Work Permit now possible with retirement extension

[Lorry]

1 hour ago, DrJack54 said:

Show me one example of where someone needs to prove that they are retired.

Just before covid,  Thailand opened a new general consulate in Munich, Germany. All new staff. This consulate initially insisted that only retired persons could get a "retirement visa" (as they called it). Applicants had to prove that they were actually retired as opposed to working by showing them that they got a state pension. They were very outspoken about the notion of retirement. As if they had read cleopatra's post.

 

After covid,  they gave the so-called retirement visa to anyone over 50.

[DrJack54]

2 minutes ago, Lorry said:

Just before covid,  Thailand opened a new general consulate in Munich, Germany. All new staff. This consulate initially insisted that only retired persons could get a "retirement visa" (as they called it). Applicants had to prove that they were actually retired as opposed to working by showing them that they got a state pension. They were very outspoken about the notion of retirement. As if they had read cleopatra's post.

 

After covid,  they gave the so-called retirement visa to anyone over 50.

Not dismissing your post but who cares what Germany embassy did during covid.

It's 2023 now.

As you point out not currently a requirement.

Cheers.

[Maestro]

Transcript of court hearing so far - part 1.pdf

 

Defence lawyer to the Judge:

 

Quote

 

Your Honour,

 

the clause 2.22 of the Police Order 327/2557 (2014) and the guidelines published on the website of the Immigration Bureau are the basis for the application of an extension of temporary stay in the Kingdom for the reason of retirement. The Thai text translated as “retirement” in the English version of these documents and other documents and texts in English provided by immigration offices to the applicants is ใช้ชีวิตในบั้นปลาย, which translated literally means “live the rest of the life”

 

The form for the application is both in Thai and in English. The accused filled out the form in English and when, on [date a], he wrote “Retirement” as his reason for the for his application, which was the English word provided by the immigration office for this purpose and which correctly reflected his intention to spend the rest of his life in Thailand. In addition, by submitting all documents listed in the police order and the guidelines, the applicant provided all other facts that the immigration office deemed necessary to process and approve the application.

 

At no point did the immigration official to whom the accused submitted his application or any other immigration official request the accused to make a commitment not to take employment during the duration of the extended permission to stay.

 

 

 

Background information for the readers

 

Police Order 327/2557 (2014) en

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwNib_gx9zYEVXkyUDRsMEFxdTg/view?usp=drive_link&resourcekey=0-EFp3YZ6b2SABP1cMdpDhJQ

 

Police Order 327/2557 (2014) th

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FKhOtv4HCNOP6z0uWiAhpwj_flwhxMEm/view?usp=drive_link

 

Guidelines - en

https://www.immigration.go.th/en/?p=14714#e9ae55b4e215256d0

 

 

[BritTim]

8 hours ago, cleopatra2 said:

The following is taken from the OSOS

" 

• Eligibility for issuance of a work permit to the holder (only for category B and category O (only a foreigner who married to a Thai national); "

https://osos.boi.go.th/EN/how-to/218/Getting-Visa--Work-Permit/

First, let me say that the link you provide is generally very good, though quite outdated in some respects. Reading through, it appears to have been mostly written at least 10 years ago. It was updated to note important changes from 2015. The section on exceptions to the requirement for a work permit was also updated in 2018.

 

As your source stresses, the main controlling law is the Working of Aliens Act (2008). The best translation of that Act I have found is at https://www.thailandlawonline.com/translations/foreign-employment-working-of-aliens-act.

 

It is noteworthy that this controlling law only states (with regard to visas)

Quote

Section 11. An alien who may apply for a permit under section 7 must possess the following qualifications: 

(1) having a place of residence in the Kingdom or having been permitted entry into the Kingdom for temporary stay under the law on immigration but not as tourist or in transit;
(2) not being disqualified or prohibited under the conditions prescribed by the Minister as published in the Government Gazette. 

That is: the law only specifically excludes those on transit or tourist visas. Other restrictions are as prescribed by the Minister, and are subject to change without needing cabinet approval, but must be published in the Government Gazette.

 

The challenge is tracking down all the Ministerial Regulations, and their changes over the years. Mostly, I think these are only available in Thai.

 

Even at the time the OSOS guidance was originally written, it appears to have been wrong in some respects. For instance, volunteers with a Non O visa have long been eligible to apply for work permits.

