Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[TroubleandGrumpy]

6 hours ago, moogradod said:

And you may add to Retirement and Marriage as well Thai Elite (now Prestige). So your main worries are as well mine. Payment is not the problem. But I do not want to approach the RD before all open questions are answered. So far Thai Elite has many times been advertised as tax free. But this seems now definitely not to be the case, only certain other Long Stay Visa.

 

So for preparation I do need the most professional accountant  / tax specialist there is in Chonburi or I really get seriously disturbed in the mind. Or may I safely relax for some more weeks ? Anybody knows someone with real expertise and possibly connections to the RD ? If Yes then pls. mail. Thanks.

The main thing to remember about this issue is that it could be a huge worry.

But there will not be any actual negative oputcomes until 2025 - after the 2024 tax year.

Hopefully, during this year or 2024 the Thai RD will release statement/s saying what they view about the money being brought into Thailand by Expats who are Retired or Married - as per our Visa requiements.

Should they say any Expat bringing into Thaioland more than 150K Baht must lodge a tax return and claim the 'tax credits' (as per the DTA) for taxes already paid, then that is very bad.

Should they say any Expat that is bringing into Thaioland more than 150K Baht does not have to lodge a tax return, unless that or part of that money is from income earned overseas, then that is very good.

I think it will be something in between those two extremes - we all have to wait for the details.

What we are doing now is discussing all the intracies and details of whther this is a problem or not, and in what situations is it a problem or not - if that worries you, then best to stay away.

If/when Thai RD issues a statement - then there will be a headline - their last statement was totaly rubbish.

There is a lawyer whoi has a Yourtube channel, a few do actually, and he has a 'legal' pratice that is know to have 'integity' and he has made a few viseos about this - he says we have to wait - he has been here a long time (is a USA citizen Lawyer who became a Thai citizen). He thinks they dont 'mean' to nail Expats on retirement or married, but until it is clarified how they will do this change, no one really knows.  

[atpeace]

Would not the Thai Government be informing Foreigners bank transfers would be taxed in a few months from now?  The answer is yes.-yes-yes.  The regulation has nothing to with expat's personal international transfers.  Just think it through.  For example, would Thailand want people to bring in less money?  

[aldriglikvid]

6 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

 

I did say that the banks record all foreign deposits into Thailand and those records can be accessed by the Thai RD - because that is true.

 

Again, Thailand does not "record of all foreign deposits into Thailand" and there's absolutely no indication that this will change. Your logic, just because the Thai RD can access certain individual bank transactions as a final resort when under criminal investigation does not equal that Thai monitors all foreign (or domestic) deposits. 

Put differently, all sovereign nations reserve the right of 'final actions' such as expropriate property and assets, surveil phones and sms, withdraw visas, incarcerate people, request bank transactions from banks - and the list goes on. Hopefully we can agree on that these actions rarely occur randomly, not without reason and certainly not against all people. So yes, Thai RD can under a criminal investigation force Bangkok Bank to lift bank secrecy (which is written in law) - but to argue that all transactions are being recorded - which you have many times - is simply not helpful to the forum and extremely a dishonest way to conduct an argument. 
 

 

 

[aldriglikvid]

20 minutes ago, atpeace said:

Would not the Thai Government be informing Foreigners bank transfers would be taxed in a few months from now?  The answer is yes.-yes-yes.  The regulation has nothing to with expat's personal international transfers.  Just think it through.  For example, would Thailand want people to bring in less money?  

It would be a global blockbuster if Thailand would rip up their bank secrecy laws in a rug pull for +15 million foreign accounts, and then putting a random flat tax on all transfers. For all I know, the only one actually believing in this is @TroubleandGrumpy

[atpeace]

11 minutes ago, aldriglikvid said:

It would be a global blockbuster if Thailand would rip up their bank secrecy laws in a rug pull for +15 million foreign accounts, and then putting a random flat tax on all transfers. For all I know, the only one actually believing in this is @TroubleandGrumpy

I agree with all except there is more than one person that believes.  Actually most?  

[retiree]

43 minutes ago, aldriglikvid said:

It would be a global blockbuster if Thailand would rip up their bank secrecy laws in a rug pull ... 

What this guy said. 

[Morch]

It's one of them things which I'm both anxious about, and at the same time, got very little energy to learn. After about 20 years or so living here, I've learned that this feeling usually ends with something that's uncomfortable, but not a deal breaker. Hope it holds.

[Neeranam]

1 hour ago, atpeace said:

Would not the Thai Government be informing Foreigners bank transfers would be taxed in a few months from now?  The answer is yes.-yes-yes.  The regulation has nothing to with expat's personal international transfers.  Just think it through.  For example, would Thailand want people to bring in less money?  

Indeed. This is nothing to do with foreigners. A lot of paranoia here.  

