Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[quake]

46 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

It is possible, due to the requirements for RD and Immigration to work together to implement this "small rule change", that the usual helpful workaround at Immigration won't work. 

 

There is no immigration tax requirement. at present.

Stop it now you.

 

Edited January 20 by quake

[Mike Lister]

1 hour ago, jayboy said:

 

Mike, you have done a fantastic job on this forum in clarifying the new tax situation - to the extent this can be done on existing knowledge.The Memorandum you produced was an excellent piece of work, though obviously still work in progress.

 

However you are simply not representing the position accurately regarding filing tax returns in the past by most resident expats, and I am particularly referring to retired expats who spend more than half the year in the Kingdom and have no income of any kind generated in Thailand..

 

You might argue that they should have filed - but overwhelmingly they have not.The situation has changed now, in part due to Common Reporting Standards with information sharing by international banks.So we must comply and the vast majority will.But there is no penalty for not having filed in previous years.

 

I was employed as a senior manager in India and then in Thailand and in both countries paid income tax - couldn't avoid it actually (PAYE). Couldn't have obtained Thai Permanent Residence without paying years of income tax. Since retirement I have never filed a tax return because I had no domestic income but I will almost certainly file for the 2024 tax year.This is also the case for most people in my situation.A couple of friendsmade inquiries of RD a few years ago and were told it was not necessary - no Thai income. Call it the Nelson Touch.

 

So in my opinion you are completely out on a limb on this aspect.It's not really even up for debate.You will certainly say that your punctilious adherence to the letter of the law trumps the actual practice of most retired expatriate residents.Perhaps it does.It's really just a minor detail but if there is misleading information or deviation from reality in just a small part, there's a danger of the whole being tainted. As Falstaff said, Dost thou think because thou art virtuous there shall be no more cakes and ale?

 

I have to come back to this post and make something clear:

 I have no problem if any foriegners hasn't filed returns in the past, what others do in this respect is their own business and I'm certainly not going to be critical of them if they haven't filed. But what does give me great difficulty is when posters try to claim, as some have done and still do, that there's nothing in the tax code to say they are obliged to file, because para X Y or Z says this or that and doesn't include them. That is total nonsense and trying to use that as an excuse for why they haven't filed or won't file, is nothing more than a lame excuse and a distraction.

[jayboy]

27 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I have to come back to this post and make something clear:

 I have no problem if any foriegners hasn't filed returns in the past, what others do in this respect is their own business and I'm certainly not going to be critical of them if they haven't filed. But what does give me great difficulty is when posters try to claim, as some have done and still do, that there's nothing in the tax code to say they are obliged to file, because para X Y or Z says this or that and doesn't include them. That is total nonsense and trying to use that as an excuse for why they haven't filed or won't file, is nothing more than a lame excuse and a distraction.

 

Once again no informed person is saying that.Ignorant and poorly briefed people put forward a great deal of foolish things - we need not spend too much time on them.I also take your general point.However on the particular issue of past filings there is a rather common Thai twist - there was a technical requirement not reflected in practical implementation.That situation has now changed - not as you have pointed out in the legal substance  - and a different approach is now required.None of this really needs explaining to those have had long experience of doing business in Thailand.Planning laws are a rather good example of this.

[topt]

2 hours ago, Danderman123 said:

It is possible, due to the requirements for RD and Immigration to work together to implement this "small rule change", that the usual helpful workaround at Immigration won't work. 

 

2 hours ago, Danderman123 said:

You are saying that money transferred into Thailand has been taxable for many years? So, what's the "small rule change"?

 

2 hours ago, Danderman123 said:

It's possible that filing a tax return will be a requirement for visa renewal.

As someone who has made it clear in multiple posts that they are planning on not going to be in Thailand for the 180 days I think you are well aware of the change.........

The other 2 are just scare mongering at present but possibly could come to pass. But like everything else at the moment it is just conjecture.......

[topt]

4 hours ago, Danderman123 said:

How can Thailand tax ex-pats for 2024 income if they don't make the rules clear in 2024?

TIT - There is still another 11 months to go so plenty of time........