 

I cannot afford to spend all my time researching this, but I do intend to continue digging. I wish I was better at reading the Government Gazette which I believe is key to figuring out the current rules.

[bigt3116]

9 hours ago, Lorry said:

Just before covid,  Thailand opened a new general consulate in Munich, Germany. All new staff. This consulate initially insisted that only retired persons could get a "retirement visa" (as they called it). Applicants had to prove that they were actually retired as opposed to working by showing them that they got a state pension. They were very outspoken about the notion of retirement. As if they had read cleopatra's post.

 

After covid,  they gave the so-called retirement visa to anyone over 50.

Recieving the state pension in Germany only proves your age, not whether you are employed or not.

 

"Pensioners can earn additional income in addition to their pension without an upper limit."

 

https://www.bmas.de/EN/Social-Affairs/Old-age-security-in-Germany/old-age-security-in-germany-art.html#:~:text=Postponing the retirement age will,pension without an upper limit.

 

[cleopatra2]

4 hours ago, Maestro said:

Transcript of court hearing so far - part 1.pdf 320.37 kB · 0 downloads

 

Defence lawyer to the Judge:

 

 

 

Background information for the readers

 

Police Order 327/2557 (2014) en

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwNib_gx9zYEVXkyUDRsMEFxdTg/view?usp=drive_link&resourcekey=0-EFp3YZ6b2SABP1cMdpDhJQ

 

Police Order 327/2557 (2014) th

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FKhOtv4HCNOP6z0uWiAhpwj_flwhxMEm/view?usp=drive_link

 

Guidelines - en

https://www.immigration.go.th/en/?p=14714#e9ae55b4e215256d0

 

 

Can I ask where you got the translation from.

The term บั้นปลาย  means at the end. And ใช้ชีวิต while relating to lifetranslates to " means of life "  in this context.

Thus means of living has now ended . Which corresponds to the English word Retirement , no longer actively working.

 

When the applicant provided the reason for stay it is assumed that the applicant knows what he is writing.

 

The fact that the IO did not mention ar ask if the applicant intended to work is immaterial.

It is the obligation of the applicant to provide the full details. 

Whilst the IO can request further information  this does not relieve the applicant of this obligation. 

 

If the applicant intention is to work there are a number of other Non IM  subcategories available for this purpose.

 

The granting of a NoN IM does not automatically give authorisation to work. The subcategory of the NoN IM can place conditions on the type of work available.

For example a NoN IM M for media duties , or Non IM F for official government duties.

A person who enters on Non IM F  would not be allowed to carry out work that required Non IM M.

 

Thus given that the extension is for the purpose of retirement. There is no occupations available under this category , simply because the purpose iof extension is for persons not working in Thailand.

 

 

[Neeranam]

34 minutes ago, cleopatra2 said:

Can I ask where you got the translation from.

The term บั้นปลาย  means at the end. And ใช้ชีวิต while relating to lifetranslates to " means of life "  in this context.

Thus means of living has now ended . Which corresponds to the English word Retirement , no longer actively working.

Could it be that they mean something additional to stopping work? One has to ask why they use this terminology instead of the normal word for retirement -  การปลดเกษียณ.

Could it be that they mean something additional to stopping work, like an age thing?

บั้นปลายใช้ชีวิต could be translated as 'senior citizen' or 'one over the age of working'. 

Sorry for the Thai language. 

 

[Neeranam]

42 minutes ago, cleopatra2 said:

The fact that the IO did not mention ar ask if the applicant intended to work is immaterial.

It is the obligation of the applicant to provide the full details. 

Whilst the IO can request further information  this does not relieve the applicant of this obligation. 

Do they usually ask those applying for a Retirement 'visa' if they are going to be working, or stress that you can't work? If not, then it really can't be an issue.

[FritsSikkink]

American lawyer on the subject: Can I Work In Thailand On A Retirement Visa? - Integrity Legal - Law Firm in Bangkok | Bangkok Lawyer | Legal Services Thailand

[cleopatra2]

1 hour ago, Neeranam said:

Could it be that they mean something additional to stopping work? One has to ask why they use this terminology instead of the normal word for retirement -  การปลดเกษียณ.

Could it be that they mean something additional to stopping work, like an age thing?

บั้นปลายใช้ชีวิต could be translated as 'senior citizen' or 'one over the age of working'. 

Sorry for the Thai language. 

