Thais are sinking deeply into debt

[cardinalblue]

But almost everyone has the newest model phone…

[Scouse123]

27 minutes ago, mfd101 said:

As anyone knows who bothers to visit an Isaan village any day of the week, the 1% official unemployment rate is entirely fictitious, being based on those few who bother to enroll on the government's list. Much of Isaan survives in the informal workforce, doing odd jobs around the place for minimal or sub-minimal wage or just a mid-day meal. (I know because I employ them & pay them a decent day's wage as well as a meal.)

Because that's how they like it, working in the informal ' gig economy ' no responsibilities, come and go as you please.

 

Always good to get one or maximum two weeks decent work out of them, after that and having received their wages, they become useless. Their only hope is when the bus comes to collect workers and take them to Bangkok, and then the problem is getting them to get on it.

 

They are not looking for a steady income, they are looking for ' right now's problems ' and when those problems are gone then so is the work ethic.

[MrMojoRisin]

8 hours ago, Lacessit said:

What I don't understand is how used car values can hold up very well under obvious oversupply. Every car yard I see in CM or CR is full of unsold vehicles.

What else were you expecting car yards to be full of?

[Lacessit]

3 minutes ago, MrMojoRisin said:

What else were you expecting car yards to be full of?

Yards which have turnover, not vehicles sitting there without moving for 6 months or more.

[MrMojoRisin]

18 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Yards which have turnover, not vehicles sitting there without moving for 6 months or more.

What you talking ‘bout?

 

[soalbundy]

21 minutes ago, StayinThailand2much said:

Yes, I've also seen families living in tin-shacks, while outside a brand-new Merc or BMW was parked... People clearly have different priorities in this country.

I beg to differ but can only speak for my own village in Isaan. The people are house proud, when I first came here 18 years ago most houses were wooden on stilts (built by their or their father's own hands, I doubt many Europeans would be able to do that); today most are brick built with all mod-cons and the best car in the village is my well kept 15 year old Honda Jazz, the others are old pick-ups used in farming activities or a motorbike. These people aren't brainless, the greatest tragedy that could befall them would be to lose their land through debt so they do plan ahead as to what they can afford. Much has been spoken of iphones, as well as communication devices they take the place of a falang's computer for entertainment which they can't afford, they use the wifi from the pu jai baan, the village shop, the village clinic, or the government office, my wife regularly watches films on her iphone and my son uses his to gather info for his homework which is why the school requires the students above a certain age to have one, He now has a laptop and we cant get him off it.

[Scouse123]

I will avoid stereotyping to the best of my ability and just talk about where I live, which is a typical Isaarn village. We have a compound and no immediate neighbors. Rubber trees to my left and sugar cane to my right. Opposite us is government land, where a few makeshift dwellings have appeared and small allotments.

 

There are very few around my village that actually work. I do know some young student boys who work at the local hotel part time ( but still eight or nine hours) for 100 baht per shift, If I did that as a foreigner to a Thai, I would be arrested for labour laws.

 

We have the old grandmas and grandpas as does every village, that sit around on flat wood benches eating, doing nothing and watching the world go by. A good few of them have ' good for nothing ' sons usually mid thirties and early forties that have hardly done a days work in their life. By and large, they have alcohol or drug problems.

 

They disappear from time to time, usually when the out of town police have visited and had a sweep and performed urine tests, we are then rid of them for a few months whilst they spend time in the prison.

 

On many occasions I have offered work to locals when they have asked for money, nothing difficult as that is beyond them, like cutting lawns or washing the car. They are NOT interested. They want to borrow only, which means give to them.

 

We do have some guys who pretend to be wealthy and I have seen them in the local hookers bar, of which we have one in our locality with girls from Laos working there

 

After their evening is over, they either disappear to a short time room or get into their heavily financed pickup or Fortuner and drive back and park this new car outside a ' filthy shack'  in the village. It's comical seeing brand new cars outside of shanty houses.  It's the face thing! the only thing the girls in the bar see is the car, not the living quarters.

 

I would sooner have a 3 wheel tuk tuk and a nice house but they just don't see it that way.

