I've studied more than 5,000 near death experiences. My research has convinced me without a doubt that there's life after death.

[eisfeld]

38 minutes ago, Pdubs said:

Here are a couple articles from the New York Academy of Science on this topic:

https://www.nyas.org/news-articles/academy-news/is-there-life-after-death/

this one describes some of the less easily explainable aspects of NDEs and how the meaning of death has changed recently

 

Doesn't explain anything. Just says there could be other explanations.

 

38 minutes ago, Pdubs said:

https://www.nyas.org/press-releases/what-happens-when-we-die/

“Clearly, the recalled experience surrounding death now merits further genuine investigation without prejudice.”

 

That's just an announcement of a symposium? And the quote you posted just says "we don't know, need to look more".

 

38 minutes ago, Pdubs said:

https://www.nyas.org/landing/rethinking-mortality/

 

That's announcement of a four-part event? Where is the actual content?

 

38 minutes ago, Pdubs said:

another article describes how one doctor thinks these are explainable physiologically and several others who think science can not address the question:

https://www.nyas.org/news-articles/academy-news/what-near-death-and-psychedelic-experiences-reveal-about-human-consciousness/

 

Science cannot adddress the question conclusively *right now*. We've said that multiple times before in this thread. That doesn't mean we wont be able to figure it out in the future.

 

 

25 minutes ago, Pdubs said:

My main point in the first two parts was that you can’t just discount all these experiences and say they are all fake, which it seems we agree on. I’m not sure it’s possible to prove that this is supernatural without trusting the sources or experiencing an NDE so I guess we can agree that it is an open ended question with no current proof outside of trusting people’s stories.

 

Well I would agree it's an open question. But I'm also saying you can't trust peoples stories about supernatural stuff.

 

25 minutes ago, Pdubs said:

To your third point, I guess that could be an explanation for it but I don’t think either of us knows enough about resuscitation and consciousness to determine which explanation is correct.

 

Correct. My potential explanation was just to show there could be mundaine explanations. But I'm not claiming that this is 100% how it went. Just that we don't need to resort to supernatural phenomenons while we simply don't know how NDEs work at this point in time. History tells us that supernatural explanations usually turn out to be wrong and science prevails.

[connda]

5 hours ago, Pdubs said:

Do you mind sharing more about your NDE?

No. Nothing I'm going to write in this forum given the nature of this forum. Most here don't have a clue.

[Pdubs]

14 hours ago, eisfeld said:

 

Doesn't explain anything. Just says there could be other explanations.

 

 

That's just an announcement of a symposium? And the quote you posted just says "we don't know, need to look more".

 

 

That's announcement of a four-part event? Where is the actual content?

 

 

Science cannot adddress the question conclusively *right now*. We've said that multiple times before in this thread. That doesn't mean we wont be able to figure it out in the future.

 

 

 

Well I would agree it's an open question. But I'm also saying you can't trust peoples stories about supernatural stuff.

 

 

Correct. My potential explanation was just to show there could be mundaine explanations. But I'm not claiming that this is 100% how it went. Just that we don't need to resort to supernatural phenomenons while we simply don't know how NDEs work at this point in time. History tells us that supernatural explanations usually turn out to be wrong and science prevails.

With those articles I just wanted to show that it is an open question and many doctors are not sure yet if/how science could explain them. Also just seemed like a good place to do more research. Sounds like we agree on that though, I just think a supernatural explanation is not out of the question.

While some things previously believed to be supernatural were proven otherwise, that is not true of all cases of this. That is a whole other subject though so we don’t have to go into that here.

[Pdubs]

14 hours ago, Denim said:

I have actually had an out of body experience in my late teens so that much I know is possible. Belief doesn't come into it. It happened.

 

But life after death is a completely different kettle of fish . One thing is for certain , we will all die and then if there is then we will know. If there isn't then we won't know.

Thanks for sharing that. Would you be willing to share more about what it was like, totally understand if not. Also curious why you view that and an afterlife as so different. I’m guessing what you view your experience to have been (something outside your physical self or just your brain having some experience) is a big influence in this.

[BritManToo]

On 8/29/2023 at 1:25 PM, Ben Zioner said:

Indeed, you don't manipulate masses through Science. But I love the Bible, for what it teaches, and I ignores all it's underlying childish beliefs. This is where Science helps me.

COVID and climate change say different!

[Ben Zioner]

35 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

COVID and climate change say different!

Deniers' BS isn't Science. 

[BritManToo]

30 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

Deniers' BS isn't Science. 

