Calls for clarification of new Tax regime which appears to target expat foreign income sources

[Schuimpge]

5 hours ago, pluto_manibo said:

The article is a bit misleading and xenophobic. The law is not only aimed at foreigners, all the Thai people who work abroad, invest abroad and want to remit funds, trying to survive in this difficult economic climate are the main targets.

 

To end all confusion, the correct interpretation is: "The law is aimed at all Thai tax-residents with overseas funds/income/earnings". (A Thai tax-resident is anyone residing in Thailand for more than 180 days per 1 calendar year.) You could be Santa from the North-Pole, you're a tax resident if you stay here for more than 180 days in one year...

[paddypower]

2 hours ago, thesetat said:

seems like they want a piece of the 60,000 baht required to be sent to Thailand monthly from abroad for. the retirement visa as well.... or 40,000 monthly for those with a marriage visa. Guaranteed increase in income for the government and we really can do nothing about it if wanting to stay in Thailand. 

well, if that is their thinking - they are pretty short on brain power. I have 800k in the bank and pay 10%. Ditto for my Thai source dividend and interest income. Some days, I really do want to write to the Bangkok Postbag and say, Mr. PM, you're an idiot, krub.

[JimboB4]

36 minutes ago, redwood1 said:

Sir the answer is........f3f65yyt65rrgf...........Well thats about of good of a answer as your going to get right now from Thai officals....

 

Whats really funny is the one year visas all say NON-IMMIGRANT VISA............Or your not a resident of Thailand...lol    The tax boys must just hate this..

Ok that’s what I thought so it doesn’t effect non-residents or rather people on a non-immigrant visa? 

[Sydebolle]

What a statement of the Thai primus-inter-pares "income inequality". 

It has nothing to do with income inequality (which exists within Thailand on a massive scale, no doubt) but the retirees spending their last years in Thailand have nothing to do with income inequality. They worked all their lives between 42 and 45 hours weekly, for 45 years and only spent money they had. 

Thailand is top ranking on "spending as if there is no tomorrow" and working, well, let's not go there as far as quite a high percentage of the local population is concerned. 

[flexomike]

1 hour ago, Darren8888 said:

Nice work. So this meant having a small income of just $80k a year, you only be paying about $3.5k tax in the US. In Thailand, you pay $17k tax. That is 5 times larger. Thailand tax is too expensive

you are comparing dollars to baht, no way would you be paying 17,000 dollars tax in Thailand

 

[DrAwesomee]

Thaksin and his foreigner hating policies will become more and more apparent with times, he has already taken control from the background.

srettha may just be a puppet and thaksin the real puppet master. 

[Iamloki]

6 hours ago, Lee4Life said:

If Thailand chooses to tax your income then the U.S. can't?

Currently the US and Thailand has a tax treaty. Among other things, no taxation of retirement income and no double taxation. The problem with treaties, and as the article alluded to, is that they are subject expiration and renegotiation... So as of today, for the US at least, we are protected by treaty... tomorrow, who knows?

[ChasingTheSun]

Still zero clarification about the tax treatment of people living with retirement visas or other long term non-working visas.

 

in addition, how about clarity on the treatment of bringing in pre-existing capital, not income/interest/dividends/cap gains earned outside thailand while living in thailand?

 

 

 

Edited September 26, 2023 by ChasingTheSun

[connda]

9 hours ago, webfact said:

They fear this could lead to all incomes earned by foreign residents in the kingdom being subject to tax.

If double-taxed, I'd immediately be in a letter-writing campaign with my Congressional and Senate representative to review the US-Thai Tax Treaty and to call for sanctions on Thailand and Thais living in the US as Quid Pro Quo if Thailand stops honoring the existing Tax Treaty. 

Oh, and I'd also stop bringing money into the country other then the minimums needed to live here until the US and Thailand iron out the reasons as to why Thailand chooses not to honor the Tax Treaty. 

[lordgrinz]

Just now, ChasingTheSun said:

Still zero clarification about people on retirement type visas LT non-working visas.

