Usufruct Chiang Mai ?

[freedomnow]

Have any of you heard of Usufruct property structuring being done in Chiang Mai ?

 

Is it even legally possible ? Does it involve all that fake nominee stuff..if yes, I'd pass.

 

 

[scorecard]

17 minutes ago, freedomnow said:

Have any of you heard of Usufruct property structuring being done in Chiang Mai ?

 

Is it even legally possible ? Does it involve all that fake nominee stuff..if yes, I'd pass.

 

 

An example: My Thai son owns 2 blocks of land (adjoining) in a modern gated village not far from CM city centre, with a large house across the 2 plots. 

 

Chanut is in my son's name. (Deliberately in his name only because his wife's older brothers and sisters make continuous comments that if my son dies the property must go, by law, to his wife and they will insist she transfers ownership to her elder siblings).

Son has a will bequeathing the property equally / jointly to all his children, wife deliberately not mentioned. Son's wife quite happy with this arrangement because she's frightened of her elder bro & sis and fears they would pressure her (and they would) to give the property to them.

Reality is that I gave my son the land and house as a wedding gift and my son and his wife promised they would provide a roof over my head and care for me until my death.

To protect me and the kids my son put a usufruct on the chanut. The usufruct:

- Is valid/cannot be changed whilst I am living unless I generate the change and sign to approve the change with several witnesses, including my now 18 yo granddaughter (who has been harrassed several times by her aunts and uncles; most recently tried to convince her to stop uni and give the uni tuition fees to them. She hates them).

- Property cannot be sold without my written/winessed approval regardless of whether my son is alive or deceased.

 

About 4 years go my son went with local trusted lawyer to local LTO to discuss the above with LTO manager who agreed all possible and legal. Son went ahead and added the usufruct.

 

Son's brother in law and sister in law know that something has been added to the chanut but my son totally refuses to let them see the chanut.

[brianthainess]

43 minutes ago, freedomnow said:

Is it even legally possible ? Does it involve all that fake nominee stuff..if yes, I'd pass.

To the best of my knowledge Non of that 'Nominee stuff' is needed. Some land offices are easier than others.

I found out 'Issan  Lawyers' (they seem to have a good reputation) will issue a legal letter for 4k so you can produce that at the Land Office. 

[scorecard]

2 hours ago, scorecard said:

An example: My Thai son owns 2 blocks of land (adjoining) in a modern gated village not far from CM city centre, with a large house across the 2 plots. 

 

Chanut is in my son's name. (Deliberately in his name only because his wife's older brothers and sisters make continuous comments that if my son dies the property must go, by law, to his wife and they will insist she transfers ownership to her elder siblings).

Son has a will bequeathing the property equally / jointly to all his children, wife deliberately not mentioned. Son's wife quite happy with this arrangement because she's frightened of her elder bro & sis and fears they would pressure her (and they would) to give the property to them.

Reality is that I gave my son the land and house as a wedding gift and my son and his wife promised they would provide a roof over my head and care for me until my death.

To protect me and the kids my son put a usufruct on the chanut. The usufruct:

- Is valid/cannot be changed whilst I am living unless I generate the change and sign to approve the change with several witnesses, including my now 18 yo granddaughter (who has been harrassed several times by her aunts and uncles; most recently tried to convince her to stop uni and give the uni tuition fees to them. She hates them).

- Property cannot be sold without my written/winessed approval regardless of whether my son is alive or deceased.

 

About 4 years go my son went with local trusted lawyer to local LTO to discuss the above with LTO manager who agreed all possible and legal. Son went ahead and added the usufruct.

 

Son's brother in law and sister in law know that something has been added to the chanut but my son totally refuses to let them see the chanut.

Further, just to clarify:

 

From my post above "...Deliberately in his name only because his wife's older brothers and sisters make continuous comments that if my son dies the property must go, by law, to his wife and they will insist she transfers ownership to her elder siblings).   "

 

Son's brother in law & sister in law both believe they know eveyrthing about Thai law and they insist that if  "...my son dies the property must go by law to his wife" 

 

Which is of course not true, especially since my son has already made a legal will which bequeaths his property equally / jointly to all of his kids and nobody else. 

Edited July 11, 2023 by scorecard

[dinga]

33 minutes ago, scorecard said:

Further, just to clarify:

 

From my post above "...Deliberately in his name only because his wife's older brothers and sisters make continuous comments that if my son dies the property must go, by law, to his wife and they will insist she transfers ownership to her elder siblings).   "

 

Son's brother in law & sister in law both believe they know eveyrthing about Thai law and they insist that if  "...my son dies the property must go by law to his wife" 

 

Which is of course not true, especially since my son has already made a legal will which bequeaths his property equally / jointly to all of his kids and nobody else. 