 

Even those on the outskirts of the village with big houses, (usually bigger cops, senior government or some of the larger store owners), have big houses with big walls and manicured lawns, but when you enter the houses, there is no furniture except for the odd stool and the obligatory 50" TV and a table to charge the all important cell phones.

 

Time and again, locals and my other half's alleged friends have come to our house seeking to borrow money. They are all jobless of course.

 

it is their pastime when they are not busy trying to sell somebody's friend of a friend's land so they can earn commission.

 

Other than that, they spend their time gossiping about other villagers, playing the illegal lottery, playing hi lo and drinking Lao Kao, whilst moaning about their sad existence.

 

However, this is how they choose to live. It irritates me so I find it easier not to communicate with them except for good morning, good evening and a big smile. It's as close as I want to be to most of them after all these years.

 

Nobody here wants to be ambitious and nobody wants to work. But everyone wants to borrow with no job or ability to repay.

[jaideedave]

6 hours ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

On top of that the debt is not equally distributed. Some, rich people,  are completely debt free while others owe 5-10 × their annual income. Teachers and many government employees are among the latter group. 

As soon as my sister in law got her gov't job they borrowed 1mil. Her salary? 15k Now they are slaves to the bank. I do believe that is typical here.

[Bangel72]

Tough to find clear guidelines for those with credit card debts they cannot pay.

 

Others mention the fact that banks seem to give people without jobs credit cards, so they get maxed quickly then forgotten about.  Bank sends warnings, court notifications, sells the debt to potentially their own subsidiary collection agencies, these steps are perhaps to avoid the limitations act.

 

Now I could not find much on actual court  decisions in these cases?  If you have high value items they are likely fair game but what about other household items, fridges, beds tv's. What about houses can they lose their house over a credit card bill? Can they take their partners belongings or is it named ownership items only like cars.

 

Some of the findings seem to indicate some of its fairly amicable, perhaps they can write it off and the banks get tax rebates but there's a lot of stress and worry for people for a civil court action and not a criminal one. The idea of more borrowing to pay credit cards is horrendous so hopefully it is actually a civil process that takes fairly into account means to pay that they did not consider in the first place.

 

Does anyone have experience of going to court or their partners in thailand over credit card debts that could provide some insight?

 

 

[FruitPudding]

1 hour ago, Furioso said:

I know you may not agree with me but it really pisses me off to see this..I've seen this in Panama as well, a poorer country than Thailand. They constantly market expensive items on TV, Radio,etc knowing 98% of the people can't afford it. I was with my girlfriend in Panama watching all these commercials and we'd look at each other and shake our heads. We'd drive by car lots with tons of repo's in the lot. Panama was the first country I lived in that had a very small % of people that had ANY money. They even had Lada dealers, people couldn't even afford those. 

 

The vulture capitalism is bad enough in the west..actually it's HORRIBLE and should be criminalized. But in my opinion, in Thailand it's a crime against humanity.  

Capitalism is the only vehicle to freedom.

 

Socialism is inherently evil.

[FruitPudding]

16 minutes ago, jaideedave said:

As soon as my sister in law got her gov't job they borrowed 1mil. Her salary? 15k Now they are slaves to the bank. I do believe that is typical here.

What did she invest it in?

[Rachel2023]

1 hour ago, soalbundy said:

Many have no other option than to borrow for things like school activities, school uniforms, fees, learning materials etc. (also iphones, required at my 16 year old's school)

This is very exactly why I hated school! A place where we are supposed to learn? No: a place where we are forced to spend unnecessary money! I mean, uniforms, iPhones, for which purpose??

 

And even if a uniform is not the norm, like in my home country, if you are not dressed according to the new trends, you are ridiculized by your schoolmates and even teachers!

[glegolo18]

10 hours ago, Cake Monster said:

And of that 90.6  % of GDP Loans, only roughly 20 % are secured

The rest are potentially very toxic Loans that are unsecured, and are for Cars , Motorcycles , white goods Etc

A truly scary situation, as the amount is staggering

AND on top of that all the damn black loans out in the villages for even worse percentage, with full collapse of families....

[Lacessit]

34 minutes ago, MrMojoRisin said:

What you talking ‘bout?

 

I'm talking about used cars, are those new car sales?

[Rachel2023]

30 minutes ago, Scouse123 said:

A good few of them have ' good for nothing ' sons usually mid thirties and early forties that have hardly done a days work in their life.

