Complaints procedure - immigration question

[matta]

Laws and regulations are established by the main office. It is well known that every office differs and applies its own rules.

If one reads the guidelines and requirements for, for example, a year extension, the officer may request additional documents. However, if one deviates or sets requirements that go against the general guideline or laws, can the person concerned file a complaint? If so where can one go to file a complaint? To date I have not read a single post from a farang making such a complaint for any reason.

[DrJack54]

So rather than vague rant better to outline how you had issues at your immigration office.

Also include specific details.

 

From my experience most often it is farang not preparing correct docs.

[Caldera]

53 minutes ago, matta said:

Laws and regulations are established by the main office. It is well known that every office differs and applies its own rules.

If one reads the guidelines and requirements for, for example, a year extension, the officer may request additional documents. However, if one deviates or sets requirements that go against the general guideline or laws, can the person concerned file a complaint? If so where can one go to file a complaint? To date I have not read a single post from a farang making such a complaint for any reason.

An immigration office is pretty much run like a fiefdom, deviation from the official rules is pretty much accepted.

 

You'd have to explain what specifically your complaint is. Some "misunderstandings" are easier to sort out than others. 

[matta]

One may consult a search engine or available Thailand forums and find nothing from a “falang” who for one reason or another has lodged a complaint.

This surprises me for several reasons:
 

• a. According to immigration statistics, thousands of foreign nationals reside in Thailand and made it seem that no one would ever have had a dispute with the immigration service for decades.

   

• b. If I don't just look at forums but at social media you are overwhelmed by negative comments, in other words it means that people only write down with te computer their frustration or problems and that's it

   

• c. My personal opinion :

  If you buy and pay for something and you determine that it is not in order, you will also seek to adress this. So, why not at a government agency? If you receive your annual tax and and there seems to be a problem, you take action or not? I understand that there are laws for everyone but apparently not everyone is equal before the law
   

• d. Is there a place or office for complaints or does that not exist?

[biervoormij]

I often read posts about people asking to speak to supervisors at immigration but not sure I believe the people that said it worked.

 

Have you tried calling 1111? I got it from the old url so not sure it will be of any help.

https://www.tatnews.org/2015/03/thai-government-launches-1111-hotline-receive-complaints-from-foreigners/

[BritTim]

I have removed a bunch of posts arguing pointlessly about whether the thread is appropriate, and whether there should be comments criticising the author.

 

If you cannot answer questions asked, or otherwise seek to help, I suggest resisting the temptation to comment.

[BritTim]

In some cases, there are procedures laid out in law for appealing the decisions of the officials. That is the case for most denials of entry with a visa, or for deportation orders. When it comes to extensions of your permission to stay, there is no statutory appeal process if your application is denied. You can ask to talk to the official's boss, and that might work, or it might simply make you a marked man at that office for the future.

 

There is an Immigration complaints line, but they will not help you in cases where the official is simply being difficult.

 

Thailand has an ombudsman. In extreme cases involving senior officials you can take a complaint there.

 

My recommendation (and the Thai way in general) is to try to avoid being in adversarial situations with Thai officials. Do your best just to comply with what they ask. Conflict avoidance is the best strategy. Occasionally, officials may be totally unreasonable, and your best efforts cannot keep things friendly.

[scubascuba3]

I can understand people want to complain when trying to apply for non Imm O retirement, they can make it unnecessarily difficult with the intention to push you to an agent, happened to me, but sadly complaining to anyone won't help may make things worse

[CartagenaWarlock]

1 hour ago, scubascuba3 said:

ou to an agent, happened to me,

Did you hire an agent or accomplished what you wanted without an agent? 

[Skipalongcassidy]

This is Thailand... it is never in your best interest to complain.

[sirineou]

12 hours ago, matta said:

if one deviates or sets requirements that go against the general guideline or laws, can the person concerned file a complaint

This forum is the right place. 

Post you worried, trials an tribulations and we will listen politely. 

Maybe. 

[sirineou]

9 hours ago, biervoormij said:

I often read posts about people asking to speak to supervisors at immigration but not sure I believe the people that said it worked.

 

 

Talking to the supervisor will not help, These people have to work together and Thai culture does not allow for loss of face. Perhaps the Supervisor will have a talk with the  offending officer to perhaps act differently in the future with others, but your situation is set in stone., 

I am lucky to live in an area where we have a professional and pleasant IO

But when I had an issue with an extension and the IO refused to help. I had a conversation with the Supervisor, but it was a  polite and respectful conversation. The supervisor suggested and alternate solution and all was well.

Every time we go there for for whatever reason, while we seat and wait for our turn with the IO she walks over and says hello. 

You can not threaten , raise your voice or be competitive. I guarantee you, it will not end well.

