Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part I

[scorecard]

29 minutes ago, jaywalker2 said:

As it stands now, this wouldn't affect retirees, who are not registered with the tax office. But it seems the powers that be are determined to screw farangs as much as possible so it's hard to feel confident.

Right now lot's of assumptions flying around, let's wait and see.

[mfd101]

If people bother to check in the OP the list of countries that have a double-taxation agreement with Thailand, they will see that about 99% of all 'Westerners' in Thailand are covered by those treaty-status agreements. Which aren't about to change. So no sweat.

 

But it does raise an interesting question for many of us, a question which those who actually are informed on this might wish to address: Assuming that (as I understand) Thailand's income tax rate is way way lower than that in any 'Western' country, why not use the double-taxation agreement from the other end? ie pay income tax in Thailand and thereby avoid the much higher rate of income tax in your home country.

[Thaindrew]

1 hour ago, jacko45k said:

Well they have failed taxing their own people so foreigners is the obvious target. And we can't vote them out, dispute or protest, so we get the taxation without representation stuffed where the sun don't shine I expect! 

even the locals cannot really vote them out !

[whiteman]

I can see a few big lump sums coming in just b4 the 1st Jan 2024 to beat any tax grab by the Thailand government.

[Thaindrew]

37 minutes ago, jaywalker2 said:

As it stands now, this wouldn't affect retirees, who are not registered with the tax office. But it seems the powers that be are determined to screw farangs as much as possible so it's hard to feel confident.

I suppose the point will be that if you are here over 180 days you will have to register with the tax office .... that can easily be overseen by the "trusted" immigration dept and checked upon visa renewals - this would be very bad for Thailand ultimately. 

[mania]

53 minutes ago, lordgrinz said:

I don't want to live my life worrying about a Plan B, I like stability, clean air/water, well established and enforced rules of law, and I like safety. None of these are obtainable while living in Thailand, I just wish I could get my wife to see that. To me, living in Thailand is like living in Hell, all I want to do is get my family out of here.

Oh I hear you ????

My wife & I left at the end of 2016 as we thought this coup was different than the rest (in hindsight we were right)

We live happily in the USA where my wife has US citizenship along with her Thai citizenship.

 

We sold our Condo in CM but still have our home up north & enjoy 2-3 months a year there most years.

 

We were just musing about moving back & saw this & said hmmm those flexi goal posts look iffy ????

[Thaindrew]

14 minutes ago, phetphet said:

But isn't there a rule that any income brought into Thailand more than 12 months after it was earned is no liable to taxation? Are you saying that is now being changed?

thats seems to be the rule they are re-interpreting so yes any income bought into Thailand is taxable, but hey thats what VAT is, so we'd be taxed twice on expenditure in effect. 

[whiteman]

If you have any money in a Thailand bank you are automatically changed tax on it here, check your bank book and you will see this happening Hence they automatically have your tax ird number.

Edited September 19, 2023 by whiteman

[lordgrinz]

2 minutes ago, mania said:

Oh I hear you ????

My wife & I left at the end of 2016 as we thought this coup was different than the rest (in hindsight we were right)

We live happily in the USA where my wife has US citizenship along with her Thai citizenship.

 

We sold our Condo in CM but still have our home up north & enjoy 2-3 months a year there most years.

 

We were just musing about moving back & saw this & said hmmm those flexi goal posts look iffy ????

I still got to work on her, in fact she signed on another condo, we are up to 4 now (we rent them out), but like we need another?! That's on top of our townhouse and her former parents home back in the countryside. We could sell everything, and head back to the USA, but she hasn't caved in yet.

[BE88]

8 minutes ago, lordgrinz said:

I still got to work on her, in fact she signed on another condo, we are up to 4 now (we rent them out), but like we need another?! That's on top of our townhouse and her former parents home back in the countryside. We could sell everything, and head back to the USA, but she hasn't caved in yet.

With a little patience, she will convince herself when she sees the condo tax increase significantly.