 

 

[jayboy]

5 hours ago, Danderman123 said:

Which begs the question: who here has obtained a Thai tax identification number as a result of the new tax regulations?

I know of at least two people who have recently acquired a TIN not so much because of the recent tax change but because their banks in Jersey and Isle of Man were making ominous noises they would be trouble ahead if they didn’t have one.

[Neeranam]

51 minutes ago, jayboy said:

I know of at least two people who have recently acquired a TIN not so much because of the recent tax change but because their banks in Jersey and Isle of Man were making ominous noises they would be trouble ahead if they didn’t have one.

Interesting, I've had similar with Revolut, an online bank, and 3 cryptocurrency exchanges. Nothing from  Transferwise yet. 

[Danderman123]

1 hour ago, Neeranam said:

Interesting, I've had similar with Revolut, an online bank, and 3 cryptocurrency exchanges. Nothing from  Transferwise yet. 

If Wise demands the tax id of people I send money to, that would be very bad.

[UKresonant]

8 hours ago, Badrabbit said:

How can I get fined for something I didn't know about and not told about, plus I pay tax in my home country ffs

I'm still hoping the main theme, will be, along with CRS compliance, is that very thing, that if you have paid tax on your income somewhere,  things are generally OK.

 

The RD's change of rule interpretation by memo, was briefed in arricles that retirees are not the principle target of the re-interpretation of procedure.

 

RD were not even set up to deal with the likes of tax credits arising via DTA's as the vast majority of Thai RD's customer base will be Thai nationals. Retirees are on the periphery, giving a very small inbound positive Fx base load contribution, and a VAT spend.

UK HMRC just has a page saying to kinda write to Thai RD head office about tax credits, as they don't have have a relavant form. 

 

Not taxing income from previous years, for me was a haven of certainty, knowing exactly where you were, not fearing penalties and the like.  Now it seems to have gone to the other end of the scale. 

 

But at least by keeping remittance basis and the 180 day definition it is not a total deterance on time and inward spending in Thailand, just a substantial one.

[UKresonant]

8 hours ago, Danderman123 said:

It's possible that filing a tax return will be a requirement for visa renewal.

Never done that in Thailand, or a 90day report, always flew back to the UK and came back on another 90 day entry. But I suppose Air fares are proportionately higher now 

[Mike Teavee]

6 hours ago, jayboy said:

I know of at least two people who have recently acquired a TIN not so much because of the recent tax change but because their banks in Jersey and Isle of Man were making ominous noises they would be trouble ahead if they didn’t have one.

I got one in Feb 2023 because my UK banks were making noises about needing one.

 

Having jumped through the hoops to get one, I filed a Tax Return to reclaim the withheld interest from 2021 & 2022, still haven't received the refund so am in 2 minds about whether to bother filing a return for 2023. 

 

Edited January 20 by Mike Teavee

[jacko45k]

On 1/19/2024 at 5:21 PM, Danderman123 said:

not transmit so much cash into Thailand that I am liable for filing a tax return.

Whether you are a tax resident officially may not be the point..... you may have to verify it somehow. One way may be filing a tax return! It might depend on the Visa/Extension type you are on..... A consultant I listened to recently seemed sure that eventually a tax filing would be required for some long term extensions..eg, retirement. Hopefully agents can take care of that too..... 

[Badrabbit]

I'm very very worried about this, I have always done the right thing here, wear a crash helmet, have a licence, have never been a problem to anyone.

I've been very very ill over the last 3 years, I've got no one to help me, I don't know what to do or how to do it, I'm feeling very low and scared about my future now, Im 68 soon, I pay tax on my pensions from the UK and have done since being here(16 years) I want to do what's right but my mental health is a mess, I'm confused, scared and feel like life is not worth living, no I'm not going to anything silly, I have a Thai gf and her daughter to support, I won't let them down and never have since being with them for 16 years, I'm just very worried and in constant pain.

I've been to every Hospital on Phuket, not one has been able to stop my constant pain, I'm at an all time low.

Edited January 20 by Badrabbit

[Mike Teavee]

11 minutes ago, Badrabbit said:

I'm very very worried about this, I have always done the right thing here, wear a crash helmet, have a licence, have never been a problem to anyone.