You stated masses aren't manipulated through science.

COVID science and climate change science are both being used to manipulate the masses.

Nothing to do with you believing in the science or not, the manipulation is real.

Where you travel, if you wear a mask, how you travel, how much you pay, all now manipulated.

 

As for deniers .....

science must always be open to question, or it isn't science.

religion cannot be questioned, you must have faith.

This is the basic difference between religion and science, when you can't question science, it becomes religion.

 

[Fat is a type of crazy]

22 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

You stated masses aren't manipulated through science.

COVID science and climate change science are both being used to manipulate the masses.

Nothing to do with you believing in the science or not, the manipulation is real.

Where you travel, if you wear a mask, how you travel, how much you pay, all now manipulated.

 

As for deniers .....

science must always be open to question, or it isn't science.

religion cannot be questioned, you must have faith.

This is the basic difference between religion and science, when you can't question science, it becomes religion.

 

So with that in mind the question is where do you end up.

Do you see that human nature can sometimes manipulate scientific findings to their own ends in the short term, innocently or with malice, and cynically give up on sensible progress. Not saying you. Or do you see the huge ongoing progress made from science in the long term, including with covid and climate change research, and be open to supporting sensible measures that relate to both topics. Sensible measures that have seen many people alive due to vaccines, and some measures, and for most people total freedom now when it comes to covid.

On this topic I have never felt or experienced out of body or near death experience and it appears the scientific findings are underwhelming at this stage so I'll leave it there. 

 

[JayClay]

21 hours ago, Pdubs said:

 

The government could have made those pictures or videos with CGI. Ok, yeah, I was using hyperbole to make a point. Literally the entire basis of both of your arguments is “I don’t trust your sources” 

 

20 hours ago, Pdubs said:

you can’t just discount all these experiences and say they are all fake, which it seems we agree on. I’m not sure it’s possible to prove that this is supernatural without trusting the sources

 

There's a different between a source being fake, and having any actual scientific merit.

 

Your "sources" are a bunch of people's apparent recollection of things. I 100% believe that these people believe they had such experiences. Just as most people who think they've seen a ghost, or been abducted by aliens, or that the earth is flat, believe what they say. 

 

You do know that, even when fully conscious, we don't have a clear recollection of what has genuinely happened in our past, right?

 

Your default conclusion from hearing that somebody basically appearing to have a weird dream, that includes some recollection of real world events, is that that it must be something to do with an afterlife. Mine is that the brain is just doing what the brain does.

 

If you don't have the critical thinking skills to understand the difference between a good scientific study and a weak one, then it's not a surprise that you're going to be to kind of person who believes in such nonsense. My advice to you is to not going around saying that there's evidence that can't be dismissed when there clearly isn't. 

 

If there really was any kind of genuine scientific evidence for something as hugely important as an alternate dimension (or whatever it is you actually believe in) then there'd be funding allocated to research it. That fact that there's not, leads us to conclude (conspiracy theories aside..) that nothing has been found to justify such funding.

 

 

[jvs]

From what i am reading here you can not believe in God and believe in this near death experience thing.

That has to be concerning to a few people.

I think the mind/brain can do great things and hallucinations are one of them.

That is where i put these experiences.

[Sheryl]

34 minutes ago, JayClay said:

 

 

There's a different between a source being fake, and having any actual scientific merit.

 

Your "sources" are a bunch of people's apparent recollection of things. I 100% believe that these people believe they had such experiences. Just as most people who think they've seen a ghost, or been abducted by aliens, or that the earth is flat, believe what they say. 

 

You do know that, even when fully conscious, we don't have a clear recollection of what has genuinely happened in our past, right?

 

Your default conclusion from hearing that somebody basically appearing to have a weird dream, that includes some recollection of real world events, is that that it must be something to do with an afterlife. Mine is that the brain is just doing what the brain does.

 

 

There is a difference between an experience (and recollection of same) and how a person interprets an experience.

 

Certainly any NDE that is limited to content from the person's past, or content that the mind  could summon up from its stock of memories, can be explained as just continued mental activity of a dream-like sort.  However a minority of NDEs (which themselves are a minority occurrence) include memories of events newly occurring after a person was clinically dead: things said and done during resuscitation attempts, for example. Which means that not just the mind's ability to remember/form dreams but at least some of the senses and ability to understand new sensory input, continued.