This government will have to find many financial resources for the projects it has planned.

 

[mania]

17 minutes ago, lordgrinz said:

I still got to work on her, in fact she signed on another condo, we are up to 4 now (we rent them out), but like we need another?! That's on top of our townhouse and her former parents home back in the countryside. We could sell everything, and head back to the USA, but she hasn't caved in yet.

Well tell her sometimes trying is good & nothing is set in stone. But if she likes it she can get US citizenship in her third year in the USA. Something you cannot get in Thailand as easily.

 

Also let her know even if she does not do the US citizenship if she stays 5 years in the USA she automatically gets Social Security when she is 62 albeit as a spousal benefit meaning 50% amount of what ever your getting but hey free $$$ right? Not to mention Medicare

 

Of course if she decided to work in the USA she could get even more but up to her.

 

Social Security Benefits for Non-U.S. Citizens Living Abroad

Edited September 19, 2023 by mania

[JackGats]

In the run-up to the election I was nearly called names on this forum for suggesting we had nothing to win in any political change. Rants after rants were posted about "the will of the people". Well, there you are folks! The will of the people. The people need your money after they were promised hand-outs of cash.

[Metapod]

33 minutes ago, mfd101 said:

If people bother to check in the OP the list of countries that have a double-taxation agreement with Thailand, they will see that about 99% of all 'Westerners' in Thailand are covered by those treaty-status agreements. Which aren't about to change. So no sweat.

 

But it does raise an interesting question for many of us, a question which those who actually are informed on this might wish to address: Assuming that (as I understand) Thailand's income tax rate is way way lower than that in any 'Western' country, why not use the double-taxation agreement from the other end? ie pay income tax in Thailand and thereby avoid the much higher rate of income tax in your home country.

DTA doesn't exclude you from filing and paying taxes. You have a double tax residency and that means you will be required to file taxes in both regions. If the taxes owed in one region is less than the other, you will need to pay the difference to the other region. What the DTA agreement does is prevent double taxation of the same income, it doesn't mean you can just pick and choose the region you owe taxes and pay the smaller amount.

 

Keep in mind that Thailand has a progressive tax structure and the higher rates kick in a lot earlier than western countries like the US.

 

This change affects everyone who isn't already filing and paying taxes in Thailand.

 

Edited September 19, 2023 by Metapod

[HauptmannUK]

Interesting news.  I wonder how many Thais actually pay tax on overseas income? I'm sure my wife doesn't...

She is partner in a small hotel/restaurant business in the UK. She spends around six months each year in Thailand and six months in UK (dual citizen) usually in three month blocks (alternating with her partner, a HK lady).

We always bring her money over as cash, in 20's and 50's.  Convert at SuperRich and pay into her various accounts or use to purchase stuff e.g. land.  This is around GBP40-50k per annum.  To my knowledge she has never paid any kind of tax apart from land transfer tax.  She also rents out a couple of condos, but AFAIK its all 'under the radar'. Never heard her even mention any kind of income tax and I've never seen her receive any kind of tax form or tax demand.....

[lordgrinz]

1 minute ago, mania said:

Well tell her sometimes trying is good & nothing is set in stone. But if she likes it she can get US citizenship in her third year in the USA. Something you cannot get in Thailand as easily.

 

Also let her know if she stays 5 years in the USA she automatically gets Social Security when she is 62 albeit as a spousal benefit meaning 50% amount of what ever your getting but hey free $$$ right?

 

Of course if she decided to work in teh USA she could get even more but up to her.

 

Yes, I brought that Social Security item to her attention too, because my daughter and wife would not have access to my SS if I die, because neither have resided in the USA with me long enough. I actually didn't realize that until last year, so it has been on my mind for a while now. She would have no issue getting a job in the USA, she is well educated in the medical field and holds a Ph.D. 