I've been very very ill over the last 3 years, I've got no one to help me, I don't know what to do or how to do it, I'm feeling very low and scared about my future now, Im 68 soon, I pay tax on my pensions from the UK and have done since being here(16 years) I want to do what's right but my mental health is a mess, I'm confused, scared and feel like life is not worth living, no I'm not going to anything silly I'm just very worried and in constant pain.

I honestly wouldn't worry about it as Thai RD already know how to handle people who's only income comes from Pensions & you can be assured that unless you have a huge pension any tax due in Thailand will be minimal. 

 

 

I'm not sure which country you're from but if you're from the UK you should get an annual statement for your Pensions (P60 for private ones, not sure what the State Pension one is called) & this/these are all you'll need to provide to the RD should you need to complete a Tax Return... They will pro-rata these out for you if your tax year doesn't align to the Thai Tax year (UK being 6th April - 5th April).

 

It's people who have more "Complicated" income like Salary/Income from Businesses outside of Thailand, Royalties, Capital Gains, Rental Income etc... That might have a harder job in completing their return & may need to file Tax Returns in the other countries to provide evidence to RD.

   

 

 

Edited January 20 by Mike Teavee

[Badrabbit]

21 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

I honestly wouldn't worry about it as Thai RD already know how to handle people who's only income comes from Pensions & you can be assured that unless you have a huge pension any tax due in Thailand will be minimal. 

 

 

I'm not sure which country you're from but if you're from the UK you should get an annual statement for your Pensions (P60 for private ones, not sure what the State Pension one is called) & this/these are all you'll need to provide to the RD should you need to complete a Tax Return... They will pro-rata these out for you if your tax year doesn't align to the Thai Tax year (UK being 6th April - 5th April).

 

It's people who have more "Complicated" income like Salary/Income from Businesses outside of Thailand, Royalties, Capital Gains, Rental Income etc... That might have a harder job in completing their return & may need to file Tax Returns in the other countries to provide evidence to RD.

   

 

 

I have 3 Pensions tottaling 75,000bht per month, London Fire Brigade, Tesco UK and the UK Government State Pension.

How do I get a tax Id code from, where do I go and will it cost me money.

[Mike Lister]

34 minutes ago, Badrabbit said:

I'm very very worried about this, I have always done the right thing here, wear a crash helmet, have a licence, have never been a problem to anyone.

I've been very very ill over the last 3 years, I've got no one to help me, I don't know what to do or how to do it, I'm feeling very low and scared about my future now, Im 68 soon, I pay tax on my pensions from the UK and have done since being here(16 years) I want to do what's right but my mental health is a mess, I'm confused, scared and feel like life is not worth living, no I'm not going to anything silly, I have a Thai gf and her daughter to support, I won't let them down and never have since being with them for 16 years, I'm just very worried and in constant pain.

I've been to every Hospital on Phuket, not one has been able to stop my constant pain, I'm at an all time low.

After I get back home in two days time, if you want, you and I can get together on a on to to one and go through everything that concerns you. I'm pretty certain you will quickly come to realize that this not a big deal and that you are concerned for no good reason....in the meantime, relax. I'll send you a PM with my email address and number

 

[UKresonant]

24 minutes ago, Badrabbit said:

I'm very very worried about this, I have always done the right thing here, wear a crash helmet, have a licence, have never been a problem to anyone.

I've been very very ill over the last 3 years, I've got no one to help me, I don't know what to do or how to do it, I'm feeling very low and scared about my future now, Im 68 soon, I pay tax on my pensions from the UK and have done since being here(16 years) I want to do what's right but my mental health is a mess, I'm confused, scared and feel like life is not worth living, no I'm not going to anything silly, I have a Thai gf and her daughter to support, I won't let them down and never have since being with them for 16 years, I'm just very worried and in constant pain.

I've been to every Hospital on Phuket, not one has been able to stop my constant pain, I'm at an all time low.

I'm very sorry that you are feeling so low.

