War of words erupts over Britain’s plea for post-Brexit migrant return deal

[RuamRudy]

24 minutes ago, transam said:

Maybe it's time for you to stop blaming your own country just because it's not socialist...????

Rwanda, Bibby Stockholm - I think only the most blinkered would not look at the performance of the UK government and shake their heads in disbelief. 

It's nothing to do with political bias and everything to do with the seemingly endless series of gaffes that this government of mediocre, talentless post-turtles creates.

[Chomper Higgot]

2 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Inept then.  

 

The UK cannot stop the French allowing them onto the boats. We've already paid them for the job. We can't fix their incompetence.

Here’s the quote you included in an earlier post you made:

m

6 hours ago, JonnyF said:

Absolute nonsense. Biggest load of tosh I've heard for ages.

 

Back in reality, we agreed to pay 576 million to France.

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/03/11/europe/uk-france-illegal-immigration-funding-intl-hnk/index.html#:~:text=Britain's Prime Minister Rishi Sunak,Paris on March 10%2C 2023.&text=The United Kingdom said on,immigration across the English Channel.

 

 

Of course, the French will do nothing.

 

PS we won't be rejoining. So get used to waiting.

Read the whole of that paragraph you quoted: 

 

“
 

The UK paid France to build a detention center and deploy 500 French security officers to enable faster detection of attempted crossings’ 

 

Provided the French build a detention center and deploy 500 French security officers to enable faster detection of attempted crossings, then he French have done what was asked and paid for.

[Rimmer]

A post contravening our Community Standards has been removed.    

[RayC]

5 hours ago, JonnyF said:

 Big mistake given .... the EU's bitter attitude since Brexit. I would have given them nothing. I also would have given them nothing during the Brexit divorce bill negotiations but then I am not a huge fan of the EU as you may know.

And you talk about honouring commitments!????

 

The UK was almost inevitably going to have to accept what the EU offered during the Brexit negotiations as - contrary to what 'Vote Leave' would have us believe - we need them more than they need us.

 

Of course, matters weren't helped by 1) the complete lack of a coherent UK  negotiating strategy; however, this was to be expected given that Brexiters couldn't agree amongst themselves what Brexit actually meant/entailed and 2) the combative and hostile attitude shown by the likes of Lord Frost and the rest of his friends in the Flat Earth brigade during the negotiations. If the opposite had been the case, we might have got a slightly better deal.

 

However, I suppose that we should be grateful for small mercies as - hard as it may be to imagine - the problems caused by Brexit would probably have been even more pronounced if the UK negotiating team had adopted your stance.

 

The bottom line is that (most) Brexiters refuse to accept accountability and responsibility for the mess created by their own hands; it's always someone's else's fault. Therefore, it shouldn't be any surprise that problems go unsolved and escalate.

[JonnyF]

1 minute ago, RayC said:

The bottom line is that (most) Brexiters refuse to accept accountability and responsibility for the mess created by their own hands; it's always someone's else's fault. Therefore, it shouldn't be any surprise that problems go unsolved and escalate.

What mess? Our economy is outperforming Germany's. ????

 

https://www.farsnews.ir/en/news/14020525000481/Germany's-Ecnmy-Prjeced-Sall

 

https://news.sky.com/story/uk-economy-grows-by-0-2-ons-figures-show-12937676

 

Now the Netherlands has also entered recession.

 

https://www.dw.com/en/netherlands-dips-into-recession-after-strong-covid-rebound/a-66551394

 

It's about time you realized the "mess" was merely a prediction by Remainers. What materialized was nothing of the kind. And it's only been 3 years, during which there was Covid and war in Ukraine. Another 5 years and we'll be even stronger. Mess? Hardly.

[nauseus]

On 8/16/2023 at 12:39 PM, RayC said:

 

Of course it is.

 

The whole strategic vision of the EU is nowadays focussed on making the UK pay for having the temerity to leave the bloc. It's all they ever talk about in Brussels and the 27 member state capital cities.????

If the hole "strategic vision of the EU" is focused on the UK, then that says very little for the EU.

 

But we knew that anyway.

[RayC]

4 minutes ago, nauseus said:

If the hole "strategic vision of the EU" is focused on the UK, then that says very little for the EU.