[Neeranam]

1 hour ago, aldriglikvid said:

Again, Thailand does not "record of all foreign deposits into Thailand" and there's absolutely no indication that this will change. Your logic, just because the Thai RD can access certain individual bank transactions as a final resort when under criminal investigation does not equal that Thai monitors all foreign (or domestic) deposits. 

Put differently, all sovereign nations reserve the right of 'final actions' such as expropriate property and assets, surveil phones and sms, withdraw visas, incarcerate people, request bank transactions from banks - and the list goes on. Hopefully we can agree on that these actions rarely occur randomly, not without reason and certainly not against all people. So yes, Thai RD can under a criminal investigation force Bangkok Bank to lift bank secrecy (which is written in law) - but to argue that all transactions are being recorded - which you have many times - is simply not helpful to the forum and extremely a dishonest way to conduct an argument. 
 

 

 

Thanks, nice to have a voice of reason.

[stat]

1 hour ago, aldriglikvid said:

It would be a global blockbuster if Thailand would rip up their bank secrecy laws in a rug pull for +15 million foreign accounts, and then putting a random flat tax on all transfers. For all I know, the only one actually believing in this is @TroubleandGrumpy

Germany did abolish bank secrecy versus the taxman without blinking an eye. Even the swiss abolished it vs the taxman.

[Neeranam]

2 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

There is a lawyer whoi has a Yourtube channel, a few do actually, and he has a 'legal' pratice that is know to have 'integity' and he has made a few viseos about this - he says we have to wait - he has been here a long time (is a USA citizen Lawyer who became a Thai citizen). He thinks they dont 'mean' to nail Expats on retirement or married, but until it is clarified how they will do this change, no one really knows.  

Don't need to be a lawyer to know this, common sense. 

[Neeranam]

2 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

However, if the Thai RD, now or in the future, decides that all that money you remitted into Thailand each year might have been taxable and that you should have done a tax return every year - then we are all copulated. 

They can't and definitely won't do that. 

[Gknrd]

Is this the longest thread ever on Aseannow????

 

[redwood1]

1 hour ago, Gknrd said:

Is this the longest thread ever on Aseannow????

 

By the time the Thais get around to saying any thing about this tax thing months in the future if ever this thread should be hundredes of pages long....

 

The only thing that  for sure is happening here is peoples and investors confidence in Thailand is being destroyed more and more the longer this wild speculation drags out...

 

 

 

 

Edited October 7, 2023 by redwood1

[Conno]

1 hour ago, redwood1 said:

By the time the Thais get around to saying any thing about this tax thing months in the future if ever this thread should be hundredes of pages long....

 

The only thing that  for sure is happening here is peoples and investors confidence in Thailand is being destroyed more and more the longer this wild speculation drags out...

 

 

 

 

To use a meme term that originated in another popular sector, you're are talking about FUD. Humans hate instability, especially when it comes to financial matters. Confidence and trust are everything. FUD erodes that like a cancer.

 

FUD = Fear. Uncertainty. Doubt.   

Edited October 7, 2023 by Conno

[Mike Lister]

7 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Totally Wrong. Obviously you have not read the posts. 180 days or more, in total, living in Thailand Jan 1 to Dec 31 means you are a tax resident of Thailand - no matter where you are from or what type of Visa you have (or dont have). FACT.

 

Take a deep breath and read the post again, slowly.

 

"a resident of Thailand and a resident of Thailand for tax purposes are not the same. Someone here on a long stay visa is not a resident of Thailand, only a Thai citizen or a person who has been granted residency can be a Thai resident".

[still kicking]

5 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Take a deep breath and read the post again, slowly.

 

"a resident of Thailand and a resident of Thailand for tax purposes are not the same. Someone here on a long stay visa is not a resident of Thailand, only a Thai citizen or a person who has been granted residency can be a Thai resident".

Oh oh Neeranam 

[quake]

4 hours ago, Gknrd said:

Is this the longest thread ever on Aseannow????

 

Nah.

But this one is up there, 596 pages.

 

[jerrymahoney]

15 hours ago, retiree said:

Again, here's the method:

 -- were you a Thai tax resident when you earned it?  If so, the income is assessable.

 -- were you a Thai tax resident when you brought it in?  If so, the income may be taxable, depending on DTA.

 -- was either answer "no" ?  It is not taxable.

I like this -- is there any hard-copy reference?

[Mike Lister]

10 hours ago, aldriglikvid said:

Again, Thailand does not "record of all foreign deposits into Thailand" and there's absolutely no indication that this will change. Your logic, just because the Thai RD can access certain individual bank transactions as a final resort when under criminal investigation does not equal that Thai monitors all foreign (or domestic) deposits. 