I would try and not worry about this tax thing, someone will be able to help in due course, and many will have very similar situation. Just keep copies of your pay advices from your pensions, and.your P60 and annual  state pension letter, and tax coding letter Issued in the the UK, from now on. (I think just forget about anything before 2023)

 

Your health is always the most important priority, life is always worth living...Wishing you well.

[UKresonant]

Just now, Badrabbit said:

I have 3 Pensions tottaling 75,000bht per month, London Fire Brigade, Tesco UK and the UK Government State Pension.

How do I get a tax Id code from, where do I go and will it cost me money.

https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/international-manual/intm343040

 

Fire Brigade - paid directly by a Local Authority

Fire Brigade - paid by a Fire Authority (Fire Fighter's Pension Scheme)

 

These are classed a Government Pensions and are only taxed in the UK unless you have Thai Nationality!

 

[Badrabbit]

11 minutes ago, UKresonant said:

https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/international-manual/intm343040

 

Fire Brigade - paid directly by a Local Authority

Fire Brigade - paid by a Fire Authority (Fire Fighter's Pension Scheme)

 

These are classed a Government Pensions and are only taxed in the UK unless you have Thai Nationality!

 

I do not have Thai Nationality.

Is it the same for the UK state pension?

Edited January 21 by Badrabbit

[UKresonant]

Just now, Badrabbit said:

I do not have Thai Nationality.

Is it the same for the UK state pension?

 

No unfortunately our DTA does not a a specific clause similar to the USA Social Sec , for the UK State pension scheme, (but further clarification on the state pension may evolve perhaps)

 

Especially if the majority of your pension service years were with the Fire Brigade, I'm already anticipating the various over 65 allowances shall reduce the amount of the Tesco and State pensions, that will be considered in any RD Tax calculation.

 

So I'm Guessing something like (monthly)

Fire Brigade = No Thai Tax

State Pension + Tesco Pension per month, take away about 32000 baht a month for allowances and the zero Tax band, then anything not cancelled out, if any, has only 5% tax (for the next 12.5k/month)

 

You should also be able to claim a Tax Credit for the Tax paid on the Tesco PAYE which will then equate it to the net amount sent to Thailand, as you say the Tax is deducted in the UK.

The state pension will have no Tax deducted, it will therefore not generate any Tax Credit.

 

Edited January 21 by UKresonant

[Badrabbit]

8 minutes ago, UKresonant said:

 

No unfortunately our DTA does not a a specific clause similar to the USA Social Sec , for the UK State pension scheme, (but further clarification on the state pension may evolve perhaps)

 

Especially if the majority of your pension service years were with the Fire Brigade, I'm already anticipating the various over 65 allowances shall reduce the amount of the Tesco and State pensions, that will be considered in any RD Tax calculation.

 

So I'm Guessing something like (monthly)

Fire Brigade = No Thai Tax

State Pension + Tesco Pension per month, take away about 32000 baht a month for allowances and the zero Tax band, then anything not cancelled out, if any, has only 5% tax (for the next 12.5k/month)

My Tesco penson is not worth considering as it's only approx 1700bht per month

[pomchop]

On 9/18/2023 at 10:42 AM, freeworld said:

Its about tax residence ie basically 180 days over living in Thailand and one is considered tax resident, nothing to do with a visa length or immigration.

 So is it per calendar year or any 180 days even if spread over two calendar years?  If i stay 90 days then leave for a week and return for a final 90 days does that make me a tax resident?

[Badrabbit]

9 minutes ago, UKresonant said:

 

No unfortunately our DTA does not a a specific clause similar to the USA Social Sec , for the UK State pension scheme, (but further clarification on the state pension may evolve perhaps)

 

Especially if the majority of your pension service years were with the Fire Brigade, I'm already anticipating the various over 65 allowances shall reduce the amount of the Tesco and State pensions, that will be considered in any RD Tax calculation.

 

So I'm Guessing something like (monthly)

Fire Brigade = No Thai Tax

State Pension + Tesco Pension per month, take away about 32000 baht a month for allowances and the zero Tax band, then anything not cancelled out, if any, has only 5% tax (for the next 12.5k/month)

Sorry I'm thick when it comes to calculations, don't really understand what you have said. Sorry.

