Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[stat]

1 hour ago, redwood1 said:

Does anyone think the Russians or Chinese will be lining up to pay taxes on money brought into the country?......I sure dont....I think the only long-stayers that give a rats azz about any of this are about 50 or so farangs who have made many posts in this thread...

"outlaws" will learn the hard way like Al Capone did IF RD holds up this directive.

[Lorry]

The writing has been on the wall

Edited October 20, 2023 by Lorry

[Yumthai]

10 hours ago, Guavaman said:

If the RD assessor looks at your bank book remittances, you need to be prepared to document the gift to their satisfaction. Maybe a signed note from the giver of the gift stating that it was a birthday present?, for example. It is up to the taxpayer to convince the assessor, somehow.

While doing a bank transfer there's a description field. The gifter should simply writes: "Gift to Mr/Mrs X".

Apart of that, any piece of paper or email will do. How could they challenge it?

[jacko45k]

1 hour ago, Yumthai said:

While doing a bank transfer there's a description field. The gifter should simply writes: "Gift to Mr/Mrs X".

Apart of that, any piece of paper or email will do. How could they challenge it?

Tempting to put some derogatory comment in there if the RD is to take a cut!

[K2938]

11 hours ago, stat said:

"outlaws" will learn the hard way like Al Capone did IF RD holds up this directive.

I will follow the law, but even reputable tax advisors have expressed their doubt about the effectiveness and efficiency of the Thai Revenue Department:

"Although Revenue Departmental Order Por. 161/2566 overturns the longstanding exemption and establishes blanket PIT collection on offshore-sourced income when it is brought into Thailand, the effectiveness and efficiency of the Thai Revenue Departmentʼs collection of the tax due remain to be seen. Generally, PIT collection depends on taxpayersʼ faithful and full declaration of income in their PIT returns filed by the end of March each year."

(https://www.tilleke.com/insights/thailand-new-order-closes-tax-loophole-for-offshore-sourced-income/)

Edited October 21, 2023 by K2938

[Mike Lister]

I would point out that all my overseas remittances into my Thai bank accounts is now clearly labelled as "Income" whereas previously it was labelled in other ways. It also certain that Thai banks report all my interest and income to the RD, they know these numbers before I do.

[paddypower]

7 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I would point out that all my overseas remittances into my Thai bank accounts is now clearly labelled as "Income" whereas previously it was labelled in other ways. It also certain that Thai banks report all my interest and income to the RD, they know these numbers before I do.

all our remittances are always labelled as ''medical expenses'' - not that it matters, until we know ''da rules'' (also known in Thailand as 'for sure, maybe, perhaps, obey my army.............step outside.......)

[paddypower]

21 minutes ago, K2938 said:

I will follow the law, but even reputable tax advisors have expressed their doubt about the effectiveness and efficiency of the Thai Revenue Department:

"Although Revenue Departmental Order Por. 161/2566 overturns the longstanding exemption and establishes blanket PIT collection on offshore-sourced income when it is brought into Thailand, the effectiveness and efficiency of the Thai Revenue Departmentʼs collection of the tax due remain to be seen. Generally, PIT collection depends on taxpayersʼ faithful and full declaration of income in their PIT returns filed by the end of March each year."

(https://www.tilleke.com/insights/thailand-new-order-closes-tax-loophole-for-offshore-sourced-income/)

excellent source to use. the international Xperts based in BKK. will develope some loopholes for their high net worth expat clients. It will gradually filter down to us peons.

[Longwood50]

On 9/18/2023 at 10:59 AM, impulse said:

If you didn't get mugged last night walking on the sidewalk, you're enjoying for free the benefits of tax money spent on police and sidewalks

Please elaborate, is that being held up by others or by the police 🙂

 

[Neeranam]

On 9/18/2023 at 1:04 PM, Conquerbrqvilok said:

Is it like this Thailand thanks us for bringing money and helping their bankrupt economy?? I was on a mission during covid 2019-2021 and opened an account it an IBAN is also a multicurrency account after 6 months I checked my account as I was receiving money from Italy i found they added 22% interest on my principal amount, simply I earned 22% of what o received without doing nothing

This country become disgusting and shameful, they barely think once a year, and once they think they vomit ideas that make you sick

 

AA bit strong. Does your country tax people on money brought in from abroad?

