Norwegian Embassy in Bangkok: New income documentation requirements

[giddyup]

22 minutes ago, brianthainess said:

Well you didn't mention the legal side of it for the embassies, it could even lead to fraud charges to them. IMO 

A stat dec is the responsibilty of the person making it, it requires you to be honest under penalty of law. Can't see how the embassy could be held liable.

[Liquorice]

9 minutes ago, giddyup said:

A stat dec is the responsibilty of the person making it, it requires you to be honest under penalty of law. Can't see how the embassy could be held liable.

Which is why Immigration requested Embassies 'verify' incomes.
Whilst certain Embassies may be able to verify income from government state pensions, which alone would not meet the financial requirement for extensions based on retirement, the difference in additional income comes from private or company pension providers, which the Embassies cannot verify due to Data Protection policies.

[ChicagoExpat]

2 hours ago, Joebuzzz said:

Guess you didn't understand my point.  Again ........  The US Embassy, IS, The United States Government.  The Social Security Administration IS the United States Government.  How is it that the State Department, that runs the EMBASSIES,  can't seem to verify SOCIAL SECURITY BENEFITS ONLY?  They can find anything they want to know on the planet, accept for maybe Joe Bidens MILLION$ hidden in his offshore accounts.  I'll tell you why they won't do it ............ They're LAZY.  That comes from paychecks for doing little to nothing every day of their lives. Move on?  I'd did.  I'm here with no plans to go back to the dem run pathetic country I left.

AND .....

Why is it the US Embassy was happy to take $50 a head to NOTARIZE possibly fake submitted income letters and now that they can actually VERIFY Social Security Benefits legitimately ...... it won't?  Ah, too much work.

Guess you don't understand how the Government works.  They CAN'T do it.  It requires a Social Security office to be open.  Social Security is not the State Department.  Do you think a consular officer has access to citizens' personal info held by other branches of government?  Do you think the Army can access Department of Labor files?  Do you think the Department of Labor can look at the Bureau of Prisons info?  Do you REALLY want ANY of the millions of government workers to be able to see your stuff?

 

For whatever reason they don't have it.  And your criticisms make no sense -- in the same sentence you condemn them for charging $50 for the fake letters, implying they're soaking the public, you condemn them for not looking to make more money.

 

I get it, you hate the Embassy.  And, clearly, America too.  It's good you're staying here -- America has enough toxic anger as it is.

[ChicagoExpat]

1 hour ago, ChaiyaTH said:

I don't think you need to thank god for that, it's not like any USA president was any good for the world, since so many decades. Anyway, I am not even an American but I know you are entirely wrong.

 

They can easily request this information and they would not need access for that themselves. They might just not want to do that, because it likely will take time, to request it, get the result, and then hand it out.

 

The fact that thailand sucks with papers, sure, does that mean America is smart with their action? Not at all, it stops helping Americans with what they need and Thailand is not going to change for America. Perhaps that is your thinking mistake, to think everyone listens to USA.

 

Anyway, I thought this topic was about Norwegian embassy.

If you're not even American how do you know if I'm right or wrong about the U.S. system?

 

One of the many ways you're wrong -- Thailand DID Change for America.  Four years ago.  So take your America hating attitude and shove it.

 

Better to keep silent and be thought a fool than open your mouth and remove all doubt.

[ChicagoExpat]

1 hour ago, Sheryl said:

 

If by "they" you mean the Embassy, no they cannot easily request and access this information. Social Security records  and tax records for example are not  available to them...in contrast to many European countries were Embassies can directly access State Pension rosters.

 

Asking people to bring bring copues of such records with them raises the problem of authenticity as these could be photoshopped and there is no way for Embassy to authenticate.

 

That is not to say there is no way to solve this but it would be complex  and time consuming to do.  What they could (and IMO should do) is outsource this to a private firm which charges for the service. Eben then private firm would face challenges in authenticating what is shown them.