They don't need: they have their hard-working wives for this, all indoctrinated since young age at home and at school to be willing to work hard for their lazy husbands.

 

They also have their daughters: as soon as the first period kicks in, they are either told to work as prostitutes finding old fat western customers, or they are sold to rich pedophiles!

 

It is the same in Cambodia, and it used to be the same in Korea.

Edited July 24, 2023 by Rachel de France

[keithkarmann]

31 minutes ago, Scouse123 said:

I will avoid stereotyping to the best of my ability and just talk about where I live, which is a typical Isaarn village. We have a compound and no immediate neighbors. Rubber trees to my left and sugar cane to my right. Opposite us is government land, where a few makeshift dwellings have appeared and small allotments.

 

There are very few around my village that actually work. I do know some young student boys who work at the local hotel part time ( but still eight or nine hours) for 100 baht per shift, If I did that as a foreigner to a Thai, I would be arrested for labour laws.

 

We have the old grandmas and grandpas as does every village, that sit around on flat wood benches eating, doing nothing and watching the world go by. A good few of them have ' good for nothing ' sons usually mid thirties and early forties that have hardly done a days work in their life. By and large, they have alcohol or drug problems.

 

They disappear from time to time, usually when the out of town police have visited and had a sweep and performed urine tests, we are then rid of them for a few months whilst they spend time in the prison.

 

On many occasions I have offered work to locals when they have asked for money, nothing difficult as that is beyond them, like cutting lawns or washing the car. They are NOT interested. They want to borrow only, which means give to them.

 

We do have some guys who pretend to be wealthy and I have seen them in the local hookers bar, of which we have one in our locality with girls from Laos working there

 

After their evening is over, they either disappear to a short time room or get into their heavily financed pickup or Fortuner and drive back and park this new car outside a ' filthy shack'  in the village. It's comical seeing brand new cars outside of shanty houses.  It's the face thing! the only thing the girls in the bar see is the car, not the living quarters.

 

I would sooner have a 3 wheel tuk tuk and a nice house but they just don't see it that way.

 

Even those on the outskirts of the village with big houses, (usually bigger cops, senior government or some of the larger store owners), have big houses with big walls and manicured lawns, but when you enter the houses, there is no furniture except for the odd stool and the obligatory 50" TV and a table to charge the all important cell phones.

 

Time and again, locals and my other half's alleged friends have come to our house seeking to borrow money. They are all jobless of course.

 

it is their pastime when they are not busy trying to sell somebody's friend of a friend's land so they can earn commission.

 

Other than that, they spend their time gossiping about other villagers, playing the illegal lottery, playing hi lo and drinking Lao Kao, whilst moaning about their sad existence.

 

However, this is how they choose to live. It irritates me so I find it easier not to communicate with them except for good morning, good evening and a big smile. It's as close as I want to be to most of them after all these years.

 

Nobody here wants to be ambitious and nobody wants to work. But everyone wants to borrow with no job or ability to repay.

Well said

[Rachel2023]

1 hour ago, Furioso said:

I know you may not agree with me but it really pisses me off to see this..I've seen this in Panama as well, a poorer country than Thailand. They constantly market expensive items on TV, Radio,etc knowing 98% of the people can't afford it. I was with my girlfriend in Panama watching all these commercials and we'd look at each other and shake our heads. We'd drive by car lots with tons of repo's in the lot. Panama was the first country I lived in that had a very small % of people that had ANY money. They even had Lada dealers, people couldn't even afford those. 

 

The vulture capitalism is bad enough in the west..actually it's HORRIBLE and should be criminalized. But in my opinion, in Thailand it's a crime against humanity.  

As far as I know, nobody forces people to take huge loans to buy things they do not necessarily need with money they do not necessarily have, just to impress people they do not necessarily like.

Capitalism only gives the possibility to companies to produce and sell those things, but also leaves the consumer with the liberty to not buy those, why criminalize??

Capitalism cannot be criminalized for the lack of responsibility of the consumers.

[1happykamper]

NOT sustainable for much longer 

[Superlight]

10 hours ago, Lacessit said:

What I don't understand is how used car values can hold up very well under obvious oversupply. Every car yard I see in CM or CR is full of unsold vehicles.