 

in addition, how about clarity on the treatment of bringing in existing wealth/capital, not the income or interest or dividends cap gains earned outside thailand while living in thailand?

 

The current PM wants more foreign investment, but makes this wild unthought out proclamation that would stifle that foreign investment, it boggles the mind....unless he is just another village idiot.

[DrPhibes]

3 hours ago, shortstop2 said:

Here's a link to the USA-Thailand tax treaty.  

 

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-trty/thailand.pdf

 

Article 20 deals with pension and Social Security payments. 

Article 10, 11, 12, 13, and 15 are an interesting read.  Yes, retirement plans and Social Security are sheltered from Thai taxes, but other US derived income has the possibility of being taxed at both ends.  Anyway, any tax paid to Thailand would go on form 1116 Foreign Tax Credit where there is a very high probability you will get all that Thai tax applied to your US tax obligation. 

[pluto_manibo]

28 minutes ago, flexomike said:

you are comparing dollars to baht, no way would you be paying 17,000 dollars tax in Thailand

 

Without allowances calculated;

[email protected] baht= Baht 2,892,800

 

First Million( 5% for 150k-300k, 10% for 300k-500k, 15% for 500k-750k, 20% for 750k-1M)= Baht 115k

Second Million(25% for 1M-2M)                                                                                                = Baht 250k

892,000(30% for 2M-4M)                                                                                                          = Baht 267,600

 

                                                                                                                           Tax to be paid= Baht 632,0000

 

Baht 632,[email protected]/$= $17,494

Edited September 26, 2023 by pluto_manibo

[connda]

2 minutes ago, lordgrinz said:

The current PM wants more foreign investment, but makes this wild unthought out proclamation that would stifle that foreign investment, it boggles the mind....unless he is just another village idiot.

Exactly.  How does he plan to attract foreign investors by hammering all foreigners with a tax on income in their home country?  This moron doesn't understand the benefit of foreign funds flowing into his country.
The fool is about to throw ice-water on both foreign investment as well as foreign funds flowing into Thailand. 
And again - we're about to find out if the Tax Treaties between Thailand and G20 countries are going to be honored or not. 

[connda]

12 minutes ago, DrPhibes said:

Article 10, 11, 12, 13, and 15 are an interesting read.  Yes, retirement plans and Social Security are sheltered from Thai taxes, but other US derived income has the possibility of being taxed at both ends.  Anyway, any tax paid to Thailand would go on form 1116 Foreign Tax Credit where there is a very high probability you will get all that Thai tax applied to your US tax obligation. 

As I have no other income sources from the US then Social Security and an approve pension, then Article 20 applies to me.  Any effort by Thailand to derive tax income from my SS and pension plans would be in direct violation of the existing tax treaty.  Thanks for the PDF.  I'll save that in my tax folder for future reference in 2024.

ARTICLE 20
Pensions and Social Security Payments
1. Subject to the provisions of paragraph 2 of Article 21 (Government Service), pensions and other similar remuneration paid to a resident of a Contracting State in consideration of past employment shall
be taxable only in that State.
2. Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraph 1, social security benefits and other similar public pensions paid by a Contracting State to a resident of the other Contracting State or a citizen of the United States shall be taxable only in the first-mentioned State.

Edited September 26, 2023 by connda

[connda]

11 minutes ago, pluto_manibo said:

Without allowances calculated;

[email protected] baht= Baht 2,892,800

 

First Million( 5% for 150k-300k, 10% for 300k-500k, 15% for 500k-750k, 20% for 750k-1M)= Baht 115k

Second Million(25% for 1M-2M)                                                                                                = Baht 250k

892,000(30% for 2M-4M)                                                                                                          = Baht 267,600

 

                                                                                                                           Tax to be paid= Baht 632,0000

 

Baht 632,[email protected]= $17,494

Which if enforced would cause the exodus of retired expats for sure.

[Celsius]

10 hours ago, webfact said:

It comes after the previous government had launched long-term visa regimes highlighting the zero tax imposed by the Thai government on income not generated in Thailand

 

This sentence is a bit worrying.