 

But we knew that anyway.

But wasn't it to be expected?

 

After all, the EU need us more than we need them. Only natural therefore that they should structure their policies and strategies to match the UK's. Probably only a matter of time before the EU asks to join the UK.

 

Meanwhile, back on Planet Earth ......

[nauseus]

23 hours ago, Red Forever said:

You do know that the French government wanted to build, at their expense, a processing centre on French soil but the spineless Brexity UK government refused this.

Given that around 80% of asylum applications are granted one can see why the Tories don't want due process. It suits them to have the the knuckle scraping morons on side blaming Jonny Forrinners for the <deleted>e they've had heaped upon them for 13 years .

It's called distraction tactics and it's worked for the Tories....so far.

Can't wait to Rejoin!

The UK has handed over hundreds of millions of pounds, seemingly for nothing. The French government don't want to build anything at their expense but continue to allow these boats to be bough in, or brought into France, then for people to be free to leave on them from the beaches at the Channel coast. The French don't want the smuggled people and seem to let the smugglers operate as they want.

 

The migrant problem was amplified by Merkel. with the EU following, in 2015. The Schengen zone facilitated movement of people northwards - that won't stop until the French and the EU revise their own immigration policies, which gives genuine refugees less chance of shelter but more of them a higher chance of drowning.  

 

[RayC]

35 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

What mess? Our economy is outperforming Germany's. ????

 

https://www.farsnews.ir/en/news/14020525000481/Germany's-Ecnmy-Prjeced-Sall

 

https://news.sky.com/story/uk-economy-grows-by-0-2-ons-figures-show-12937676

 

Now the Netherlands has also entered recession.

 

https://www.dw.com/en/netherlands-dips-into-recession-after-strong-covid-rebound/a-66551394

Now, now. Michel Barnier warned you that you wouldn't be allowed to cherry pick.

 

The wider EU and Eurozone forecasts tell a different story.

 

https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/WEO/Issues/2023/07/10/world-economic-outlook-update-july-2023#Projections

 

https://economy-finance.ec.europa.eu/economic-forecast-and-surveys/economic-forecasts/winter-2023-economic-forecast-eu-economy-set-avoid-recession-headwinds-persist_en

 

 

35 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

It's about time you realized the "mess" was merely a prediction by Remainers. What materialized was nothing of the kind. And it's only been 3 years, during which there was Covid and war in Ukraine. Another 5 years and we'll be even stronger. Mess? Hardly.

It's about time that you took off your blinkers, removed your earplugs and accepted that the overwhelming body of evidence from respected sources (selection below) indicate that Brexit has, to date, been an almost complete disaster. 

 

The links offer mainly quantifiable economic evidence. Things are just as bad on the qualitative side e.g. exclusive of UK from expert bodies such as Horizon. 

 

And where are the promised benefits? How have we used our new found sovereignty to improve matters? Where are the changes to the constitution and regulations to enhance our well-being that we were promised? The new trade deals and other economic benefits? Our increased standing on the world stage?

 

https://www.ft.com/video/91b8a350-5817-4b40-a5ea-c62ec832aa9c

 

https://obr.uk/forecasts-in-depth/the-economy-forecast/brexit-analysis/#assumptions

 

https://ukandeu.ac.uk/research-papers/?_sft_theme=brexit-the-eu-and-the-world

 

(Take your pick of the reports from this last link. You might even find the odd Brexit benefit although, of course, any will be completely outweighed by the negatives)

[RayC]

55 minutes ago, nauseus said:

The UK has handed over hundreds of millions of pounds, seemingly for nothing. The French government don't want to build anything at their expense but continue to allow these boats to be bough in, or brought into France, then for people to be free to leave on them from the beaches at the Channel coast. The French don't want the smuggled people and seem to let the smugglers operate as they want.

I doubt that the French are very keen on having gangs of smugglers living and working on their territory and unauthorized immigrants living on their land.

 

The border forces on both sides of the Channel face a thankless task. The coastline is +/-500km long. It is impossible to police it to the extent that it becomes impenetrable. Stop the boats departing from the area around the Calais region and they will simply move to another part of Normandy. The same problem exists at France's land borders. They are simply too long to police.

