Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[BE88]

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Edited January 2 by BE88

[TravelerEastWest]

6 hours ago, jayboy said:

You are aware presumably that this small tax consultancy firm - which I have no reason to believe isn't competent - have at this moment no more knowledge of how these developments will pan out in practice than any well informed layman?

I disagree - I took a look at their staff backgrounds and they are experienced professionals. This means they have a clear understanding of past tax laws and practices and will keep up to date on formal tax laws which everyone can read and internal meetings where details are worked out. 

 

Several of the staff have RD backgrounds and they will Thai style keep in touch with those they worked with. I don't know how legislative developments are reported if at all in Thailand before being finalised. In America, it is mostly very open, and legislative debates, etc are public knowledge Lexis Nexus used to be a good source of as-it-happens tax developments.

 

So tax professionals can know the trend and make reasonable predictions that lay people are not qualified to do. Also I liked their summary - very clear and easy to understand - greatly appreciated - most likely their Thai tax experts did the research, wrote the summary, and then a native speaker reviewed and edited it - good work.

 

But no one knows for sure last minute changes can happen.

 

As a side note I like this thread it provides good questions to ask and is calming to talk about important issues as a group.

Edited January 2 by TravelerEastWest

[FritsSikkink]

3 hours ago, retarius said:

No it's not, they could apply a withholding tax to all transfers, easier and simpler, and more likely to get their money. 

No they won't as they don't have a clue which money is taxable and which not.

[FritsSikkink]

2 hours ago, retarius said:

Prove it. Withholding taxers are much more efficient....they could make the banks and money transfer agents tax collectors meaning little effort and costs for themselves. The governments hold all the cars. The US do this all the time...anyone not complying gets hit with a huge fine. FACTA is an example of a government forcing foreign banks, to report earnings....banks already apply withholding  taxes on incomes of foreigners, hope easy is it to apply that to any foreign income sent to the same account. True it up at the end of the tax year. If I were the Thai government I would want all foreigners applying to get taxes back at the end of the year. 

Rubbish.

[The Cyclist]

1 hour ago, ukrules said:

 

Good point - my wire arrived today, just under 250k Baht, I sent it last year and it arrived on the first banking day of the year, today.

 

 

C'mon, dont keep us all in suspenders.

 

Did the bank withhold 5, 10, 15, 20 or 30% just in case you decide to be a tax resident this year ?
 

( Sarcasm was deployed in the production of this post * )

 

* For the benefit f those that need a responsible adult present when they go near a keyboard.

[FritsSikkink]

1 hour ago, Trip Hop said:

Let's put a bit of common sense in your argument?  Thailand wants investment, period.  In the case of an individual wanting to buy say a condo, under your rhetoric they'd have to remit say 20% over the purchase price to cover the withholding tax on the chance that they may get it back at the end of the year or possibly several months after that?  Need I say any more?

Let's think a bit bigger, Car manufacturer wants to build factory in Thailand but first needs to pay tax on an investment of billions THB. The whole idea is insane.

Edited January 2 by FritsSikkink

[stat]

12 hours ago, tomkenet said:

2024 will be just like previous years.

Last years earnings will not be taxable when remitted.

 

2025 will be the first year with the new rules. Last year earnings will be taxable when remitted.

Dead wrong in the case of earnings in 2024 and remitted in 2024. In addition no one knows how and if to prove that their earnings have been from before 2024. In addition no one is 100% sure that earnings pre 2024 are not taxed when remitted.

[Morch]

Earlier today had a talk with my banker (well, she handled our family accounts for decades, nowadays head of a major branch) - she vaguely knew about it, added a higher up in the bank HQ to the conversation as a favor. Turns out the guy's daughter is married to a  Thai, lives here for 10 years or so - he was aware of the situation, had no real advice but wait and see, don't get excited. Says his counterparts in Bangkok Bank and SCB say it will either be a mess and then fixed, or it will not effect little fish. Their combined wisdom was that unless it's a serious chunk of money, might not be worth the effort to dodge it. Bottom line, wait to June and see. If it's real bad, at worst you pay one year, then see what set up fits.

 

Later today at immigration, just started to ask about this there was a general derisive moaning from the desks - no idea, no one told us anything, don't worry, you're the Nth one to ask today....

[freeworld]

15 minutes ago, Morch said:

Earlier today had a talk with my banker (well, she handled our family accounts for decades, nowadays head of a major branch) - she vaguely knew about it, added a higher up in the bank HQ to the conversation as a favor. Turns out the guy's daughter is married to a  Thai, lives here for 10 years or so - he was aware of the situation, had no real advice but wait and see, don't get excited. Says his counterparts in Bangkok Bank and SCB say it will either be a mess and then fixed, or it will not effect little fish. Their combined wisdom was that unless it's a serious chunk of money, might not be worth the effort to dodge it. Bottom line, wait to June and see. If it's real bad, at worst you pay one year, then see what set up fits.