[UWEB]

2 minutes ago, pomchop said:

 So is it per calendar year or any 180 days even if spread over two calendar years?  If i stay 90 days then leave for a week and return for a final 90 days does that make me a tax resident?

It's 180 days per Calendar year, doesn't matter if you make a break and come back.

[UKresonant]

Just now, Badrabbit said:

My Tesco penson is not worth considering as it's only approx 1700bht per month

 

Every little helps as they say!

 

Your fire brigade pension was a contracted out scheme, same as my occupation service scheme(s), so based on what the state pension is now.

 

=My rough calculation is that your unlikely going to be paying any Thai Tax!  (and had  no tax to pay 

going back at least 3 years)

 

Only hassle is to gather up as much of the pension paperwork as possible in case you have to file,.

Edited January 21 by UKresonant

[pomchop]

Just now, UWEB said:

It's 180 days per Calendar year, doesn't matter if you make a break and come back.

thank you.... as i come to thailand in fall of 2023 so about 3 months in that calendar year and then leave 3 months into the next calendar year...so i guess i need to be aware that the 3 months in jan feb mar 2024 are added to 3 months in oct nov dec of 2024...so now instead of coming back oct 1 i will wait til about oct 15....and spend a total of about 170 days in thailand.  I am not much worried about it all but i guess better safe to just keep it under 180 days.

[Rimmer]

An off topic troll post has been removed. Can you read the topic title please:

 

Thai government to tax all income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024

[nong38]

Just have to wait and see what happens by about March 2025, otherwise its pure speculation. 

Thailand has 61 double agreements with other countries and they all appear to be different and the wording in some is ambiguous. Tax authorities want their share of your money, your home country gets first grab and now maybe Thailand wants another go and then its up to you to try and get a refund, meanwhile they get the interest on the contested amount.

I have a Thai tax ID for claiming back interest at the bank but I guess a lot do not so you wait and see if they get in touch, same as me next year.

If you have a wife, maybe she does not have a Thai tax ID, nudge nudge, wink wink.

For those of you with T/F then you are probably better positioned.

[Mike Lister]

8 minutes ago, nong38 said:

Just have to wait and see what happens by about March 2025, otherwise its pure speculation. 

Thailand has 61 double agreements with other countries and they all appear to be different and the wording in some is ambiguous. Tax authorities want their share of your money, your home country gets first grab and now maybe Thailand wants another go and then its up to you to try and get a refund, meanwhile they get the interest on the contested amount.

I have a Thai tax ID for claiming back interest at the bank but I guess a lot do not so you wait and see if they get in touch, same as me next year.

If you have a wife, maybe she does not have a Thai tax ID, nudge nudge, wink wink.

For those of you with T/F then you are probably better positioned.

The Thai id card number is their tax id.

[TravelerEastWest]

5 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

I honestly wouldn't worry about it as Thai RD already know how to handle people who's only income comes from Pensions & you can be assured that unless you have a huge pension any tax due in Thailand will be minimal. 

 

 

I'm not sure which country you're from but if you're from the UK you should get an annual statement for your Pensions (P60 for private ones, not sure what the State Pension one is called) & this/these are all you'll need to provide to the RD should you need to complete a Tax Return... They will pro-rata these out for you if your tax year doesn't align to the Thai Tax year (UK being 6th April - 5th April).

 

It's people who have more "Complicated" income like Salary/Income from Businesses outside of Thailand, Royalties, Capital Gains, Rental Income etc... That might have a harder job in completing their return & may need to file Tax Returns in the other countries to provide evidence to RD.

   

 

 

Bad Rabbit, 

 

I agree with Mike - please don't worry, instead focus on your health - whatever you do don't take advice in tax matters from well meaning non professionals who know very little about Thai tax matters. This could possibly create serious problems for you.

 

I have a tax background but I don't read Thai and I would not considering trusting my own understanding of Thai tax laws... so I have a bilingual Thai CPA who went to a top university in Bangkok and has many years experience. Plus as needed I will consult with tax attorneys who are trained in Thai tax laws. But I have a Thai business and my situation is complicated - for you a Thai bilingual CPA should be fine. And not expensive! I repeat not expensive.