 

It used to be thought that all brain activity ceased within minutes of respiration and circulation stopping.  However it is now known that brain cell death is  gradual process and that " if left alone, the cells of the brain die slowly over a period of many hours, even days after the heart stops and a person dies." https://med.nyu.edu/research/parnia-lab/cardiac-arrest-death

 

Add to this that most sudden deaths are followed by attempts at resuscitation that may extend the period of circulation and oxygenation. Experiences during that time may not necessarily be experiences while dead.

 

How all this  relates to conscious experience is not really known. For that matter, the nature and basis of consciousness itself remains so far unexplained by neruoscience.

 

It is not even totally certain that consciousness is a function of the brain though western science tends to make that assumption.  We now know , for example, that  some body organs also contain their own collections of neurons, particularly the heart where they are numerous enough that some scientists refer to it as a "little brain".  Documented experiences of heart transplant recipients strongly suggest that this is capable of storing at least some subjective memories and impressions. Whether or not the heart's "little brain" can give rise to  experience without first sending signals to the brain is unclear. 

 

Some meditative traditions hold that the "mind" is actually present in the entire body. Some (particularly Tibetan Buddhism) also have a tradition of waiting a few days before disposing of a dead body in the belief that conscious experience may still be occurring in it.

 

Asking if there is life  after the death of the body -- which pretty much means, is there conscious experience? --  is IMO a more than premature question given that we do nto yet understand the mechanism for conscious experience in living bodies.

 

[Pdubs]

2 hours ago, jvs said:

From what i am reading here you can not believe in God and believe in this near death experience thing.

That has to be concerning to a few people.

Where did you get that conclusion from? I believe in both.

[Pdubs]

2 hours ago, JayClay said:

Your "sources" are a bunch of people's apparent recollection of things. I 100% believe that these people believe they had such experiences. Just as most people who think they've seen a ghost, or been abducted by aliens, or that the earth is flat, believe what they say. 

 

You do know that, even when fully conscious, we don't have a clear recollection of what has genuinely happened in our past, right?

 

Your default conclusion from hearing that somebody basically appearing to have a weird dream, that includes some recollection of real world events, is that that it must be something to do with an afterlife. Mine is that the brain is just doing what the brain does.

 

If you don't have the critical thinking skills to understand the difference between a good scientific study and a weak one, then it's not a surprise that you're going to be to kind of person who believes in such nonsense. My advice to you is to not going around saying that there's evidence that can't be dismissed when there clearly isn't. 

 

If there really was any kind of genuine scientific evidence for something as hugely important as an alternate dimension (or whatever it is you actually believe in) then there'd be funding allocated to research it. That fact that there's not, leads us to conclude (conspiracy theories aside..) that nothing has been found to justify such funding.

 

 

1. Not really sure what you want as far as actual scientific evidence. The only evidence possible is people’s experiences which apparently don’t have any meaning greater than dreams to you. I think it’s obvious that these alien abduction and flat earth etc. conspiracies are way less supported or legitimately questioned than NDEs. Not sure if you saw it, but I posted several New York Academy of Sciences articles that showed that this is a topic that deserves attention and investigation. If doctors consider this topic worth discussing and investigating, it probably means you shouldn’t discount it off hand.

 

2. Yeah, as I’ve talked about before, NDEs can often describe reality accurately.

 

3. That is a complete misrepresentation of the basis for my position. This is clearly more than just a weird dream and the brain acting normally. 
 

4. Now you’re just doing an ad hominem argument. Could you show me the critical thinking that completely disproves all my claims and sources? Preferably something more than that you can’t trust these people/ their memories. As to your advice, please see the previously mentioned New York Academy of Sciences articles that show that people much more educated in this area than us believe there is in fact evidence that can’t be easily dismissed.

 

5. as mentioned before, there is research going into this area and that usually means some funding. 

[jvs]

1 hour ago, Pdubs said:

Where did you get that conclusion from? I believe in both.

Well according to the bible what happens when you die?

[FruitPudding]

On 12/17/2023 at 2:32 PM, Denim said:

I have actually had an out of body experience in my late teens so that much I know is possible. Belief doesn't come into it. It happened.

 

But life after death is a completely different kettle of fish . One thing is for certain , we will all die and then if there is then we will know. If there isn't then we won't know.

 

What happened?

[Denim]

20 minutes ago, FruitPudding said:

 

What happened?