And calling the 1-800 Eat Sh*t -anddie number ????to complain will not get you anywhere, those people also have to work together,  Tact is the answer  in Thailand

 

[matta]

To be clear, I myself have no problem, but this does not mean that I would not have knowledge of the existing difficulties. Additionally to find out where I can go, should I ever have problems myself (which I do not hope for of course)

 

As noted by some, which I agree with, that the necessary documents are not in order when for example, a residence permit is granted or the financial requirements are not met. However, there are also other situations.

 

A few examples: One comes back after a trip abroad on a Thursday and it turns out it's a long weekend. Normally it says somewhere that one has to register with immigration inside the 24 hours However, now the office will not open until days later. These people were fined and according to many, unjustified.

 

To give another example, a bank has an offer and since one must have a certain amount in the bank, someone places a certain sum in a savings account with the intention of getting as much % interest if he leaves the money x amount of time.

When his residence permit is extended, the man goes with all his documents, including a document from the bank saying that this person has this amount of money in his savings account.

At immigration, the officer did not agree because there was no movement on the bank book.

Of course there can be no movement because if he withdraws money, he breaks his contract and depositing money did not go according to the bank's contact either.

 

 

In both cases you are stuck and as already mentioned by many you have nowhere to go.

 

I find it very astonishing that so far not a single person has noticed or even questioned where I can go in such case, and the answers show that you can't go anywhere in case of problems for the simple reason that it doesn't exist. And some have suggested one would have the guts, even if one is completely in right, one still depends on and I quote Pol Maj Gen S. Hakparn corrupt officials. So far the paradise Thailand

 

English is not my native language so I apologize for the grammar

[brianthainess]

I've Never had a problem with immigration, maybe 'coz I follow the local IO rules, that are normally available on a printed list, from most if not all Immigration Offices. 

[Preacher]

One can complain tom the head of immigration, at immigration headquarters. In that case a formal investigation will take place and you will be heard (get visited by immigration to tell your story). Immigration officals are scared and can be in trouble if one folows this route.

 

Regarding denied applications for an extension you can appeal the decision and a higher officer will than have a look. Ultimately you can go to the court and immigration will have to defend its decision and give reasons why they do not follow the rules or ask for extra docmentation.

Often it is simpler to just call the immigration hotline if you think immigration don't follow the correct procedure. Often they will than contact the local immigration office and try to sort things out.

[bigt3116]

34 minutes ago, matta said:

To give another example, a bank has an offer and since one must have a certain amount in the bank, someone places a certain sum in a savings account with the intention of getting as much % interest if he leaves the money x amount of time.

When his residence permit is extended, the man goes with all his documents, including a document from the bank saying that this person has this amount of money in his savings account.

At immigration, the officer did not agree because there was no movement on the bank book.

Of course there can be no movement because if he withdraws money, he breaks his contract and depositing money did not go according to the bank's contact either.

That is why the money must be in an instant access account, the officer was totally correct in denying the extension

[Shop mak]

@matta You do NOT understand How Things Works Here, nor Thai culture and society.

Don't compare with how things works in your country of birth.

Don't attempt to use non-asian logic.

 

Better you go with the flow and accept what you have been told.

Ask any expats who lived here 20-40 years.

We learn quickly to bite our tonque and shut up.

 

Bring a thai person with you to Immigration for help, or, use a agent.

Complain is the last thing you should do, seldom leads anywhere.

If you plan to live here in Thailand many years, read about society, culture, class, money, power. Learn from Thai people. Then accept that we as foreigners, are on the bottom.

We should behave accordingly, to make life easier for ourself.

 

To help you understand: imagine a foreigner tourist or expat in your country, complain about immigration and rules in your country. Would you accept it??

 

If you use search in visa sub forum here, you will find same topic as yours, only a few months ago.

[Red Phoenix]

48 minutes ago, matta said:

I find it very astonishing that so far not a single person has noticed or even questioned where I can go in such case

Your comment does not give credit to the response of @BritTim who correctly pointed out the three avenues you can take when you have a complaint/dispute re an Immigration/Visa matter.

These 3 avenues are:

1 - For some specific Immigration issues (e.g. deportation) there is an appeal procedure;

2 - You can always politely ask to talk with the official in charge of the Imm Office. Although it is true that in many cases he/she would not overturn the decision of his subordinate (not because you are wrong but to avoid face-loss of the latter), the supervisor might offer alternative solutions to deal with the issue. 

Also there have been several reported cases where such a talk with the supervisor DID result in him agreeing with your stance and overturning his subordinates interpretation, that being the case when the subordinate is blatantly wrong. Still in such cases it is recommended that you apologize to both the officer handling your case as well as the supervisor for 'having created some confusion with your application', as that would ease the pain of face-loss. 

3 - There is also the Immigration ombudsman, calling the 1111 helpline.  In such cases it is best to do that while you are still in the Imm Office, and after a brief and polite explanation of the issue to the Ombudsman then give your mobile phone to the Officer with which you have the dispute so that they can discuss it. 