They have no conception of depreciation, that and the tendancy to ignore even essential maintenance, wash it, polish it, and add a few goodies. 

[Gknrd]

No different than anywhere else in the world. Banks loan what ever they can get away with at the time. A vicious cycle. Then contract. By the time people learn the score it is either too late or they don't care anymore. Sad situation for people that borrow.  

Edited July 24, 2023 by Gknrd

[ikke1959]

2 hours ago, soalbundy said:

I think many comments here are a little unfair, stereotyped Thais, lazy, no forward thinking etc. Many have no other option than to borrow for things like school activities, school uniforms, fees, learning materials etc. (also iphones, required at my 16 year old's school) especially as farmers are relying on the coming harvest, they've invested in their crops but haven't received any money yet. Also many small employers, garages, shops, builders, don't even pay the last minimum wage let alone the new one. I know enough Thais with two jobs not just one. I certainly don't find them lazy, the builders at my local temple are erecting buildings that are works of art and work enthusiastically in all weathers with no safety equipment even though, as the foreman told me, the pay isn't that good, their midday meal is the monks left overs.

Europeans with guaranteed wages, bonuses, holiday money, sick pay, pensions etc. enjoy benefits that a Thai can only dream of and due to low state pensions often have to support their parents as well as their own children. Many of you have no idea what these people go through because to save face they don't grumble, at least not to a stranger, they are an admirable proud, stoic people, corruption/rip offs among the little folk here is understandable.

Unlike the UK, where every 7th person is on the poverty line and in debt, there are no food banks or charitable organizations (that I know of anyway) to help out. The system is wrong, not the people.

probably you never needed a handyman for some small work.. Yes they come an check but if it is only for 1 day they are not interested.. and the young people neither... and I am not alone many Thais have the same problem, they can't find anyone and complain. I have a job for a gardener/handyman, with good payment but nobody and asking around, many Thai houses have the same problem...Nobody wants just to say... Of course there are good working people, but I can count them on 1 hand in my neighbourhood. 

[soalbundy]

52 minutes ago, Rachel de France said:

This is very exactly why I hated school! A place where we are supposed to learn? No: a place where we are forced to spend unnecessary money! I mean, uniforms, iPhones, for which purpose??

 

And even if a uniform is not the norm, like in my home country, if you are not dressed according to the new trends, you are ridiculized by your schoolmates and even teachers!

Uniforms were designed to stop the differences between rich and poor, everybody had the same clothes so nobody could come to school wearing the latest fashion and sneer at the poorer students ( children are cruel). Unfortunately uniforms are more expensive than they should be and someone with 3 or more children find it difficult to pay. My parents in England had 6 children and only my father worked, looking back now in my old age I wonder how they managed.

 

At school you are not only taught facts but also how to learn, the logic of dissemination. At my son's school (which I consider very good, highly disciplined) students are often given homework on subjects that the teacher has only superficially touched on, the students are then asked detailed questions on the subject which forces them to search for themselves using their iphones, here the internet is of great value and they learn how to hunt out information for themselves. As a European I have no problem in paying for an iphone but I can imagine for a rice farmer this is no small matter and yet many of their children (where I am) have gone to university. My eldest step daughter won a scholarship at this school and was sponsored by Toyota to do business studies, my other stepdaughter is now an electrical technician. Farmers do know the value of education and sacrifice a lot for their children.

[RichardColeman]

You only have to look down your street to see evidence of the debt - nearly all Thais have high range expense cars and pick-ups. I have tried to no avail to explain to the wife, the people earning the same amount in the UK would be lucky to afford a clapped out old Banger from Arthur Daily 

[newnative]

     My Thai partner and I are forever astounded at the large number of BMW, Audi, Benz, Volvo, Tesla, Mini, and other expensive luxury models we see on the road.  Most start, that's start, at over 2MB.  Many are in the 3 to 4 million price range, with some even higher.  Are there that many rich people, we wonder.   Or, maybe too many people with too much debt.