[mania]

1 minute ago, lordgrinz said:

Yes, I brought that Social Security item to her attention too, because my daughter and wife would not have access to my SS if I die, because neither have resided in the USA with me long enough. I actually didn't realize that until last year, so it has been on my mind for a while now. She would have no issue getting a job in the USA, she is well educated in the medical field and holds a Ph.D. 

Yeah & that is a good reason to go for it at least for 5 years. Or even just 3-4 if she went for citizenship which is not hard. Then for sure she would get spousal benefits even if you were alive she would get a 50% check.

Plus the US passport all else aside is a pass to travel anywhere if later she was interested in trips/vacations etc.

Work even without a PHD is plentiful if one wants it in the USA

[Moonlover]

19 minutes ago, whiteman said:

If you have any money in a Thailand bank you are automatically changed tax on it here, check your bank book and you will see this happening Hence they automatically have your tax ird number.

Sorry but your conclusion is wrong. What the banks take from our accounts is called 'withholding tax' which which takes the form of a collective payment to the revenue services. It is not attributed to an individual tax payer anymore than is VAT is when you purchase goods in a shop. The account holders do not acquire a tax IRD number.

 

It has already been said in the article and repeated here on the forum:

 

'Also exempt will be those who have been taxed in a foreign country that has a standing Double Tax Agreement with Thailand'.

 

They could not make it plainer than that, that this has nothing to do with us and will have no impact on the vast majority of the expat community.

[Trippy]

1 hour ago, lordgrinz said:

I don't want to live my life worrying about a Plan B, I like stability, clean air/water, well established and enforced rules of law, and I like safety. None of these are obtainable while living in Thailand, I just wish I could get my wife to see that. To me, living in Thailand is like living in Hell, all I want to do is get my family out of here.

Wow, one man's paradise is another man's hell, I guess.

I love living in Thailand, and hope I never have to leave.

[vibration]

9 hours ago, thaibreaker said:

Thanks for telling us your situation. But may I ask, as a Norwegian myself, why do you choose to pay taxes in Thailand, since you already do pay taxes from your pension in Norway? I assume this is something you have chosen to do, and filled out all the needed forms for that purpose. Most retirees I know from Norway do not go through this, because it's so much hassle doing so, with all the paperwork before getting your refund. And then you are in best case status quo, or probably minus, with taxes and all the expenses you have had.

 

Now, I do know the 183 days rule, but as far as I know, Thai authorities never ask for this pension to be taxed by Thailand. And since you pay full tax in Norway, most Norwegians just let this be.

 

For me personally, the taxes are much higher in Thailand than Norwegian government deduct from my pension. So I just wonder. Why go through it.

 

But kudos to you anyway, you are doing the right thing. And the right thing, is what scares a lot of people in this thread, to start paying Thai taxes for pension income, and go through all the hassle for a refund. Norway do have the same tax double agreement as 60 other countries, but with some small differences.

Thank you for asking this.

 

The sole reason for me doing this is because it helps me financially and is actually in my opinion very easy to do and it is also legal.

 

I only have to print out my bank statements and use a yellow marker pen to mark the International Transfers and then summarise all lf this in a list to be included in my Thai Tax Return.

 

When this is done I get the Thai Tax Office to help me fill out the Tax Return and help me to apply for a Thai Income Tax Paid Certificate and a Certificate of Residence all free.

 

When I receive the above documents I send them to my Norwegian Tax Lawyer Office in Thailand and they update my Norwegian Tax Return and send the above documents together with a letter they have drafted to the Tax Authorities in Norway.

 

The Norwegian Tax Lawyer Office in Thailand can do all of the above to facilitate this however I choose to do as much as possible myself to save money and I only have to pay 5000THB (special agreement and I have used them for many years).

 

Of course before anybody considers doing the above one must check the potenial benefits and base the decision on this.

 

In my situation it has saved me a lot of money over the years and it is legal.

 

 

[HuaHinNew]

Well, I read about this before it was posted and have a document (see my attachment) that has endeavored to translate and summarize the Thai version of the proposal.