 

Without going into circumstances  it was only a brief experience  lasting about 10 seconds. I felt my consciousness  leave my body through the top of my head quite slowly like a bubble gradually  filling up above me. As some point the umbilical cord joining the bubble to my body snapped and my consciousness  floated up about 20 feet above my inert body that was in an unconscious sleep mode. I could look in any direction  I chose from this height wherever I focused my attention.  The perception of this state was painless and pleasant. After looking around I looked down and saw my body sprawled out below me alive but minus me so to speak.

Suddenly, this last observation brought about a realization that something weird was happening  and startled me. In an instant I was back in my body and it was startled awake from its unconscious state.

Whole episode  was only around 10 seconds and has never been repeated. 

 

To anyone who thinks I was just having a vivid dream, absolutely not.

 

One reason people are often reticent about talking about their strange experiences is that it gets tedious listening to the disbelieving comments that ensue. For many ,if they have had no such experience  themselves or it has not been conclusively proven and explained by science , then it is all just a sham. If it is not physical it has no reality. And yet scientists can not measure, bottle or prove the existence of something like love . Some people go through their whole lives never experiencing love,either receiving or giving and to them it is just a sham emotion invented by losers to comfort themselves. To them,it does not exist and is pure fiction.

 

As for life after death I don't necessarily see that it relates too much to an out of body experience which is of a short duration ...not a life.

 

One scientist I read gave his opinion that what people call life after death could just be the brain shutting down. As the electricity driving the brain dies out the millions of interconnections in the brain react . The sensation of real time disappears and the thoughts of the mind can feel like a lifetime.

 

Another burning question is why ? Why did this universe happen ? Another scientist said ' well why not ? ' Nobody around to count the failed attempts. This is the goldilocks universe where everything has so far turned out just the way it has.

[LosLobo]

2 hours ago, Denim said:

To anyone who thinks I was just having a vivid dream, absolutely not.

I found your encounter very interesting.

 

Although it seems to have all the characteristics of a vivid dream, how can you be so adamant that it wasn't?

[Pdubs]

9 hours ago, jvs said:

Well according to the bible what happens when you die?

You get some sort of mini judgement (Revelation and the Gospels says there is a big one at the end of time) and then go to either Heaven or hell (or purgatory from which you go to Heaven.

 

In some NDEs, people report going to either Heaven or hell, having a life review (maybe like a judgement). I’m also not sure that NDEs are exactly the same as what happens if you fully die and don’t come back, but either way they don’t seem inconsistent with the Bible 

[eisfeld]

9 minutes ago, Pdubs said:

You get some sort of mini judgement (Revelation and the Gospels says there is a big one at the end of time) and then go to either Heaven or hell (or purgatory from which you go to Heaven.

 

In some NDEs, people report going to either Heaven or hell, having a life review (maybe like a judgement). I’m also not sure that NDEs are exactly the same as what happens if you fully die and don’t come back, but either way they don’t seem inconsistent with the Bible 

 

Do people from other religions that never heard about the christian believe stories have the same NDEs? If not, why not?

[Pdubs]

2 hours ago, eisfeld said:

 

Do people from other religions that never heard about the christian believe stories have the same NDEs? If not, why not?

Good question. Here’s one source and some quotes from it that apply to this question. It sounds like there are common experiences regardless of religion, although they are explained differently based on the individual’s beliefs or knowledge of religious symbols or people. 
https://www.mdpi.com/2077-1444/13/2/156

“However, there is a growing consensus that the interpretations of NDEs are largely based on the available images, concepts, and symbols available to the individual regardless of culture or religion.”

 

”Specifically, many patients who experience NDEs report a stronger belief in life after death, renewed sense of purpose, increased self-esteem, greater compassion and love for others, and a deeper interest in religious faith and spirituality (Greyson and Khanna 2014; Greyson 2015). These results are observed among those who previously identified as atheist or non-religious.”

 

“In contrast, NDEs have led other people away from their former religious views. These people claimed that the NDE was inconsistent with their earlier religious knowledge so that they changed their religious beliefs and accepted a belief in a new religion or were less active in any organized religion.“

 

“However, these experiences touch upon the common religious experiences of human beings regardless of any previous religious or philosophical leaning.“

[GammaGlobulin]

I had a near death experience, two decades ago...

 

Fortunately, I lived to tell.