I'm not a lawyer but think the timing of the purchase/registration of the properties may be critical.  My understanding - which of course may be incorrect - is that any property obtained while the couple is married are jointly owned - perhaps meaning that your son's will only bequeath's his 50% to the nominated beneficiaries - with the remaining 50% remaining with the wife.  While legally the Usufruct may protect your right to stay there, there are anecdotes about how relatives have made it practically impossible to exercise that right. 

 

Could be tricky - reckon it's worth getting some legal advice. 

[KhunLA]

As stated, like all TH gov't offices, they don't seem to work off the same play book.  Heard of some Amphur Land offices not doing, or wanting 'paperwork+'.

 

My experiences with 9 lots of land, all having a usufruct in my name on them, is completely different, very easy, and inexpensive.

 

Simply ask to have it added, owner & you, whether at transfer (if new purchase), or as add-on after the sale.  Too simple and <100 baht I think.  No lawyer needed.  Takes all of 5-10mins, for clerk to add your name/info to the 'fill in the blanks' form on his/her/its computer, print out, and you sign.  It's stays with the chanote, till you null & void it out.

 

Get if for life, or 30 yrs or highest # yrs they'll allow.  Get to 'use & modify'.  Nobody can do anything to the land/property/structures, without your permission.

 

On our build at PKK, wife put papers in for add-on, wash & storage room, that wasn't on original blueprint submitted.   Wasn't approved till I signed off on it ????  it's a powerful document.

 

This done at A. Muang L.O. @ Udon Thani (7 lots) & A. Muang L.O. Prachuap Khiri Khan (2 lots).  When that is done, go to Amphur office, and get a yellow book.  You should never need a Cert of Residence in the future, hopefully.

Edited July 11, 2023 by KhunLA

[steven100]

Usufruct  is useless ......   whats the point of it  ?     if you have a fight an divorce would you want to live there with all the relatives and others knowing about the divorce ?  she'll want you gone.

A usufruct  is useless imo

[scorecard]

2 hours ago, dinga said:

I'm not a lawyer but think the timing of the purchase/registration of the properties may be critical.  My understanding - which of course may be incorrect - is that any property obtained while the couple is married are jointly owned - perhaps meaning that your son's will only bequeath's his 50% to the nominated beneficiaries - with the remaining 50% remaining with the wife.  While legally the Usufruct may protect your right to stay there, there are anecdotes about how relatives have made it practically impossible to exercise that right. 

 

Could be tricky - reckon it's worth getting some legal advice. 

In fact the name on the chanut was transferred from the development company name to my son's name several years before he got married.

Edited July 11, 2023 by scorecard

[scorecard]

5 hours ago, brianthainess said:

To the best of my knowledge Non of that 'Nominee stuff' is needed. Some land offices are easier than others.

I found out 'Issan  Lawyers' (they seem to have a good reputation) will issue a legal letter for 4k so you can produce that at the Land Office. 

In my son's case there is no 'nominee' involved and there is no 'lease' involved.

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, steven100 said:

Usufruct  is useless ......   whats the point of it  ?     if you have a fight an divorce would you want to live there with all the relatives and others knowing about the divorce ?  she'll want you gone.

A usufruct  is useless imo

If you live in your wife's family village, maybe.  1st house was there, and nobody bothered me after I threw her out.

 

2nd & 3rd house was / is nowhere near the wife's family, and she likes it that way.

 

Live with your choices.

Edited July 11, 2023 by KhunLA

[scorecard]

1 hour ago, scorecard said:

In my son's case there is no 'nominee' involved and there is no 'lease' involved.

 

[scorecard]

1 hour ago, KhunLA said:

If you live in your wife's family village, maybe.  1st house was there, and nobody bothered me after I threw her out.

 

2nd & 3rd house was / is nowhere near the wife's family, and she likes it that way.

 

Live with your choices.

If there's a usufruct on the property chanut with your name it's not compulsory for you to live in the property, not at all, where you live is up to u!

[scorecard]

Just now, scorecard said:

If there's a usufruct on the property chanut with your name it's not compulsory for you to live in the property, not at all, where you live is up to you!

And the usufruct incurs no annual etc., charges in anybody's name. 

 

[KhunLA]

29 minutes ago, scorecard said:

If there's a usufruct on the property chanut with your name it's not compulsory for you to live in the property, not at all, where you live is up to u!

I lived there by choice, as liked the house, since built for me, per my specifications.  New GF/future wife moved in, nobody cared, as most folks liked me.

 

Never an issue, even when I sold it, with a POA that I had.  Ex wasn't there or even needed at the sale.

[scorecard]

10 hours ago, KhunLA said:

I lived there by choice, as liked the house, since built for me, per my specifications.  New GF/future wife moved in, nobody cared, as most folks liked me.

 

Never an issue, even when I sold it, with a POA that I had.  Ex wasn't there or even needed at the sale.

So what's the point of your rant?