[bugger bognor]

still a lot of delusional expats debating a non story my prediction of 200 pages of crap by Xmas looks like an underestimate , the law HASTNT changed and has been in place for decades!!!! A Statement of 2 paragraphs by an Advisory board has got you loosing your small minds, nothing will change for 99,9% Of all expats, A top legal firm in Bangkok has quoted it would need up to 30000 pages of legislation written up to implement the kind of taxation you fear so much it would also need 1000s of new staff to deal with it is NOT GOING TO HAPPEN FOR ANOTHER DECADE AT LEAST mark my words,and even if t did happen if you can't work out how easy it would be to avoid tax you DESERVE TO PAY IT , 

[stat]

9 hours ago, K2938 said:

I will follow the law, but even reputable tax advisors have expressed their doubt about the effectiveness and efficiency of the Thai Revenue Department:

"Although Revenue Departmental Order Por. 161/2566 overturns the longstanding exemption and establishes blanket PIT collection on offshore-sourced income when it is brought into Thailand, the effectiveness and efficiency of the Thai Revenue Departmentʼs collection of the tax due remain to be seen. Generally, PIT collection depends on taxpayersʼ faithful and full declaration of income in their PIT returns filed by the end of March each year."

(https://www.tilleke.com/insights/thailand-new-order-closes-tax-loophole-for-offshore-sourced-income/)

If you will follow the law then apparently you belong to the "50 people" that care a rats ass about the law as you wrote in your previous post 🙂

Edited October 21, 2023 by stat

[TravelerEastWest]

4 hours ago, bugger bognor said:

still a lot of delusional expats debating a non story my prediction of 200 pages of crap by Xmas looks like an underestimate , the law HASTNT changed and has been in place for decades!!!! A Statement of 2 paragraphs by an Advisory board has got you loosing your small minds, nothing will change for 99,9% Of all expats, A top legal firm in Bangkok has quoted it would need up to 30000 pages of legislation written up to implement the kind of taxation you fear so much it would also need 1000s of new staff to deal with it is NOT GOING TO HAPPEN FOR ANOTHER DECADE AT LEAST mark my words,and even if t did happen if you can't work out how easy it would be to avoid tax you DESERVE TO PAY IT , 

The US tax code which is more complex than the Thai tax code is not 30,000 pages in length although if you throw in the regulations etc it is over 30,000 pages...

 

I wonder if you perhaps have accidentally added a couple of zeros to your 30,000 page statement above?

Edited October 21, 2023 by TravelerEastWest

[beammeup]

14 minutes ago, TravelerEastWest said:

The US tax code which is more complex than teh Thai tax code is not 30,000 pages in length although if you throw in the regulations etc it is over 30,000 pages...

 

I wonder if you perhaps have accidentally added a couple of zeros to your 30,000 page statement above?

Well he said 200 pages of crap when it is only 114 pages of crap so he does have a trend towards exaggeration.

[Guavaman]

10 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

I would point out that all my overseas remittances into my Thai bank accounts is now clearly labelled as "Income" whereas previously it was labelled in other ways. It also certain that Thai banks report all my interest and income to the RD, they know these numbers before I do.

If you want to use the strategy of declaring your assessable income with the remittances, one way to do this would be to label them as: "Assessable income remitted" or for Social Security benefits: "Assessable income from US Social Security exempt from taxation in Thailand under DTA".

 

By labelling the remittances upfront: 1) this amount is taxable, or 2) this amount is "assessable but exempt from taxation under Thai-US DTA", you create an audit trail for your claims when filing your tax return. 

 

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, Guavaman said:

If you want to use the strategy of declaring your assessable income with the remittances, one way to do this would be to label them as: "Assessable income remitted" or for Social Security benefits: "Assessable income from US Social Security exempt from taxation in Thailand under DTA".

 

By labelling the remittances upfront: 1) this amount is taxable, or 2) this amount is "assessable but exempt from taxation under Thai-US DTA", you create an audit trail for your claims when filing your tax return. 

 

I have no control over how those remittances are labelled and I cannot change them, both of my banks, Bangkok and UOB, label them as income. To be clear, these are direct deposits from the UK State Pension and the US SSc. I posted that statement in response to K2938' post and the quote from tilleke gibbons who said:

 

Generally, PIT collection depends on taxpayersʼ faithful and full declaration of income in their PIT returns filed by the end of March each year."

(https://www.tilleke.com/insights/thailand-new-order-closes-tax-loophole-for-offshore-sourced-income/)

 

The whole point here is that PIT collection does NOT "depend on taxpayers faithful and full declaration", the banks have already decided that those direct deposits are income by default and they are reporting them to the RD as such, I don't have to do anything! If they are not income, I will have to complete a tax return to confirm this.