 

 

Chaiya and JoeBuzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz should hear this but they won't.  Neither has any idea what he is talking about but that's no deterrent.

Edited October 5, 2023 by ChicagoExpat
edits

[Sheryl]

3 hours ago, Liquorice said:

Which is why Immigration requested Embassies 'verify' incomes.
Whilst certain Embassies may be able to verify income from government state pensions, which alone would not meet the financial requirement for extensions based on retirement, the difference in additional income comes from private or company pension providers, which the Embassies cannot verify due to Data Protection policies.

Some government state pensions do in fact meet financial retirement extension requirements.

 

Even US Social Security can if the individual's earnings were high enough abd they worked long enough. My SS does and I am well under the naximum SS  possible.

 

And some European countries are  more generous.

 

 

[sqwakvfr]

2 hours ago, ChicagoExpat said:

Guess you don't understand how the Government works.  They CAN'T do it.  It requires a Social Security office to be open.  Social Security is not the State Department.  Do you think a consular officer has access to citizens' personal info held by other branches of government?  Do you think the Army can access Department of Labor files?  Do you think the Department of Labor can look at the Bureau of Prisons info?  Do you REALLY want ANY of the millions of government workers to be able to see your stuff?

 

For whatever reason they don't have it.  And your criticisms make no sense -- in the same sentence you condemn them for charging $50 for the fake letters, implying they're soaking the public, you condemn them for not looking to make more money.

 

I get it, you hate the Embassy.  And, clearly, America too.  It's good you're staying here -- America has enough toxic anger as it is.

Wait a minute.  I have a pension from the state of California.  I just had my pension verified by a bank in Texas because I have applied for an auto loan because I am going back to the US in late 2023.  If a bank can verify my pension income ( I signed a waiver and consented to the pension agency to confirm my income to the bank) then an agency of the US Government cannot or will not? In this day and age verifying an income is not difficult and can be done in days.  Yes, my pension is much greater than 65,000 baht per month.  

[Captain Monday]

16 hours ago, sqwakvfr said:

Wait a minute.  I have a pension from the state of California.  I just had my pension verified by a bank in Texas because I have applied for an auto loan because I am going back to the US in late 2023.  If a bank can verify my pension income ( I signed a waiver and consented to the pension agency to confirm my income to the bank) then an agency of the US Government cannot or will not? In this day and age verifying an income is not difficult and can be done in days.  Yes, my pension is much greater than 65,000 baht per month.  

The US never verified anything, even income coming from GOVT sources such as social security and military pensions. They simply allowed users to affirm an affidavit at Embassy consular sections or US consulates. That ended several years ago. 

[Liquorice]

17 hours ago, Sheryl said:

Some government state pensions do in fact meet financial retirement extension requirements.

 

Even US Social Security can if the individual's earnings were high enough abd they worked long enough. My SS does and I am well under the naximum SS  possible.

You're including the funded portion of US pensions, I'm talking the basic government state pensions, which in the US is $1,000 - $1,200.

https://www.forumdaily.com/en/kak-rabotaet-pensionnaya-sistema-v-ssha/#:~:text=“The state pension is on,utilities (electricity and heating).

 

17 hours ago, Sheryl said:

And some European countries are  more generous.

Finland has one of the best pensions in the world.
The basic retirees state pension amount is 732 Euro per month. Even their higher earnings related pension of 1,512 Euro doesn't meet the 65K financial requirement for retirement extensions. 
https://www.etk.fi/en/finnish-pension-system/pension-security/national-pension/ 

Edited October 6, 2023 by Liquorice

[sqwakvfr]

1 hour ago, Captain Monday said:

The US never verified anything, even income coming from GOVT sources such as social security and military pensions. They simply allowed users to affirm an affidavit at Embassy consular sections or US consulates. That ended several years ago. 

I know that. An affidavit is just a sworn declaration that is not verified.  I am talking about verifying income.  If a crooked American bank can verify my income from the state of California and pre approve a $40,000 auto loan then the US State Department through an embassy/consulate cannot or will not?   This is my main point about this issue when it comes the US Embassy/Consulate in Thailand. 