 

The term เกษียณ refers to a point in time , thus would be age . It is usual for someone to reach pensionable age and continue working. In this case the person would not be retired, but have reached pensionable age.

The actual term used is to signify that the person is no longer making a living, i.e . The person is retired.

[Neeranam]

11 minutes ago, cleopatra2 said:

The term เกษียณ refers to a point in time , thus would be age .

  I'd say it refers to the act of stopping work. 

[cleopatra2]

12 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

  I'd say it refers to the act of stopping work. 

I would refer you to the official Thai dictionary.

Means gone , used for retirement age.

[Liquorice]

Up until 2018, when I changed the reason of my extension applications to that of being married and having a Thai spouse, previous extension stamps based on retirement, specifically stated 'RETIREMENT' in bold English, not Thai.

[FritsSikkink]

American lawyer on the subject: Can I Work In Thailand On A Retirement Visa? - Integrity Legal - Law Firm in Bangkok | Bangkok Lawyer | Legal Services Thailand

 

RESTRICTIONS ON RETIREMENT VISA

The retirement once approved allows you to stay in Thailand for one year. You are not allowed to have employment while on this type of visa. 

 

Retirement Visa in Thailand | ThaiEmbassy.com

[Lorry]

2 hours ago, Liquorice said:

Up until 2018, when I changed the reason of my extension applications to that of being married and having a Thai spouse, previous extension stamps based on retirement, specifically stated 'RETIREMENT' in bold English, not Thai.

They still do this

[Lorry]

5 hours ago, bigt3116 said:

Recieving the state pension in Germany only proves your age, not whether you are employed or not.

 

"Pensioners can earn additional income in addition to their pension without an upper limit."

 

https://www.bmas.de/EN/Social-Affairs/Old-age-security-in-Germany/old-age-security-in-germany-art.html#:~:text=Postponing the retirement age will,pension without an upper limit.

 

That's a law starting from Jan 1, 2023.

Regulations before were kind of complicated. 

You are right that a German state pension is not 100% proof that the person isn't working anymore. 

[Maestro]

17 hours ago, cleopatra2 said:

...The fact that the IO did not mention ar ask if the applicant intended to work is immaterial.

It is the obligation of the applicant to provide the full details. 

Whilst the IO can request further information  this does not relieve the applicant of this obligation....

 

Provide full details. Like:

 

1. I do not know whether I will be offered a job and if I am, whether I will accept it.

 

2. I do not know whether I will buy a motor-car.

 

3. I do not know whether I will get an ingrown nail on the big toe of my left foot.

 

4. I do not know whether I will get married.

 

5. etc.

 

The immigration official needs to know the details relevant to the application for extension. These details are provided with the long list of documents requested by the immigration office. It is not for the applicant to try and guess what additional details might be relevant for processing the application.

 

Edited August 25, 2023 by Maestro
added link

[Maestro]

21 hours ago, BritTim said:

...It is noteworthy that this controlling law only states (with regard to visas)

Quote

Section 11. An alien who may apply for a permit under section 7 must possess the following qualifications: 

(1) having a place of residence in the Kingdom or having been permitted entry into the Kingdom for temporary stay under the law on immigration but not as tourist or in transit;
(2) not being disqualified or prohibited under the conditions prescribed by the Minister as published in the Government Gazette. 

That is: the law only specifically excludes those on transit or tourist visas. Other restrictions are as prescribed by the Minister, and are subject to change without needing cabinet approval, but must be published in the Government Gazette...

 

Generally, some sections of a law ask the competent Ministry to issue regulations, as you mention, and sometimes a Ministerial regulations asks or authorises a department to issue more detailed rules. The requirement shown in Section 11(1) of the Alien Working Act, "having been permitted entry into the Kingdom for temporary stay under the law on immigration but not as tourist or in transit" is worded as follows at the top of this list of necessary qualifications issued by the DoE:

 

Quote

 

1. Having residence in the Kingdom or having permission to stay in the Kingdom temporarily under Immigration law
(only NON-MMIGMNT VISA is acceptable).

 

 

[BritTim]

2 hours ago, Maestro said:

 

Generally, some sections of a law ask the competent Ministry to issue regulations, as you mention, and sometimes a Ministerial regulations asks or authorises a department to issue more detailed rules. The requirement shown in Section 11(1) of the Alien Working Act, "having been permitted entry into the Kingdom for temporary stay under the law on immigration but not as tourist or in transit" is worded as follows at the top of this list of necessary qualifications issued by the DoE:

Yes, that is another point that leads me to believe that it may be allowed to have a work permit on a retirement extension (though not on a Non O-A visa that specifically has EMPLOYMENT PROHIBITED).