 

Later today at immigration, just started to ask about this there was a general derisive moaning from the desks - no idea, no one told us anything, don't worry, you're the Nth one to ask today....

Good grief, taxation has nothing to do with immigration department.

 

Immigration already has their financial requirements.

Edited January 2 by freeworld

[Morch]

12 minutes ago, freeworld said:

Good grief, taxation has nothing to do with immigration department.

 

Immigration already has their financial requirements.

 

I know.

There were opinions here that it might be added as some extra requirement when renewing/extending visas.

Apparently, I'm not the only one who asked them.

Edited January 2 by Morch

[jayboy]

1 hour ago, TravelerEastWest said:

I disagree - I took a look at their staff backgrounds and they are experienced professionals. This means they have a clear understanding of past tax laws and practices and will keep up to date on formal tax laws which everyone can read and internal meetings where details are worked out. 

 

Several of the staff have RD backgrounds and they will Thai style keep in touch with those they worked with. I don't know how legislative developments are reported if at all in Thailand before being finalised. In America, it is mostly very open, and legislative debates, etc are public knowledge Lexis Nexus used to be a good source of as-it-happens tax developments.

 

So tax professionals can know the trend and make reasonable predictions that lay people are not qualified to do. Also I liked their summary - very clear and easy to understand - greatly appreciated - most likely their Thai tax experts did the research, wrote the summary, and then a native speaker reviewed and edited it - good work.

 

But no one knows for sure last minute changes can happen.

 

As a side note I like this thread it provides good questions to ask and is calming to talk about important issues as a group.

 

You make some very good points, in particular drawing attention to the credentials and added value - particularly RD experience - of the Thai professionals working there.I have now looked at their website.Everything looks kosher.I wonder what their charges are.

 

My position is that information supplied by the RD so far doesn't really need a professional spin/explanation because the whole initiative remains work in progress and the announcements are easily understood (though I recognize some on this forum might disagree). All that might change as we move forward.In summary I agree your comments in full with the caveat that legislative developments are rarely if ever conducted transparently in Thailand.

[quake]

8 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

I know.

There were opinions here that it might be added as some extra requirement when renewing/extending visas.

Apparently, I'm not the only one who asked them.

 

Opinions are like an anus, everyone has one.

no real facts about this at all.

so just one more anus.

 

[Morch]

Just now, quake said:

 

Opinions are like an anus, everyone has one.

no real facts about this at all.

so just one more anus.

 

 

Eloquent.

[ukrules]

1 hour ago, The Cyclist said:

C'mon, dont keep us all in suspenders.

 

Did the bank withhold 5, 10, 15, 20 or 30% just in case you decide to be a tax resident this year ?

lol, of course not.

[stat]

13 hours ago, Ralf001 said:

 

Would you not have to be in country for 180 days before any requirement for tax to be payable ?

With a Mar 03/25 deadline for the tax filing.

Correct I was assuming that you will be a tax resident in 2024 and then would have to pay on remittances for the whole year!

[The Cyclist]

1 minute ago, ukrules said:

lol, of course not.

 

That makes a Canadian Pension and your wise transfer free of any sort of withholding tax.

 

Should be able to make it a treble with my pension payment tomorrow.

 

The doomers & gloomers will be gutted 

[freeworld]

4 minutes ago, stat said:

Correct I was assuming that you will be a tax resident in 2024 and then would have to pay on remittances for the whole year!

Which law or rule is that?

 

You are only tax resident in a tax year when you are resident 180 days or more. Today is day number 2.

Edited January 2 by freeworld

[stat]

3 hours ago, Ralf001 said:

 

How does he bank know it is earnings ?

The bank knows if it is earnings because they see for how much the asset was aquired. However this is not reported in CRS/FATCA. In CRS/FATCA ONLY gross sales are reported. If you bought Apple for 10000USD and sell it for 10.000USD the fatca line will read 10000USD received. Additional caveat every tax agency in the world computes earnings differently, there is no worldwide standard. (FIFO method, changes in currency, is paid interest deductible, wash sales allowed how are futures evaluated etc...)

[Mike Lister]

35 minutes ago, freeworld said:

Good grief, taxation has nothing to do with immigration department.

 

Immigration already has their financial requirements.

Devils advocate stuff again for a moment.....Banking has nothing to do with Immigration either which is why Immi. requires numerous documents and statements from the banks, before a visa is extended, copies of bank books, statements, letters signed by officials, Presumably, in the future, at some point, Immi will put the onus back on the RD to provide the things they demand also regarding taxation and tax status. Which makes an even stronger case for the tax clearance certificate, before the visa can be extended or granted. A lot of theorizing here but I think the probability is high. 