 

I don't have time to read every post, but my outlook is every retire here over 180 days in total residency is going to get whacked.

 

I suspect the next step will be the Dept of Revenue will instruct every Thai bank from Jan 1 2024 to place a withholding tax on all OS inbound transfers.

 

It will be then up to each individual to deal with the taxation issues to justify and recover their bank transfer withholding tax, if possible!

 

"Clause 1 : Persons who are residing in Thailand according to Section 41 , paragraph three, of the Revenue Code. who have assessable income due to work duties or activities conducted abroad or because of assets located abroad according to Section 41 , paragraph two of the Revenue Code In the said tax year and has brought that assessable income into Thailand in any tax year That person has a duty to include that assessable income in calculating income tax according to Section 48 of the Revenue Code. In the tax year in which the assessable income was brought into Thailand"

 

Knowing how most government departments in Thailand are a circus, dealing with these people will be like pulling teeth.

 

This is going to justify the government hiring a mass of new employees to deal with all this new taxation BS.

 

Plus, tax accountants will have a windfall, dealing with all the Farangs trying to navigate the mess created.

 

We will all most likely need a tax ID to comply with the proposed legislation. 

 

If those that have 401K or like retirement accounts or savings accounts where tax was already paid in years gone by in their home country, they will be victims.

 

Unless, your country has a tax treaty with Thailand maybe, and a big maybe, you might have a chance to be exempt, but if not, you're screwed IMHO

 

For those from a country with a tax treaty, they will want official documentation from your home country's taxation department that all your OS funds being transferred to Thailand have been fully taxed in your home country. 

 

I fully support them going after money laundering or funds that have been hidden overseas for tax avoidance by individuals or corporations. 

 

But, honest Farangs that have retired here are going to be caught up in the net, 

 

It can only be interpreted as a money grab and extortion by the Thai government against retirees and other honest foreign residents of Thailand. 

Tax Concern.pdf

[lordgrinz]

3 minutes ago, HuaHinNew said:

Well, I read about this before it was posted and have a document (see my attachment) that has endeavored to translate and summarize the Thai version of the proposal.

 

I don't have time to read every post, but my outlook is every retire here over 180 days in total residency is going to get whacked.

 

I suspect the next step will be the Dept of Revenue will instruct every Thai bank from Jan 1 2024 to place a withholding tax on all OS inbound transfers.

 

It will be then up to each individual to deal with the taxation issues to justify and recover their bank transfer withholding tax, if possible!

 

"Clause 1 : Persons who are residing in Thailand according to Section 41 , paragraph three, of the Revenue Code. who have assessable income due to work duties or activities conducted abroad or because of assets located abroad according to Section 41 , paragraph two of the Revenue Code In the said tax year and has brought that assessable income into Thailand in any tax year That person has a duty to include that assessable income in calculating income tax according to Section 48 of the Revenue Code. In the tax year in which the assessable income was brought into Thailand"

 

Knowing how most government departments in Thailand are a circus, dealing with these people will be like pulling teeth.

 

This is going to justify the government hiring a mass of new employees to deal with all this new taxation BS.

 

Plus, tax accountants will have a windfall, dealing with all the Farangs trying to navigate the mess created.

 

We will all most likely need a tax ID to comply with the proposed legislation. 

 

If those that have 401K or like retirement accounts or savings accounts where tax was already paid in years gone by in their home country, they will be victims.

 

Unless, your country has a tax treaty with Thailand maybe, and a big maybe, you might have a chance to be exempt, but if not, you're screwed IMHO

 

For those from a country with a tax treaty, they will want official documentation from your home country's taxation department that all your OS funds being transferred to Thailand have been fully taxed in your home country. 

 

I fully support them going after money laundering or funds that have been hidden overseas for tax avoidance by individuals or corporations. 

 

But, honest Farangs that have retired here are going to be caught up in the net, 

 

It can only be interpreted as a money grab and extortion by the Thai government against retirees and other honest foreign residents of Thailand. 