 

 

[Yumthai]

17 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

the banks have already decided that those direct deposits are income by default and they are reporting them to the RD as such

https://www.mazars.co.th/Home/Insights/Doing-Business-in-Thailand/Tax/Deposit-and-Transfer-Transactions-Reporting

 

Each bank will report to the RD only if:

- Depositing or accepting transfers of money in all bank accounts 3,000 times or more in the previous year.

OR

- Depositing or accepting transfers of money in all bank accounts 400 times or more, for a total amount of THB 2 million or more in the previous year.

 

NB: you can hold accounts in multiple different banks.

 

Edited October 21, 2023 by Yumthai

[Guavaman]

10 hours ago, paddypower said:

all our remittances are always labelled as ''medical expenses'' - not that it matters, until we know ''da rules'' (also known in Thailand as 'for sure, maybe, perhaps, obey my army.............step outside.......)

Please reconsider and change your behavior for you own good.

 

Labelling your remittances as "medical expenses" is not only not advantageous regarding Thai income tax law, but could expose you to charges of tax evasion under Thai tax law. Every time that you authorize a remittance for "medical expenses", you are exposing yourself to a potential challenge by an RD Assessor to provide notarized evidence of the mythical "medical expenses" including receipts to the satisfaction of the Assessor. In other words, every time that you remit using an intentional false justification, you are committing perjury, while providing evidence of your crime. You are digging a hole, into which you may fall.

 

There is no exemption, deduction, or allowance for "medical expenses" under Thai tax law. One can claim a deduction for the premium of health insurance up to 25k. A proof of a valid Thailand health insurance policy is needed in order to claim the deduction. The insurance policy needs to be paid during the tax year for the deductible to be effective for the same year. For tax return purposes, the insurance payment date will be taken into account, not the policy start date. 

 

If you face an assessment of your tax liability, you are exposing yourself to intentional misrepresentation of the facts as evidenced in your remittance documentation. You have hung yourself.

 

Section 37 Any person who:

(1) intentionally notifies false statement or gives false statement or answers with a false statement or shows false evidence in order to evade taxes or request for tax refund under this Title, or

(2) by fault, fraud, scheme or any other method of similar nature, evades or attempts to evade tax or request for tax refund under this Title, shall be subject to an imprisonment from 3 months to 7 years and a fine from 2,000 Baht to 200,000 Baht.

 

Section 37 Bis Any person intentionally fails to file tax returns prescribed under this Title in order to evade or in an attempt to evade tax, shall be subject to a fine not exceeding 200,000 Baht or an imprisonment for a term not exceeding 1 year or both.

[UKresonant]

On 10/19/2023 at 9:53 PM, Jinxed1 said:

Does anyone know if money remitted from now to 1st Jan 2024 will be taxable at next tax-filing according to the new law, or is it still exempt?

Thanks

IMHO

If the money remitted is (or from savings and) not from income, or that considered as income under the Thai code,  paid to yourself in the calendar year 2023 etc it should be exempt if it clears in the Thai Bank before 29th December 2023, (with simple explanation if asked, but keep the trail just in  case). Then it all perhaps changes to explain everything potentially from 1st Jan 2024 if your over the 179 Days.

 

There never has been a blanket exemption other than in  the clause that has been anticipated, to expire at the end of 31st Dec 2023. Not seen the formal amendment detail as as yet.

 

As someone that is almost always likely to be principally UK based, and the most I've ever stayed in Thailand (tax year, and only once) was about 265 days-ish, and never more than about70 days at any one visit (since 1993 first visit), the change just removes simplicity.

It's an incentive not to exceed 179days, and if circumstances suggest to be there more than 179days an incentive not to send and spend in Thailand.  A shame really.

Edited October 21, 2023 by UKresonant

[Guavaman]

"In the income tax game -- it only takes one click to break the law.'

[Guavaman]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

I have no control over how those remittances are labelled and I cannot change them, both of my banks, Bangkok and UOB, label them as income. To be clear, these are direct deposits from the UK State Pension and the US SSc. I posted that statement in response to K2938' post and the quote from tilleke gibbons who said:

 

Generally, PIT collection depends on taxpayersʼ faithful and full declaration of income in their PIT returns filed by the end of March each year."

(https://www.tilleke.com/insights/thailand-new-order-closes-tax-loophole-for-offshore-sourced-income/)

 

The whole point here is that PIT collection does NOT "depend on taxpayers faithful and full declaration", the banks have already decided that those direct deposits are income by default and they are reporting them to the RD as such, I don't have to do anything! If they are not income, I will have to complete a tax return to confirm this.

