Zelensky hits out at "absurd" NATO

[Hummin]

8 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

If religion was an issue it would have been in 1952. It wasn't then and isn't now. If you think anyone even cares that Sweden defends a constitutional right (like America and Australia) of a single bigot to burn a Koran you'd be wrong. Most NATO countries are largely irreligious and don't care about another country or individual's religion. Only those few bigots and Turkey is sophisticated enough to realize it beyond making diplomatic protests for domestic consumption.

“We will eventually teach the arrogant Westerners that insulting Muslims is not freedom of thought,” Erdogan said in televised remarks.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/english.alarabiya.net/amp/News/middle-east/2023/06/29/Erdogan-slams-Sweden-Over-Quran-Burning-Impact-on-NATO-Membership

 

[herfiehandbag]

13 hours ago, pegman said:

You are going on the assumption that this is a territorial war and not a war of attrition. Russia has captured the industrial heartland of Ukraine. This is where the Russian speakers are. It was ethnically cleansed of Ukrainians and Tartars years ago. The Donbas and Crimea were then filled with Russians. It would be stupid for Putin to try to control Ukrainian speaking areas. People don't seem to understand that this war has been going on since 2014. It only escalated in February 2022. If anything I downplayed how bad the situation is for Ukraine. But once again the sheep will continue believing the west;s propaganda media and their military industrial complex former militaryi officers who have no shame. Déjà vu of WMD in Iraq all over again. It's supposed to be fool me once shame on you but fool me twice shame on me.

Personally I tend to ignore posters who describe anyone who subscribed to a point of view other than theirs as "sheep".

 

A reaction rather reinforced I must say when it is suggested that anyone advancing views he does not agree with is a " military industrial complex officer with no shame!"

 

Some of the punditry may be suspect and their conclusions exaggerated (on both sides of the argument) however I have served under at least two who have been relatively frequent contributors in the British media, and respect their judgements!

 

All wars are inherently attritional, and about territory. The aim is to control territory, if you do not seek to control territory you are not waging war, you are just being a bloody nuisance. You take control of territory by destroying an enemies will and ability to fight; an inevitable tool of that is attrition.

 

Baah, baah, where is my tinfoil hat, the military industrial complex raises its head again!

Edited July 16, 2023 by herfiehandbag

[peter zwart]

As he now find out he is just the "ball" in the big game.

[Hummin]

15 minutes ago, peter zwart said:

As he now find out he is just the "ball" in the big game.

Turkey have been the ball in the game many times during the history. Quite large player actually and strategic placed since Alexander The Great and during the Roman Empire, Istanbul was their Capital for a millennium. 

[ozimoron]

1 hour ago, Hummin said:

“We will eventually teach the arrogant Westerners that insulting Muslims is not freedom of thought,” Erdogan said in televised remarks.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/english.alarabiya.net/amp/News/middle-east/2023/06/29/Erdogan-slams-Sweden-Over-Quran-Burning-Impact-on-NATO-Membership

 

I told you, it's just for domestic consumption, playing to the religious base in his own country.

[Hummin]

33 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

I told you, it's just for domestic consumption, playing to the religious base in his own country.

Do you seriously believe Erdogans retoric only impact his domestic audience? Do you follow any news channels from middle east and other channels that is not just western oriented? How middle east, Africa, South America also Asian countries look at the west and the later history? His retoric hits exactly where it intended to reach. He wants a role in international politics, and he is succeeding! 

 

It is a game with bigger stakes than just his domestic voters! 

Edited July 16, 2023 by Hummin

[ozimoron]

56 minutes ago, Hummin said:

Do you seriously believe Erdogans retoric only impact his domestic audience? Do you follow any news channels from middle east and other channels that is not just western oriented? How middle east, Africa, South America also Asian countries look at the west and the later history? His retoric hits exactly where it intended to reach. He wants a role in international politics, and he is succeeding! 

 

It is a game with bigger stakes than just his domestic voters! 

Nobody outside of Turkey takes Erdogan seriously. Certainly not NATO countries.

[Hummin]

7 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

Nobody outside of Turkey takes Erdogan seriously. Certainly not NATO countries.

The world is more than Nato, and yes Nato members listening, and do make political horse deals with Erdogan!

 

 

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Hummin said:

The world is more than Nato, and yes Nato members listening, and do make political horse deals with Erdogan!

 

 

Ergogan did a rug pull on NATO on a couple of occasions and previously overtly supported Putin until it became clear he was backing a loser.