[Wanderer555]

On 9/3/2023 at 12:03 PM, foreverlomsak said:

Just so that I can understand, you're saying that Norwegians are being treated the exact opposite to UK, US and Aus citizens, who can't get an income document and thus 65k transfers are OK for them, the Norwegians are no longer allowed to use 65k transfers but must have income statements.

Confusing, no wonder my local office will only accept (or so I'm told, I've not asked them personally) money in the bank for both retirement and marriage.

The financial requirements and proof of meeting these requirements are separate issues.

 

First one must meet the financial requirements as outlined below, and then must verify Money in the bank or 12 monthly transfers of 65000thb or more. 
 

This rule is for all expats from any country. 
 

Providing proof of the above is dependent on your country of origin.

 

 

For me, I prefer the monthly transfer option, and for 3 years travelled to the US Embassy in BKK to obtain the required Affidavit. Now I have the bank provide a 12 month statement.

Actually saves me the time and money involved with the Embassy visit including Airfare and travel expenses.

 

Per the Thaiembassy.con website 

Meeting the Financial Requirements for a Retirement Visa:

Financial Requirements are as follows:

• Thai Bank Account showing THB 800,000 or
• Monthly income of at least THB 65,000 (income affidavit from your embassy in Bangkok) or
• Combination (Bank Account + Annual Income = THB 800,000)

 

cheers

[jerrymahoney]

ThaiEmbassy.co(n) is a commercial website. The below is from the official Thai Immigration website https://www.immigration.go.th/en/?p=14714

 

note that item 4. is the bank guarantee letter AND the annual statement

Item 3. is the so-called "Source-of-funds" letter.

 

[Liquorice]

1 hour ago, sqwakvfr said:

I know that. An affidavit is just a sworn declaration that is not verified.  I am talking about verifying income.

Well, firstly, you'd have to circumvent the US Privacy Act by giving written authorisation.

https://www.justice.gov/opcl/overview-privacy-act-1974-2020-edition/disclosures-third-parties#:~:text=The general rule under the,written consent to the disclosure.

 

The UK Embassy required documentary evidence of income before providing an Income letter for Immigration, same as the Norwegian Embassy is now requesting. However, they were not able to 'verify' those incomes with the relevant authorities due to Data Protection Laws, which is what Immigration requested.

 

After the US, UK and Australian Embassies ceased the income letter service, Immigration issued a new order permitting proof of income via overseas transfers to a Thai bank account. However, within that order, they confirmed 'certified' Embassy Income letters would be accepted (not 'verified').
Had they stuck to their request for Embassies to 'verify' incomes, I daresay all Embassies would have ceased the service.

 

Verifying incomes, although possible, would be time-consuming for all involved and was deemed unworkable.
You can't just give any Tom, Dick or Harry from an Embassy authorisation and access to personal information, that isn't how it works.

[sqwakvfr]

2 hours ago, Liquorice said:

Well, firstly, you'd have to circumvent the US Privacy Act by giving written authorisation.

https://www.justice.gov/opcl/overview-privacy-act-1974-2020-edition/disclosures-third-parties#:~:text=The general rule under the,written consent to the disclosure.

 

The UK Embassy required documentary evidence of income before providing an Income letter for Immigration, same as the Norwegian Embassy is now requesting. However, they were not able to 'verify' those incomes with the relevant authorities due to Data Protection Laws, which is what Immigration requested.

 

After the US, UK and Australian Embassies ceased the income letter service, Immigration issued a new order permitting proof of income via overseas transfers to a Thai bank account. However, within that order, they confirmed 'certified' Embassy Income letters would be accepted (not 'verified').
Had they stuck to their request for Embassies to 'verify' incomes, I daresay all Embassies would have ceased the service.