 

 

With all due respect for your experience that you have shared with us for our benefit:

 

The banks only report remittances.  The comments that are attached to remittances are up to the remitters as to what they optionally provide in terms of the details of the remittance. 

 

 

[Guavaman]

The whole point here is that PIT collection does NOT "depend on taxpayers faithful and full declaration", the banks have already decided that those direct deposits are income by default and they are reporting them to the RD as such, I don't have to do anything! If they are not income, I will have to complete a tax return to confirm this.

 

The "banks" do not "decide" anything:  Their information systems only report credits and debits to your account -- deposits and withdrawals from your account. 

[Dust]

3 hours ago, beammeup said:

Well he said 200 pages of crap when it is only 114 pages of crap so he does have a trend towards exaggeration.

To be fair you left out "by xmas" meaning that it will about at 200 pages in a little over two more months which isn't unreasonable considering it only started a little over a month ago. It will take a few more news items about the taxation to keep this thread lit. 

Edited October 21, 2023 by Dust

[TravelerEastWest]

8 minutes ago, Guavaman said:

The whole point here is that PIT collection does NOT "depend on taxpayers faithful and full declaration", the banks have already decided that those direct deposits are income by default and they are reporting them to the RD as such, I don't have to do anything! If they are not income, I will have to complete a tax return to confirm this.

 

The "banks" do not "decide" anything:  Their information systems only report credits and debits to your account -- deposits and withdrawals from your account. 

You may be completely correct - but it makes me curious when I send more than $50,000 from America to my Thai Bangkok bank account they always call me and ask what the money is for, but they never ask where the money is from... As a side note they also give a slightly better rate for above $50,000.

[TravelerEastWest]

3 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

I have no control over how those remittances are labelled and I cannot change them, both of my banks, Bangkok and UOB, label them as income. To be clear, these are direct deposits from the UK State Pension and the US SSc. I posted that statement in response to K2938' post and the quote from tilleke gibbons who said:

 

Generally, PIT collection depends on taxpayersʼ faithful and full declaration of income in their PIT returns filed by the end of March each year."

(https://www.tilleke.com/insights/thailand-new-order-closes-tax-loophole-for-offshore-sourced-income/)

 

The whole point here is that PIT collection does NOT "depend on taxpayers faithful and full declaration", the banks have already decided that those direct deposits are income by default and they are reporting them to the RD as such, I don't have to do anything! If they are not income, I will have to complete a tax return to confirm this.

 

 

Interesting - how do you know what the banks report - do they send you a year end tax document?

Edited October 21, 2023 by TravelerEastWest

[Guavaman]

2 minutes ago, TravelerEastWest said:

You may be completely correct - but it makes me curious when I send more than $50,000 from America to my Thai Bangkok bank account they always call me and ask what the money is for, but they never ask where the money is from... As a side note they also give a slightly better rate for above $50,000.

Sending amounts of that magnitude activate red flags in the US and Thai banking systems -- and CRS. 

[TravelerEastWest]

5 minutes ago, Guavaman said:

Sending amounts of that magnitude activate red flags in the US and Thai banking systems -- and CRS. 

I have never had a problem with that amount. When you have a family here expenses add up quickly... So if a red flag is raised it is a small one...

[Guavaman]

10 minutes ago, TravelerEastWest said:

I have never had a problem with that amount. When you have a family here expenses add up quickly... So if a red flag is raised it is a small one...

With all best wishes for you and your family, I offer this thought:  Problems that never arose in the past -- might arise in the future, even under the same conditions as previously existed.  "The times they are a' changing."

[TravelerEastWest]

16 minutes ago, Guavaman said:

With all best wishes for you and your family, I offer this thought:  Problems that never arose in the past -- might arise in the future, even under the same conditions as previously existed.  "The times they are a' changing."

Correct - you never know what the future holds - I once had a corporate tax class in grad school a long time ago and I mentioned what I thought the new law would be on the topic of the day and the professor asked how I knew what Congress was going to do... I got his message.

 

In this case, all my financial transactions are simple and no problems should turn up.

[Puccini]

On 10/17/2023 at 5:54 AM, The Cyclist said:

...Some people would do well to understand that some people actually know the difference between a State Pension and a Government Pension...

The credit entries for the pension payments arriving from the UK are listed by my Italian bank with the following text on the monthly bank statement:

 

 

 

Terefore, this is obviously a State Pension, not a Government pension.