[KhunLA]

10 minutes ago, scorecard said:

So what's the point of your rant?

None, just replying to your ... no need to live in house comment.  If assuming a 'safety' issue was implied.

 

I can see where that could be a problem for some, in wife's village.

 

With extra paperwork (POA), some things can be avoided, if needed.  If usufruct doesn't provide the protect you need, in that scenario, then POA is your escape clause to a bad situation.  Without loss of investment, many couldn't afford to lose.

 

Just a little extra info, for those skeptical of buying in.  You can protect yourself against most situations.

 

Life's choices .... again.

[ThaiLawOnline]

I did it many times in Chiangmai without any probkme. I actually registered Usufruct in probably 50 land departments or more,

 

These are the problems we had in 15 years, mostly 10 years ago:

 

- few years ago in Udon Thani, amphur Mueang, do not ask me why they were refusing. Now it is fine.

- in one district of Ubon Ratchathani, they refused for an unmarried couple. That’s not in the law. The client wanted to register himself and he made a problem so impossible after.

- in one place in Surin, the director refused lifetime. We showed him the law, he said no, did not want to lose face, he only did it for 30 years.

- once around Chiangmai, they refused for more than 1 rai. Again, ni idea why. I did 12 rai in Chiangrai,

 

That ‘s the problem of Thailand : when they do not know, they can tell you any crazy answer.

When our lawyers went, we never been refused one time but 2006-2010 was more difficult than today.

 

[rimmae2]

In Chiang Mai OP may contact:

SUMALEE JENNAPA ADVOCATES & SOLICITORS

[spidermike007]

On 7/11/2023 at 3:51 PM, scorecard said:

An example: My Thai son owns 2 blocks of land (adjoining) in a modern gated village not far from CM city centre, with a large house across the 2 plots. 

 

Chanut is in my son's name. (Deliberately in his name only because his wife's older brothers and sisters make continuous comments that if my son dies the property must go, by law, to his wife and they will insist she transfers ownership to her elder siblings).

Son has a will bequeathing the property equally / jointly to all his children, wife deliberately not mentioned. Son's wife quite happy with this arrangement because she's frightened of her elder bro & sis and fears they would pressure her (and they would) to give the property to them.

Reality is that I gave my son the land and house as a wedding gift and my son and his wife promised they would provide a roof over my head and care for me until my death.

To protect me and the kids my son put a usufruct on the chanut. The usufruct:

- Is valid/cannot be changed whilst I am living unless I generate the change and sign to approve the change with several witnesses, including my now 18 yo granddaughter (who has been harrassed several times by her aunts and uncles; most recently tried to convince her to stop uni and give the uni tuition fees to them. She hates them).

- Property cannot be sold without my written/winessed approval regardless of whether my son is alive or deceased.

 

About 4 years go my son went with local trusted lawyer to local LTO to discuss the above with LTO manager who agreed all possible and legal. Son went ahead and added the usufruct.

 

Son's brother in law and sister in law know that something has been added to the chanut but my son totally refuses to let them see the chanut.

Your son sounds like a very man. Good on you. Always nice to see one who does not give into family pressure, especially when it is nonsensical and sleazy. 

[ThaiLawOnline]

 

On 7/11/2023 at 3:51 PM, scorecard said:

 

To protect me and the kids my son put a usufruct on the chanut. The usufruct:

- Is valid/cannot be changed whilst I am living unless I generate the change and sign to approve the change with several witnesses, including my now 18 yo granddaughter (who has been harrassed several times by her aunts and uncles; most recently tried to convince her to stop uni and give the uni tuition fees to them. She hates them).

- Property cannot be sold without my written/winessed approval regardless of whether my son is alive or deceased.

 

 

Not entirely true. The land department has a standard usufruct agreement. It normally never says that the owner (“naked-owner as it is called in civil law) can not sell the property. You might have a contract make by a law firm, like we do. The problem is sometimes, people do not respect contracts.

 

So technically because the land department normally does not keep your personal agreement with your son, your son can sell the property, even if it is against your agreement. But the new owner will have to follow the usufruct registered in title deed..

 

Once, I saw the girlfriend of someone counterfeit the signature of a client on a power of attorney and also on his copy of passport. She took the Chanotte, cancel the usufruct and borrow money on the title deed. Or course, this is illegal, an extreme case and does not happen often. But I saw it.

 

the usufructuary should keep the chanotte himself for more protection and we add a clause about it in our agreements. The land department never does it. Their agreement is about 5 clauses and very basic.

i saw also someone able to register a Kaifak (sale with right of redemption) over a usufruct, I was surprised that the land department let it do it, but it is not illegal unless a contract states otherwise. But like I said, the contract done at the amphur are weak.

 

When parties are not married, I suggest to add a .MOU between the parties which could have been done between your son and yourself. To make things clearer.