 

Verifying incomes, although possible, would be time-consuming for all involved and was deemed unworkable.
You can't just give any Tom, Dick or Harry from an Embassy authorisation and access to personal information, that isn't how it works.

1) It took my bank three days to verify my income from Sacramento Ca after I emailed them a signed waiver and consent form for the retirement pension agency to respond to the bank.  The only question the pension agency had to answer was this: “Does this person make the income he has stated?”.  A simple letter with the verification and a signature was emailed to the bank. 

2) A consular officer at a US Embassy is not any “Tom, Dick or Harriet”.  These fully vetted employees of the US State Department who hold and maintain at least a Secret level or higher security clearance. 

[Liquorice]

6 hours ago, sqwakvfr said:

1) It took my bank three days to verify my income from Sacramento Ca after I emailed them a signed waiver and consent form for the retirement pension agency to respond to the bank.  The only question the pension agency had to answer was this: “Does this person make the income he has stated?”.  A simple letter with the verification and a signature was emailed to the bank. 

2) A consular officer at a US Embassy is not any “Tom, Dick or Harriet”.  These fully vetted employees of the US State Department who hold and maintain at least a Secret level or higher security clearance. 

It's not your bank that needs to verify income, it's the pension providers.

[Captain Monday]

16 hours ago, sqwakvfr said:

I know that. An affidavit is just a sworn declaration that is not verified.  I am talking about verifying income.  If a crooked American bank can verify my income from the state of California and pre approve a $40,000 auto loan then the US State Department through an embassy/consulate cannot or will not?   This is my main point about this issue when it comes the US Embassy/Consulate in Thailand. 

They could if they *wished, the US dept of State don't do anything more than the minimum. Only providing a minimum of services probably required for reciprocity and international law/customary international law, and US cities services supposedly entirely self-funded. That is why it cost $50 to get a bit of paper.

 

Nothing against our US consular staff they are absolutely wonderful and helpful in all my experience once you manage to finagle an appointment and get past the security guards. 

 

*The government can find out nearly everything, "expunged" arrest record, medical info. To get a real security clearance they do anything. Even send agents to your hometown to talk to people you don't even remember from high school to find out if you lied on your application about smoking weed.

 

 

 

[sqwakvfr]

8 hours ago, Liquorice said:

It's not your bank that needs to verify income, it's the pension providers.

Yes, That is why I had to sign a waiver to allow the pension providers to verify my income to the bank. 

[jerrymahoney]

If the US Embassy in Bangkok were pressed as to why they do not provide income verification services to US citizens for Thailand exension  of stay, they might simply say:

 

Notary and Affidavit services and policies are determined on a world-wide basis. We do not and cannot adapt such policies to individual country requirements.

[foreverlomsak]

On 10/6/2023 at 9:37 AM, Wanderer555 said:

For me, I prefer the monthly transfer option, and for 3 years travelled to the US Embassy in BKK to obtain the required Affidavit. Now I have the bank provide a 12 month statement.

Think you missed the point, US, UK and Aus citizens just need to prove foreign money deposit, no need for an Embassy letter (because they can't get one).

A number of Norwegians have been working this way also, the ruling now is that they need to provide an embassy letter of income not just bank deposits to comply.

[Joebuzzz]

On 10/5/2023 at 12:57 PM, ChicagoExpat said:

Guess you don't understand how the Government works.  They CAN'T do it.  It requires a Social Security office to be open.  Social Security is not the State Department.  Do you think a consular officer has access to citizens' personal info held by other branches of government?  Do you think the Army can access Department of Labor files?  Do you think the Department of Labor can look at the Bureau of Prisons info?  Do you REALLY want ANY of the millions of government workers to be able to see your stuff?

 

For whatever reason they don't have it.  And your criticisms make no sense -- in the same sentence you condemn them for charging $50 for the fake letters, implying they're soaking the public, you condemn them for not looking to make more money.

 

I get it, you hate the Embassy.  And, clearly, America too.  It's good you're staying here -- America has enough toxic anger as it is.

I hate democrats too!