 

Unfortunately, there are no English translations of the Government Gazette  Without that, my Thai is simply not good enough for me to efficiently search for the current rules as set out by the Ministry.

[Maestro]

18 hours ago, cleopatra2 said:

Can I ask where you got the translation from.

The term บั้นปลาย  means at the end. And ใช้ชีวิต while relating to lifetranslates to " means of life "  in this context.

Thus means of living has now ended . Which corresponds to the English word Retirement , no longer actively working...

 

I believe I used thai2english.com to split term up into parts to try and get a feeling for the meaning.

 

ใช้ชีวิต  [to] live ; spend one's life ; make a living

ใน  in;of

บั้นปลาย  last part; last section

[cleopatra2]

3 hours ago, Maestro said:

 

I believe I used thai2english.com to split term up into parts to try and get a feeling for the meaning.

 

ใช้ชีวิต  [to] live ; spend one's life ; make a living

ใน  in;of

บั้นปลาย  last part; last section

Thank you .

I notice that Thai2English only gives one definition for ใช้ , to use .Wherass the official Thai dictionary gives 4 .

However I note that it also gives making a living as possible use of ใช้ชีวิต.

 

The use of ,ใน and บั้นปลาย can be combined and the Thai2English gives this as , finally , lastly, at last.

 

The Thai dictionary also gives a definition of  ใช้ being , compelled to carry out some activity.

Thus I interpreted the phrase to mean that the requirement to carry out this activity ( when combined with ชีวิต to make a living) has become final and no longer required.

[cleopatra2]

3 hours ago, cleopatra2 said:

Thank you .

I notice that Thai2English only gives one definition for ใช้ , to use .Wherass the official Thai dictionary gives 4 .

However I note that it also gives making a living as possible use of ใช้ชีวิต.

 

The use of ,ใน and บั้นปลาย can be combined and the Thai2English gives this as , finally , lastly, at last.

 

The Thai dictionary also gives a definition of  ใช้ being , compelled to carry out some activity.

Thus I interpreted the phrase to mean that the requirement to carry out this activity ( when combined with ชีวิต to make a living) has become final and no longer required.

Update

 

Following discussions with various Thai persons , I am told the term  means end of life , or to live at the end of life.

 

Thus i  stand corrected.

 

[Maestro]

Thank you, Cleopatra2, for having made these inquiries.

 

I thought I remembered clearly having seen, some years ago, "for the remainder of the life" or something like that on the website of immigration or the MfA or a Thai embassy but as I could not now find a link to it I thought that I must have dreamt it and decided not to mention it.

[BritTim]

2 hours ago, cleopatra2 said:

Update

 

Following discussions with various Thai persons , I am told the term  means end of life , or to live at the end of life.

 

Thus i  stand corrected.

I get the feeling that the nearest English translation of the whole phrase is "elderly" or "senior citizen". In Thai it has more respectful connotations than it does in English (except in limited contexts like "elder statesman" or "tribal elder"). I do not think it helps when trying to decide if such a person is allowed a work permit.

[Neeranam]

On 8/25/2023 at 8:43 AM, Neeranam said:

Could it be that they mean something additional to stopping work? One has to ask why they use this terminology instead of the normal word for retirement -  การปลดเกษียณ.

Could it be that they mean something additional to stopping work, like an age thing?

บั้นปลายใช้ชีวิต could be translated as 'senior citizen' or 'one over the age of working'. 

 

To add to what I wrote earlier-  

เกษียณ is what someone does when they have to stop working at age 60(in Thailand) This is retirement but not the same as บั้นปลายของชีวิต. After เกษียณ , if someone continues to work in another area other than their main life's occupation that they had to leave due to age, say until they are 70 then they are now ชีวิตหลังเกษียณ but not their บั้นปลายชีวิต.  So บั้นปลายชีวิต in when you are retired, which could be any age, as you have passive income coming from somewhere. However, บั้นปลายชีวิต usually means the period of your life where you don't work, or do other activities, due to old age. 

Not sure where I am going with this but..  บั้นปลายชีวิต  means you don't need to work but not you 'can't'.

 

 

Edited August 28, 2023 by Neeranam