Tax Concern.pdf 316.67 kB · 0 downloads

Note: Remember to thank the Pheu Thai party for this, brainchild of their new unelected PM. Oh, and all Heil Thaksin!

[cleopatra2]

54 minutes ago, mfd101 said:

If people bother to check in the OP the list of countries that have a double-taxation agreement with Thailand, they will see that about 99% of all 'Westerners' in Thailand are covered by those treaty-status agreements. Which aren't about to change. So no sweat.

 

But it does raise an interesting question for many of us, a question which those who actually are informed on this might wish to address: Assuming that (as I understand) Thailand's income tax rate is way way lower than that in any 'Western' country, why not use the double-taxation agreement from the other end? ie pay income tax in Thailand and thereby avoid the much higher rate of income tax in your home country.

DTT do not work like that.

DTT determine which state has taxing rights of a specific form of income.

If both states have taxing rights on the same income then the provisions in the articles for  elimination of double taxation takes effect . This will specify the method and how such income and tax relief is applied for each state.

[bob smith]

20 minutes ago, Trippy said:

Wow, one man's paradise is another man's hell, I guess.

I love living in Thailand, and hope I never have to leave.

talk about setting the bar low.

 

if you think Thailand is the be all and end all then you need to expand your horizons.

[Confuscious]

On 9/18/2023 at 9:57 AM, connda said:

Eventually someone is going to write, "Does that mean farang's pension income too."

Short answer would probably be "No," at least for those countries with bilateral tax agreements with Thailand.  If you're paying income tax in your home countries, then Thailand has no claim to tax the income twice.

Bilateral tax agreements with Thailand are indeed existing and can be used when Thailand will send you a tax bill.

 

The problem is that a lot of expats, don't pay taxes in their home country neither.

Most expats vanish of the radat of their home country and are not paying taxes anywhere.

I guess that Thailand will ask expats on their next Visa extension to show the proof of tax payments in your home country or in Thailand.
If you did not pay your taxes in your home country, then your next Visa extension will not be validated.

[salavan]

UK/THAILAND DOUBLE TAXATION CONVENTION 
SIGNED 18 FEBRUARY

[homeseeker]

If a person send money from overseas to Thailand to a Western Union office here which pay out in cash then surely the Revenue Dept are not advised about this?

[Geir Rasch]

10 hours ago, thaibreaker said:

Now, I do know the 183 days rule, but as far as I know, Thai authorities never ask for this pension to be taxed by Thailand. And since you pay full tax in Norway, most Norwegians just let this be.

For me personally, the taxes are much higher in Thailand than Norwegian government deduct from my pension. So I just wonder. Why go through it.

First, there is no 183 days rule. If you stay in Thailand 180 days during a calendar year, you are a tax resident of Thailand. 
You and I must live in different realyties because most norwegians I know want to pay tax to Thailand because taxes are much lower in Thailand. I’m talking about pensions. You wil save 60K bath to 200K bath a year, depending of your pension, by paying tax to Thailand. 
It is quite straight forward to pay tax to Thailand and reclaim tax back from Norway, so I do not see the hustle about this.
For me, average tax percent to Norway would be 25%. In Thailand it is below 10% on the pension I transfer to Thailand.

[Tony M]

Well, let's hope that the UK Govt, and all other Govts, start reciprical arrangements for Thai funds, salaries, incomes and personal savings going into the UK and other countries. What's good for the goose.........................

[John Drake]

Which ministry and which cabinet member is responsible for this?

[sirineou]

2 minutes ago, Tony M said:

Well, let's hope that the UK Govt, and all other Govts, start reciprical arrangements for Thai funds, salaries, incomes and personal savings going into the UK and other countries. What's good for the goose.........................

Thailand and the UK have a reciprocal tax treaty ,

Below is a list of all the countries Thailand has a reciprocal tax treaty.