[quake]

18 minutes ago, Morch said:

Eloquent.

 

Always better to show the real turd, than to polish it.

 

 

[The Cyclist]

Quote

 

How does he bank know it is earnings ?

 

8 minutes ago, stat said:

The bank knows if it is earnings because they see for how much the asset was aquired.

 

Now give us your expert opinion on the how the bank knows a

 

* Transfer direct from my UK account

 

* Transfer through something like wise

 

* Any other method of transfer into Thailand that people might use

 

Is earnings....

[Morch]

4 minutes ago, quake said:

 

Always better to show the real turd, than to polish it.

 

 

 

You seem like a nice guy.

[proton]

On 12/30/2023 at 12:18 PM, The Cyclist said:

 

Nice semantics

 

A concert is generally classed as a performance by an individual / group.

 

A raft of concerts, by individuals / groups, brought together under one banner, is usually classed as an event or a festival.

 

 

Concert or a Festival ?

 

Big Mountain Music Festival 2023 ครั้งที่ 13 ราคาบัตรเท่าไหร่

 

Festival not concert.

 

Sorry dear 

 

 

Thais do not make such destinations, a week of concerts by different performers is just called concerts, festival is never used, TAT nonsense promotions maybe, but not mainstream.

[quake]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

You seem like a nice guy.

 

You seem to have been polished. 

[Ben Zioner]

1 hour ago, stat said:

Dead wrong in the case of earnings in 2024 and remitted in 2024. In addition no one knows how and if to prove that their earnings have been from before 2024. In addition no one is 100% sure that earnings pre 2024 are not taxed when remitted.

Well I have made a transfer of 100 000 USD that should be there by first business day 2024 (tomorrow). How could one think it was earned  this year? I'll show them my FCD book, and my USB statement and remittance advice. I hope I am not the only one to have done so.

[Morch]

1 minute ago, quake said:

 

You seem to have been polished. 

 

Nah, more like you exhibit some strange obsession with badmouthing, certain orifices and their product.

Also, reading comprehension issues, maybe after effect of a lively new years' eve.

[Ben Zioner]

7 minutes ago, quake said:

 

You seem to have been polished. 

No he emigrated to Australia.

[Dogmatix]

23 hours ago, Jingthing said:

Another reason that it totally sucks that we don't have the details yet (and have no idea when we will know) is that this is hurtful to the Thai economy itself. The ye olde shooting themselves in the foot syndrome.

 

To wit --

 

People being scared off and not coming in the first place (people starting new households spend a lot)

 

Most dramatically -- BUYING CONDOS! (Or other optional large purchses that you need to import money for.)

Also optional medical procedures.

I think you have to be beyond concerns about money or crazy to buy a condo in Thailand now. 

 

Of course this hurts foreigners hoping to sell condos to foreigners now as well.  The supply of very wealthy, clueless, or insane foreigners is presumably limited.

 

New expats will be effectively limited to arriving after 1 July and buying their condo before the end of December that year.  No need to think about moving and buying another condo, if you are retired and need to import the money.  When selling to another foreigner find another new expat who has arrived after 1 July and is ready to buy before the year end. 

 

This a brilliant scheme to encourage expats to move to Thailand and buy condos.  Countries like the Philippines and Malaysia will be kicking themselves for not having thought of it.

Edited January 2 by Dogmatix

[freeworld]

26 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Devils advocate stuff again for a moment.....Banking has nothing to do with Immigration either which is why Immi. requires numerous documents and statements from the banks, before a visa is extended, copies of bank books, statements, letters signed by officials, Presumably, in the future, at some point, Immi will put the onus back on the RD to provide the things they demand also regarding taxation and tax status. Which makes an even stronger case for the tax clearance certificate, before the visa can be extended or granted. A lot of theorizing here but I think the probability is high. 

But that is tax dept responsibility and its theorising.

 

Immigration already has its rules.

 

In many countries to deal with tax departments they want tax number, ID and bank account and proof of address in country (utility bill or some govt letter)

 

For eg I dont stay 180 days a year in Thailand but I get annual extensions during the time I am here to facilitate ease of visiting my wife. Therefore I am not tax resident and do not need a tin. Why would immigration require something from tax department?

Edited January 2 by freeworld

[Ben Zioner]

6 minutes ago, freeworld said:

For eg I dont stay 180 days a year in Thailand but I get annual extensions during the time I am here to facilitate ease of visiting my wife. Therefore I am not tax resident and do not need a tin. Why would immigration require something from tax department?

Well, TI's computer can easily establish who was tax resident or not for any given year. So you wouldn't be asked anything.