[thaicurious]

Lifelong lucid dreamer (LDer) here -- born that way (or at least since my very earliest pre-k memories) -- who's also well studied in various mystic schools of world religions (the Dzogchen of Buddhism, the Kabbalah of Judaism, Sufism of the Muslim & Rosicrucianism of Christianity as well as dreaming and so-called sorcery of native cultures such as the Toltec, etc.), and pretty much daily practiced personally throughout my many decades in various dream techniques including lucid dreaming per se where we experience our conscious selves as being self-aware but instead of perceiving ourselves as acting in a physical body we perceive ourselves acting within a dream body w/in a dream we can given practice manipulate to some degree, hey, just like in real life, and LDings many variations including OOBE's aka obe's aka out of body experiences where we experience the self as a dream body but perceived as if dislocated from our physical body, and so-called astral projection AP were we perceive ourselves sans even a dream body but rather as a disembodied point of consciousness and the more commonly experienced especially by the more inexperienced dreamers, sleep paralysis SP, which is simply experiencing the physical body & mind before full sleep where many let their imaginations go a bit too wild. Most freak out upon SP and imagine all sorts of demons & silly things which is of course nothing but delusion but seems very real to the inexperienced, fearful dreamer.

 

Throughout my innumerable experiences exploring consciousness through conscious dreaming, approaching it all from as much of a scientific point of view as I can maintain, I'd say one thing for certain with regard to NDE's that I'm not at all embarrassed to share: I have no idea whatsoever if there's a so-called life after death.

 

But also I can say for certain that so long as alive, we are more complex a being than most might ever imagine.

[Woof999]

8 minutes ago, thaicurious said:

Lifelong lucid dreamer (LDer) here -- born that way (or at least since my very earliest pre-k memories) -- who's also well studied in various mystic schools of world religions (the Dzogchen of Buddhism, the Kabbalah of Judaism, Sufism of the Muslim & Rosicrucianism of Christianity as well as dreaming and so-called sorcery of native cultures such as the Toltec, etc.), and pretty much daily practiced personally throughout my many decades in various dream techniques including lucid dreaming per se where we experience our conscious selves as being self-aware but instead of perceiving ourselves as acting in a physical body we perceive ourselves acting within a dream body w/in a dream we can given practice manipulate to some degree, hey, just like in real life, and LDings many variations including OOBE's aka obe's aka out of body experiences where we experience the self as a dream body but perceived as if dislocated from our physical body, and so-called astral projection AP were we perceive ourselves sans even a dream body but rather as a disembodied point of consciousness and the more commonly experienced especially by the more inexperienced dreamers, sleep paralysis SP, which is simply experiencing the physical body & mind before full sleep where many let their imaginations go a bit too wild. Most freak out upon SP and imagine all sorts of demons & silly things which is of course nothing but delusion but seems very real to the inexperienced, fearful dreamer.

 

Throughout my innumerable experiences exploring consciousness through conscious dreaming, approaching it all from as much of a scientific point of view as I can maintain, I'd say one thing for certain with regard to NDE's that I'm not at all embarrassed to share: I have no idea whatsoever if there's a so-called life after death.

 

But also I can say for certain that so long as alive, we are more complex a being than most might ever imagine.

 

 

Any chance you could lucidly dream up a full-stop or two?

 

That wall of text is... a wall of text.

 

Here's some I have spare that you can borrow.................................

[asf6]

I thought it was rather good, coming at us in a sort of stream of consciousness fashion. Given the topic/content of the post, it seemed appropriate to me.

 

  

[nausea]

I'm with Lucretius on this one.

[JayClay]

On 12/18/2023 at 1:56 PM, Pdubs said:

Not really sure what you want as far as actual scientific evidence

 

I know you don't.

 

That's why were done here.

[Pdubs]

1 hour ago, JayClay said:

 

I know you don't.

 

That's why were done here.

Not sure about that reasoning but I’m ok with being done. Thanks for the discussion.

[thaicurious]

On 12/18/2023 at 11:04 PM, Woof999 said:

 

 

Any chance you could lucidly dream up a full-stop or two?

 

That wall of text is... a wall of text.

 

Here's some I have spare that you can borrow.................................

 

I have reviewed what I'd written and found a few minor typos but one structural error of a misplaced closing parenthesis such that "...well studied in various mystic schools of world religions (the Dzogchen of Buddhism, the Kabbalah of Judaism, Sufism of the Muslim & Rosicrucianism of Christianity as well as dreaming and so-called sorcery of native cultures such as the Toltec, etc.), and pretty much daily practiced..." should read: ...well studied in various mystic schools of world religions (the Dzogchen of Buddhism, the Kabbalah of Judaism, Sufism of the Muslim & Rosicrucianism of Christianity) as well as dreaming and so-called sorcery of native cultures such as the Toltec, etc., and pretty much daily practiced...

 

Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I will endeavor to be more careful in the future.