[Seppius]

19 hours ago, pegman said:

You are going on the assumption that this is a territorial war and not a war of attrition. Russia has captured the industrial heartland of Ukraine. This is where the Russian speakers are. It was ethnically cleansed of Ukrainians and Tartars years ago. The Donbas and Crimea were then filled with Russians. It would be stupid for Putin to try to control Ukrainian speaking areas. People don't seem to understand that this war has been going on since 2014. It only escalated in February 2022. If anything I downplayed how bad the situation is for Ukraine. But once again the sheep will continue believing the west;s propaganda media and their military industrial complex former militaryi officers who have no shame. Déjà vu of WMD in Iraq all over again. It's supposed to be fool me once shame on you but fool me twice shame on me.

UKRANIANS ARE ADVANCING ON ALL FRONTS, RUSSIAN DEFENSE IS CRUMBLING || 2023

 

 

[pegman]

6 hours ago, Seppius said:

UKRANIANS ARE ADVANCING ON ALL FRONTS, RUSSIAN DEFENSE IS CRUMBLING || 2023

 

 

 Yes things are looking very positive on American intelligence community YouTube propaganda channels. Here is a British Air Marshal predicting  the Russians will be done by Christmas. Last Christmas, 555! 

 

 

[pegman]

13 hours ago, herfiehandbag said:

Personally I tend to ignore posters who describe anyone who subscribed to a point of view other than theirs as "sheep".

 

A reaction rather reinforced I must say when it is suggested that anyone advancing views he does not agree with is a " military industrial complex officer with no shame!"

 

Some of the punditry may be suspect and their conclusions exaggerated (on both sides of the argument) however I have served under at least two who have been relatively frequent contributors in the British media, and respect their judgements!

 

All wars are inherently attritional, and about territory. The aim is to control territory, if you do not seek to control territory you are not waging war, you are just being a bloody nuisance. You take control of territory by destroying an enemies will and ability to fight; an inevitable tool of that is attrition.

 

Baah, baah, where is my tinfoil hat, the military industrial complex raises its head again!

 The Russians control 22% of Ukraine. Including its industrial heartland.  Explain to me why they would want to take Ukrainian speaking areas?

 

 Was one of those officers you worked for the former air marshal on Sky News last fall who stated that Ukraine had a advantage  going into winter because they were the ones  used to the harsh weather. After I heard that I checked the map and found Russia had not miraculously moved to the tropics.  

 

 Fact is things are not going good for Ukraine. They're running out of artillery shells. Russia meanwhile has been launching 60,000 a day. It's a war of attrition  and Russia unfortunately is much more equipped for this type of warfare.  This guy from Google apparently didn't get the  make believe all is good for Ukraine propaganda memo before this interview..

 

 

Edited July 16, 2023 by pegman

[Hummin]

Still no one is going to talk about the elephant in the room, where some Ukrainian still filling their pockets with money while they are in position in a war against Russia! This is one of key points to join Eu, or not! And also finely Nato!

 

Ukraine is fighting a two-front war: one against an external enemy, Russia, and the other against an internal one, corruption. It needs to win both wars

 

The challenge is daunting: Ukraine is among the most corrupt countries in Europe and toward the bottom globally. According to Transparency International, its 2022 Corruption Perception Index was still 33/100, ranking 116 out of 180 countries.

 

 

On top of that, billions of euros and dollars are pouring into the country to support its war efforts against Russia’s invasion. Despite the obvious moral justification for such support, international aid has a track record of breeding inefficiency and corruption in countries with fragile institutions.

 

https://www.gisreportsonline.com/r/ukraine-war-corruption-2/

 

Source 

Who we are

GIS was founded in 2011 by H.S.H. Prince Michael of Liechtenstein to provide business leaders, senior managers, and policymakers with genuine and relevant, scenario-based geopolitical economic and other relevant forecasts to inform their strategic decision-making. It is not a journalistic or media product but provides intelligence. 

 

Our reports and advisory services are based on the sustained background knowledge of our experts and not on quantitative research and open sources information. This allows GIS to provide scenarios of future developments and their consequences -intended or unintended – for our customers. The purpose is to provide a basis for decisions, supported by background information.

 

[heybruce]

2 hours ago, Hummin said:

Still no one is going to talk about the elephant in the room, where some Ukrainian still filling their pockets with money while they are in position in a war against Russia! This is one of key points to join Eu, or not! And also finely Nato!

 

Ukraine is fighting a two-front war: one against an external enemy, Russia, and the other against an internal one, corruption. It needs to win both wars

 

The challenge is daunting: Ukraine is among the most corrupt countries in Europe and toward the bottom globally. According to Transparency International, its 2022 Corruption Perception Index was still 33/100, ranking 116 out of 180 countries.

 

 

On top of that, billions of euros and dollars are pouring into the country to support its war efforts against Russia’s invasion. Despite the obvious moral justification for such support, international aid has a track record of breeding inefficiency and corruption in countries with fragile institutions.