 

55 minutes ago, nauseus said:

 

The migrant problem was amplified by Merkel. with the EU following, in 2015. The Schengen zone facilitated movement of people northwards - that won't stop until the French and the EU revise their own immigration policies, which gives genuine refugees less chance of shelter but more of them a higher chance of drowning.  

 

Merkel's well-meaning but ill conceived 'open border' policy was a disaster and, as you rightly say, has made a bad situation, worse.

 

The EU are not going to abandon Schengen, so imo the problem has to be tackled at source. How to do this is another matter. 

 

(I don't understand your point about revising French and EU immigration policies).

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, RayC said:

I doubt that the French are very keen on having gangs of smugglers living and working on their territory and unauthorized immigrants living on their land.

 

The border forces on both sides of the Channel face a thankless task. The coastline is +/-500km long. It is impossible to police it to the extent that it becomes impenetrable. Stop the boats departing from the area around the Calais region and they will simply move to another part of Normandy. The same problem exists at France's land borders. They are simply too long to police.

 

Merkel's well-meaning but ill conceived 'open border' policy was a disaster and, as you rightly say, has made a bad situation, worse.

 

The EU are not going to abandon Schengen, so imo the problem has to be tackled at source. How to do this is another matter. 

 

(I don't understand your point about revising French and EU immigration policies).

There are too many sources to tackle, although I agree that would be the best way. I still do not believe that the French are doing everything they can to stop illegal crossings - they do not have the incentive to go after them seriously.

 

If/when the migrant situation in the EU gets out of control then Schengen will become an issue too, that is part of what I meant about French and EU immigration policy revision.

 

How do these thousands get to northern France? 

 

 

Edited August 17, 2023 by nauseus

[Scott]

Posts violating community guidelines reported and removed.  Keep it civil please.

 

[RayC]

4 hours ago, nauseus said:

There are too many sources to tackle, although I agree that would be the best way.

You might be right, but as I mentioned previously, it is also no easier trying to turn back the tide (no pun intended) at the Channel or en route.

 

The simple fact is that it is a very difficult problem to solve.

 

4 hours ago, nauseus said:

 

I still do not believe that the French are doing everything they can to stop illegal crossings - they do not have the incentive to go after them seriously.

I don't know whether that is true.

 

(The following paragraph is not directed at you)

However even allowing that it may be, I wonder what the view of those in the UK who favour unilaterally returning intercepted illegal immigrants to France would be if the boot was on the other foot i.e. crossings were made in the opposite direction (from England to France). Would they be keen to spend money on what would become a problem for France and/or accept returnees?

 

4 hours ago, nauseus said:

 

If/when the migrant situation in the EU gets out of control then Schengen will become an issue too, that is part of what I meant about French and EU immigration policy revision.

Imo it will take a crisis on an unprecedented scale for the EU (states) to consider amending Schengen.

 

Each member state is responsible for defining its' policy(ies) wrt illegal immigrants. Perhaps, an EU-wide policy would be beneficial but it's I'd suggest that it's unlikely that the likes of Hungary would cede their authority.

 

Postscript: I am writing this while watching the 6 o'clock news. There was a piece about the Channel crossings. Doesn't say anything new but reinforces my view that there are no easy, quick-fixes.

 

4 hours ago, nauseus said:

 

How do these thousands get to northern France? 

 

 

I imagine that some will make their own way; others will pay smugglers but I think that you knew this already.

[candide]

12 hours ago, JonnyF said:

What mess? Our economy is outperforming Germany's. ????

 

https://www.farsnews.ir/en/news/14020525000481/Germany's-Ecnmy-Prjeced-Sall

 

https://news.sky.com/story/uk-economy-grows-by-0-2-ons-figures-show-12937676

 

Now the Netherlands has also entered recession.

 

https://www.dw.com/en/netherlands-dips-into-recession-after-strong-covid-rebound/a-66551394

 

It's about time you realized the "mess" was merely a prediction by Remainers. What materialized was nothing of the kind. And it's only been 3 years, during which there was Covid and war in Ukraine. Another 5 years and we'll be even stronger. Mess? Hardly.

Yet.... 

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn02784/

Edited August 17, 2023 by candide