Put differently, all sovereign nations reserve the right of 'final actions' such as expropriate property and assets, surveil phones and sms, withdraw visas, incarcerate people, request bank transactions from banks - and the list goes on. Hopefully we can agree on that these actions rarely occur randomly, not without reason and certainly not against all people. So yes, Thai RD can under a criminal investigation force Bangkok Bank to lift bank secrecy (which is written in law) - but to argue that all transactions are being recorded - which you have many times - is simply not helpful to the forum and extremely a dishonest way to conduct an argument. 
 

 

 

I disagree, every Central Bank records all foreign currency transactions, inbound and outbound, it's part of their fundamental role to manage the currency of their own country and all their foreign currency reserves. The banks in Thailand acts as agents of the central bank in this regard.

 

On a separate but related point, Thailand officially joined CRS in September 2023, this is the international information sharing on bank account transactions which is not dissimilar to the US FATCA. Any banking secrecy laws that existed previously will have been amended to cater for these things.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Mike Lister

[metisdead]

A post with a link to the Bangkok Post contravening our Community Standards and a reply has been removed.

[Conno]

The link that was deleted above. Opinion piece in that which can not be linked here. Easy to find - New tax rules require clarification - todays date 08 Oct 2023

[Neeranam]

4 hours ago, still kicking said:

Oh oh Neeranam 

The advantages of being a citizen far outweigh having to pay tax on any foreign income.  AFAIK, I'll not have to pay Inheritance tax, for example.

When I get my pension in 9 years from the UK, that will be taxed in the UK anyway. 

[Mike Teavee]

1 hour ago, Neeranam said:

The advantages of being a citizen far outweigh having to pay tax on any foreign income.  AFAIK, I'll not have to pay Inheritance tax, for example.

When I get my pension in 9 years from the UK, that will be taxed in the UK anyway. 

As discussed previously, if that's your only income in the UK it will be taxed at 0% up to £12,570 (currently) & according to Rule 5  https://www.rd.go.th/english/23520.html you won't need to pay any additional tax in Thailand on it.

 

It will be interesting to see if you get a "Frozen" pension (i.e. your pension will stay the same as at the date you claim it & you won't get annual increases), I'm assuming you will (as us Brits who are not Thai Citizens get/can expect) but I don't know if you are/were British and if the same rules apply to you.

 

Edited October 8, 2023 by Mike Teavee

[Neeranam]

45 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

It will be interesting to see if you get a "Frozen" pension (i.e. your pension will stay the same as at the date you claim it & you won't get annual increases), I'm assuming you will (as us Brits who are not Thai Citizens get/can expect) but I don't know if you are/were British and if the same rules apply to you.

I never thought about that but assume it will be frozen. Then again, I could argue that I'm not living abroad. They could argue that I get nothing, as I am a foreigner! 

[Mike Teavee]

1 minute ago, Neeranam said:

I never thought about that but assume it will be frozen. Then again, I could argue that I'm not living abroad. They could argue that I get nothing, as I am a foreigner! 

No, if you're entitled to UK State Pension you'll get it, "Foreigner" or not ???? 

 

If you are (or at least were originally) a Brit, I do think it will be frozen though as they will just look at where you're living...  rather than your "Nationality" 

 

 

[hotandsticky]

20 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

I never thought about that but assume it will be frozen. Then again, I could argue that I'm not living abroad. They could argue that I get nothing, as I am a foreigner! 

It will be determined by your declared domicile at the time of claiming the pension,

[Lorry]

20 hours ago, retiree said:

Again, here's the method:

 -- were you a Thai tax resident when you earned it?  If so, the income is assessable.

 -- were you a Thai tax resident when you brought it in?  If so, the income may be taxable, depending on DTA.

 -- was either answer "no" ?  It is not taxable.

Sounds reasonable and clear. 

This is the answer to a question I posted on p71.

Could you please explain how you come to this conclusion?

[Lorry]

13 hours ago, stat said:

Germany did abolish bank secrecy versus the taxman without blinking an eye. Even the swiss abolished it vs the taxman.

There is no banking secrecy enshrined in law here.  

On the contrary,  today the newspaper that cannot be quoted states the obvious: all international bank transactions will have to be monitored closely. 

 

BTW AMLO uses software to monitor bank transactions and filter out suspicious ones, so much for banking secrecy. They have been doing it for a long time,  I posted a link but it was from the same newspaper and was deleted. 

The RD was planning similar software,  I don't know how far they got.

[retiree]

10 minutes ago, Lorry said:

Sounds reasonable and clear. 

This is the answer to a question I posted on p71.

Could you please explain how you come to this conclusion?

Uhh, ratiocination?   With all due respect, it just seems plain to me that's what the law says.   I'm sure somebody will let me know if I'm wrong.

 

Thinking back now, this is also typical of the way state or federal government regulations lay out their Am I required to file? or Which form should I use? explanations.