 

https://www.gisreportsonline.com/r/ukraine-war-corruption-2/

 

Source 

Who we are

GIS was founded in 2011 by H.S.H. Prince Michael of Liechtenstein to provide business leaders, senior managers, and policymakers with genuine and relevant, scenario-based geopolitical economic and other relevant forecasts to inform their strategic decision-making. It is not a journalistic or media product but provides intelligence. 

 

Our reports and advisory services are based on the sustained background knowledge of our experts and not on quantitative research and open sources information. This allows GIS to provide scenarios of future developments and their consequences -intended or unintended – for our customers. The purpose is to provide a basis for decisions, supported by background information.

 

Your sources is based on the 2022 Transparency International Corruption Perception Index, which is base on data collected in 2021, pre-war.

 

The war has accelerated action against corruption:

 

"These new rules and institutions have not eliminated corruption, but they have made it a far riskier undertaking, rather than the accepted norm. In the three-and-a-half years that the anti-corruption court has been operating, 65 people have been convicted in it, including 20 judges and several mps and senior officials. Such prosecutions were unheard-of before 2014. “In the past few years corruption stopped being a system and became an ailment that could be dealt with,” says Vitaly Shabunin, an anti-corruption activist. "  https://www.economist.com/briefing/2023/06/22/war-is-reshaping-the-ukrainian-state-for-the-better

 

No nation is corruption free.  However successful nations drive corruption down to low levels and never relent on the fight against it.  Ukraine is heading in the right direction.

[Hummin]

3 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Your sources is based on the 2022 Transparency International Corruption Perception Index, which is base on data collected in 2021, pre-war.

 

The war has accelerated action against corruption:

 

"These new rules and institutions have not eliminated corruption, but they have made it a far riskier undertaking, rather than the accepted norm. In the three-and-a-half years that the anti-corruption court has been operating, 65 people have been convicted in it, including 20 judges and several mps and senior officials. Such prosecutions were unheard-of before 2014. “In the past few years corruption stopped being a system and became an ailment that could be dealt with,” says Vitaly Shabunin, an anti-corruption activist. "  https://www.economist.com/briefing/2023/06/22/war-is-reshaping-the-ukrainian-state-for-the-better

 

No nation is corruption free.  However successful nations drive corruption down to low levels and never relent on the fight against it.  Ukraine is heading in the right direction.

No doubt they are moving forward, and in the nature of the situation the country is, and the amount of support they recieving, it is in its nature they have to clean up, but still, there is a long way to be part of EU. 

 

The private armies still is essential for their success, as well the more famous Azuv brigade still is a factor in Ukraine, but now working under the goverment control during the war. 

[heybruce]

6 minutes ago, Hummin said:

No doubt they are moving forward, and in the nature of the situation the country is, and the amount of support they recieving, it is in its nature they have to clean up, but still, there is a long way to be part of EU. 

 

The private armies still is essential for their success, as well the more famous Azuv brigade still is a factor in Ukraine, but now working under the goverment control during the war. 

The first step in becoming a member of the EU is securing its borders against Russia and other miscreants.

[Hummin]

3 minutes ago, heybruce said:

The first step in becoming a member of the EU is securing its borders against Russia and other miscreants.

not important to eu, but Nato who do not enroll countries in ongoing conflicts. Eu is more worried about internal system and corruption. They will be member of Eu no matter of in war or any border conflicts. 

[Seppius]

9 hours ago, pegman said:

 The Russians control 22% of Ukraine. Including its industrial heartland.  Explain to me why they would want to take Ukrainian speaking areas?

 

 Was one of those officers you worked for the former air marshal on Sky News last fall who stated that Ukraine had a advantage  going into winter because they were the ones  used to the harsh weather. After I heard that I checked the map and found Russia had not miraculously moved to the tropics.  

 

 Fact is things are not going good for Ukraine. They're running out of artillery shells. Russia meanwhile has been launching 60,000 a day. It's a war of attrition  and Russia unfortunately is much more equipped for this type of warfare.  This guy from Google apparently didn't get the  make believe all is good for Ukraine propaganda memo before this interview..

 

 

Russia is losing those gains daily

[sirineou]

Just watched this. If anyone is really interested on how this ends watch this.

 

[KhunLA]

Why is the USA providing aid to Zelensky's UA, while under 'Martial Law' ?   Actually against USA foreign policy.  A new billions dollar aid package being approved.

 

As some will remember, USA halted foreign aid to TH, when 'martial law' was declared in 2014.   Only to lift martial law in 2015, and simply invoke Article 44 the next day, essentially restricting the same freedoms, that martial law did.  What a joke.

 

Simple 'name change' and foreign aid was allowed.