Also here there have been reports of cases where the Imm Officer did change his initial decision after such talk.  But once again avoid to then act in a triumphant way with a Big Smile, but rather apologize to the Imm Officer for not having clearly explained your case to him.   

 

Note: After posting my comments, I saw that @Preacher addressed the same.

[Caldera]

59 minutes ago, matta said:

I find it very astonishing that so far not a single person has noticed or even questioned where I can go in such case, and the answers show that you can't go anywhere in case of problems for the simple reason that it doesn't exist. And some have suggested one would have the guts, even if one is completely in right, one still depends on and I quote Pol Maj Gen S. Hakparn corrupt officials. So far the paradise Thailand

There are countries where the "rule of law" exists, and then there are countries like Thailand. It really is that simple. 

[IvorBiggun2]

38 minutes ago, Shop mak said:

Ask any expats who lived here 20-40 years.

We learn quickly to bite our tonque and shut up.

Tosh

 

[Stocky]

49 minutes ago, bigt3116 said:

That is why the money must be in an instant access account, the officer was totally correct in denying the extension

Errrm, does it actually specify "instant access account", I keep my money for extension in a timed deposit account but haven't had any problems with immigration.

[matta]

@ Bigt3116 where have you read that ( if possible, please provide the link) the money deposit most stand on a instant acces account

      all the information I have found is ' the money must stand on a thai  bank account. There was never talk about a fixed or instant account

I read : 

5.2  In the case of having money in the bank account (Fix/ Saving Deposit) of any bank located in Thailand

 

– Letter from the bank certified the account in the bank of not less than 400,000 baht

 

– Copy of bank book showing money in the account of not less than 400,000 baht which has been deposit and already held of such amount for the past 2 months until the date of application submissio

 

@Shop Mak  we not have immigration offices ( we have many refugees but thats another subject ) 

     You are right after 15 years I still understand the Thai logic. I know this is on me and after more than 40 years working for the justice system, it disturbs me

[bigt3116]

3 minutes ago, Stocky said:

Errrm, does it actually specify "instant access account", I keep my money for extension in a timed deposit account but haven't had any problems with immigration.

You have to be able to access the money instantly, even if that means losing interest, so I am guessing that is what your account allows

[bigt3116]

3 minutes ago, matta said:

@ Bigt3116 where have you read that ( if possible, please provide the link) the money deposit most stand on a instant acces account

      all the information I have found is ' the money must stand on a thai  bank account. There was never talk about a fixed or instant account

I read : 

5.2  In the case of having money in the bank account (Fix/ Saving Deposit) of any bank located in Thailand

 

– Letter from the bank certified the account in the bank of not less than 400,000 baht

 

– Copy of bank book showing money in the account of not less than 400,000 baht which has been deposit and already held of such amount for the past 2 months until the date of application submissio

 

@Shop Mak  we not have immigration offices ( we have many refugees but thats another subject ) 

     You are right after 15 years I still understand the Thai logic. I know this is on me and after more than 40 years working for the justice system, it disturbs me

It will be because of the "to cover expenses for one year" that defines the need for instant access.

 

https://www.immigration.go.th/en/?p=14714

[scubascuba3]

5 hours ago, CartagenaWarlock said:

Did you hire an agent or accomplished what you wanted without an agent? 

i went with an agent for the first couple years

[Wake Up]

Most of the issues I have had in Thailand and immigration was miscommunication between me and the officer. Whenever I got upset I lost. Whenever I remained calm most of the time it worked out for me in the end. Complaining is like challenging their authority and they then refuse to do anything for you IMO. 

[Wuvu2]

The complaint department for all Government offices is on the 44th floor of the Thai Parliament Building ????

[scottiejohn]

18 minutes ago, Wake Up said:

Whenever I got upset I lost. Whenever I remained calm most of the time it worked out for me in the end.

I think that is normal throughout the world but especially in Thailand!

[Jenkins9039]

Have to 'collectively' unionise and sue the state, create rights and processes.

 

It's what all the migrants, immigrants etc did in Europe, and the US, but foreigners do not do in Thailand.

[spambot]

Nine years ago I was refused an extension non imi O based upon retirement because the proof of earnings letter from the British Embassy was 'not correct' - I asked what this meant and and was told nothing more than the same statement when wanting to understand what this meant. I asked the immigration officer to speak with British Embassy and they refused. I visited British Embassy and asked them to talk or write to immigration and they refused. I sent a letter to the head of immigration, at immigration headquarters Bangkok asking for investigation to understand what was 'not correct'. I received the same letter I had sent in the same envelope with a covering sticker to my address. The envelope had been opened and sellotape was used  to close the envelope. There was nothing else sent, but on the back there was written in hand and in English, 'return'.