      A 2023 Audi Q3 starts at $36,400 list price in the USA--before haggling.  That's just about what that model is worth, in my opinion.  The cheapest no haggle Q3 in Thailand starts at 2.55MB,  Almost $74,000 at today's exchange rate.   Is a car valued at around $36,000 in the USA suddenly worth double that in Thailand?   I joke with one of my American sisters, who actually owns a Q3, that she is tooling around in a $74,000 car, even though she paid half that.   We are doing ok financially and could afford a lower range luxury car but we can't see spending a lot of money on an asset that will fairly quickly just lose value.   

     We both grew up being taught to live within our means, and that was a valuable lesson to learn, one seemingly no longer taught much.  I'm sure that sounds corny and old-fashioned to some, but it's nice being debt-free.  Partly that is due to living in Thailand, which has made loans and mortgages difficult, so we have paid cash for everything.  I think it's sad that so many Thais are, apparently, not living within their means and are deeply in debt.  That's bound to be so stressful, at least it would be to old-fashioned me.

     

[soalbundy]

19 minutes ago, ikke1959 said:

probably you never needed a handyman for some small work.. Yes they come an check but if it is only for 1 day they are not interested.. and the young people neither... and I am not alone many Thais have the same problem, they can't find anyone and complain. I have a job for a gardener/handyman, with good payment but nobody and asking around, many Thai houses have the same problem...Nobody wants just to say... Of course there are good working people, but I can count them on 1 hand in my neighbourhood. 

I have never had this problem. I can give you an example. The electrical wiring in the loft in my new house was a disaster, Spaghetti. I asked around in the village and found (oh wonder) a qualified electrician, he had the papers that qualified him to wire a hotel. He looked in my loft, muttered something akin to swearing shaking his head. "You buy me what I tell you and pay me 500 Baht a day," this was 18 years ago. I agreed. He gave me a list, wire class A, yellow plastic tubing, screws, drills, etc. He arrived with a helper but the electrician would pay him himself. It was the hot season, stripped to their underpants they worked, I think, 4 days. I looked in the loft, it was empty of hanging wires, neat plastic tubing screwed to walls and rafters. I gave him a 1,000 Baht per day, he was utterly shocked and tried to refuse but I insisted. Two days later he came to my house with a fuse box, "It's not new but it's better than the one you have, I'll put it in for free, you've already paid me too much," I blushed with embarrassment, I wouldn't have worked in that loft for a 1,000 pounds a day.

[geisha]

I see too many Thai kids with newest iPhones and even cars. An office girl from the condo has a new car, I said it was very nice, a company car, no, I buy, she said. Next I see her on FB , bottles of wine with her friends, or other photos with Dior handbag. Really ? I have a lot of female foreign friends who don’t have a car like this or carry designer handbags but certainly have very good jobs. That’s where education comes in. As one of my Italian friends says ( married to a Thai) it’s want want want everyday. I find thais don’t  have a reasonable limit.

[metisdead]

An off topic post has been removed.

[ExpatOilWorker]

3 hours ago, cardinalblue said:

But almost everyone has the newest model phone…

Next year they will all have an old phone, unless of course household debt increases to 95%.

[Jacques Clouseau]

The entire world is in debt. Won't change until the economy is fixed and wealth is better shared. If people don't get paid properly, they have to take on debt to consume and if they stop then companies will complain about it. This is ridiculous...

[ikke1959]

1 hour ago, soalbundy said:

I have never had this problem. I can give you an example. The electrical wiring in the loft in my new house was a disaster, Spaghetti. I asked around in the village and found (oh wonder) a qualified electrician, he had the papers that qualified him to wire a hotel. He looked in my loft, muttered something akin to swearing shaking his head. "You buy me what I tell you and pay me 500 Baht a day," this was 18 years ago. I agreed. He gave me a list, wire class A, yellow plastic tubing, screws, drills, etc. He arrived with a helper but the electrician would pay him himself. It was the hot season, stripped to their underpants they worked, I think, 4 days. I looked in the loft, it was empty of hanging wires, neat plastic tubing screwed to walls and rafters. I gave him a 1,000 Baht per day, he was utterly shocked and tried to refuse but I insisted. Two days later he came to my house with a fuse box, "It's not new but it's better than the one you have, I'll put it in for free, you've already paid me too much," I blushed with embarrassment, I wouldn't have worked in that loft for a 1,000 pounds a day.

18 years ago.. I am talking about the last years