 

Zelensky declared martial law in Feb 2022, and if extended again, (extended May 20, 2023 for another 90 days) will avoid any new elections in October 2023.

 

This is the democracy the USA is backing.  Hypocrisy at it's best.

[Hummin]

9 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Why is the USA providing aid to Zelensky's UA, while under 'Martial Law' ?   Actually against USA foreign policy.  A new billions dollar aid package being approved.

 

As some will remember, USA halted foreign aid to TH, when 'martial law' was declared in 2014.   Only to lift martial law in 2015, and simply invoke Article 44 the next day, essentially restricting the same freedoms, that martial law did.  What a joke.

 

Simple 'name change' and foreign aid was allowed.

 

Zelensky declared martial law in Feb 2022, and if extended again, (extended May 20, 2023 for another 90 days) will avoid any new elections in October 2023.

 

This is the democracy the USA is backing.  Hypocrisy at it's best.

They are at war, and therefor, 

[KhunLA]

Just now, Hummin said:

They are at war, and therefor, 

Does that include suspending, banning opposition political parties, along with controlling the media:

https://www.npr.org/2022/07/08/1110577439/zelenskyy-has-consolidated-ukraines-tv-outlets-and-dissolved-rival-political-par

 

https://www.axios.com/2022/03/20/ukraine-ban-political-parties-russian-ties

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/20/ukraine-suspends-11-political-parties-with-links-to-russia

 

Bans largest opposition party:

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2022/06/23/hxae-j23.html

 

I wouldn't be surprised if this guy has an 'accident':

https://www.google.com/search?q=Federal+Intelligence+Service+of+Switzerland+accused+Zelensky+of+attempting+to+“politically+eliminate”+Kiev+mayor+Vitaly+Klitschko&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

[mikebike]

16 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Why is the USA providing aid to Zelensky's UA, while under 'Martial Law'

Do you actually know what "martial" means? If yes, can you see the difference between Thailand in 2014 and Ukrain in 2022/23? 

[mikebike]

3 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Does that include suspending, banning opposition political parties, along with controlling the media:

Maybe. Think WWII USA. Do you think the media WASN'T controlled ???????? And how many terms did FDR serve ????????????

[scottiejohn]

On 7/14/2023 at 10:02 AM, rabas said:

Easy one. It prevents Putin's war machine from advancing to the borders of other NATO members, many of which he has already said may be attacked.

Easy one. It prevents means Putin's war machine will be advancing to the borders of other NATO members, many of which he has already said may be attacked - with a ready made excuse for HIS home consumption!

[KhunLA]

51 minutes ago, mikebike said:

Maybe. Think WWII USA. Do you think the media WASN'T controlled ???????? And how many terms did FDR serve ????????????

Yet another mango & papaya comparison.

 

Elected, and didn't ban the opposition, or suspend elections.

 

22nd Amendment wasn't ratified till 1951

[Jingthing]

6 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

Yet another mango & papaya comparison.

 

Elected, and didn't ban the opposition, or suspend elections.

 

22nd Amendment wasn't ratified till 1951

I call B.S.!

The Nazis hadn't occupied Florida and much of the Eastern U.S.

 

[rabas]

2 hours ago, scottiejohn said:

Easy one. It prevents means Putin's war machine will be advancing to the borders of other NATO members, many of which he has already said may be attacked - with a ready made excuse for HIS home consumption!

So Putin will assault NATO, with little spare capacity after just trying to hold back Ukraine. Not to mention Western high tech weaponry is far superior as we all now see. BTW, the Chinese are in full denial that US systems easily shoot down Putin's unstoppable (cough) 'hyperbolic' missiles.  Of course he won't attack NATO, take a look at these numbers.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 27, 2023 by rabas

[heybruce]

8 hours ago, KhunLA said:

Why is the USA providing aid to Zelensky's UA, while under 'Martial Law' ?   Actually against USA foreign policy.  A new billions dollar aid package being approved.

 

As some will remember, USA halted foreign aid to TH, when 'martial law' was declared in 2014.   Only to lift martial law in 2015, and simply invoke Article 44 the next day, essentially restricting the same freedoms, that martial law did.  What a joke.

 

Simple 'name change' and foreign aid was allowed.

 

Zelensky declared martial law in Feb 2022, and if extended again, (extended May 20, 2023 for another 90 days) will avoid any new elections in October 2023.

 

This is the democracy the USA is backing.  Hypocrisy at it's best.

There is a difference between declaring martial law as part of a coup against an elected government and declaring martial law because your country is invaded.

 

Really, the obvious things that have to be explained to some people....

[scottiejohn]

9 hours ago, rabas said:

So Putin will assault NATO

I never said he would but then logic is not Putin's strong point!

 

 

 

 

Edited July 28, 2023 by scottiejohn