[Confuscious]

I was hospitalized in urgency last year with high fever, losing conciousness, a.o. symptoms.
After about 2 hours of testing by different doctors, it was diagnosed that Galstones were blocking my Bladder.
I stayed at the hopsital 9 days.
During my stay at the hospital, I got an offer for Laparoscopy (4 days stay at the hospital)  for 25,000 THB.
My doctor gave his VETO on this surgery and it was not carried out.
The hospital was the Fort Suranaree in Korat.