 

Even in canada as a non resident I don't get taxed on income that is earned outside canada even if it is going straight into my canadian account.

 

People here love to talk about tax treaties but keep forgetting they are dealing with a third world country. Otherwise if taxes here were anything but fair then how come you still have to pay tax in Thailand on your investment losses?

[lordgrinz]

Now the long process of reading up on any issue repatriating assets back to the USA. Seriously thinking about moving the family back home, just glad I didn't sell our home in the USA already, that was the plan before. 

[Ben Zioner]

4 hours ago, Walker88 said:

The US is not going to supply Thailand with capital gains data, TBill income, dividends, etc.

Wouldn't be so surprising since he likes to "Grab ’em by the p...y"

[Happy happy]

Just a thought:

If a long stayer foreigner in Thailand has money sent from overseas to a Thai bank account here, the receiving bank cannot deduct or withhold any "tax" from such an account if that Thai account is covered by a double taxation agreement.

Would need a new law to do that which is not proposed and would need the Thai Govn  to repeal the double taxation agreement first.

For those who hold 800k in accounts here for Visa purposes that is subject to a withholding tax only on the interest which arises here in Thailand and can be reclaimed.

 

Edited September 26, 2023 by Happy happy

[freeworld]

2 hours ago, JimboB4 said:

Ok that’s what I thought so it doesn’t effect non-residents or rather people on a non-immigrant visa? 

Not true, the visa is with immigration, nothing to do with tax residence.

 

Tax residence have their own tax residency rules, they have a 180 day rule in Thailand, less in other countries. If you are over 180 days in a tax year you are tax resident in thailand and subject to Thai tax laws for income accrued in or remitted to Thailand, according to the tax department.

Edited September 26, 2023 by freeworld

[Kalasin Jo]

7 hours ago, Nabbiex said:

Out of curiosity,

if we, expats, may be taxed, then will we be entitled to receive any Thai benefits such as Thai state pension, Thai personal tax income, family benefits, disability allowance, and so forth?

Who knows at this point? I very much doubt it. The Thai hand taketh from foreigners  but rarely giveth.

And you left out eligibility for the 30 baht Thai healthcare system.

 

All this would require much more than the way it is being done, which is equivalent to UK ministers making laws under existing statutory instruments that require no parliamentary scrutiny or debate.

[pedro01]

10 hours ago, smedly said:

it was stated that citizens of countries with a tax agreement would not be not be involved, my income (UK) is already taxed in the UK, my earnings over the years was already taxed, can't speak for everyone of course - some might be laundering money here which would never hit a bank anyway - good luck taxing that

 

perhaps concentrating on earners in Thailand Thai and foreign who have incomes here would be a better approach

As a non-resident, you are not required to pay taxes on earnings in the UK. That means anything you get paid in the UK is not taxable. You shouldn't be paying tax on your pension.

[Sig]

10 hours ago, Captain Monday said:

I do not care who is in the govt at this Point I would prefer Thailand get 100 percent of my income taxes instead of the US.

 

The failed state that confiscates a huge chunk of my wages automatically at the source, wasting it on who knows what.

Definitely... because we know Thailand would be sure to steward your taxes better and not a baht would go to waste.

[freeworld]

7 hours ago, Nabbiex said:

Out of curiosity,

if we, expats, may be taxed, then will we be entitled to receive any Thai benefits such as Thai state pension, Thai personal tax income, family benefits, disability allowance, and so forth?

No. You will be entitled to the applicable allwances to deduct from your tax bill if any.

Edited September 26, 2023 by freeworld

[placnx]

1 hour ago, DrPhibes said:

Article 10, 11, 12, 13, and 15 are an interesting read.  Yes, retirement plans and Social Security are sheltered from Thai taxes, but other US derived income has the possibility of being taxed at both ends.  Anyway, any tax paid to Thailand would go on form 1116 Foreign Tax Credit where there is a very high probability you will get all that Thai tax applied to your US tax obligation. 

You have to have sufficient foreign income on Form 1116, unless the treaty allows an amount of US income to be classed as foreign income equal to the gross income reported on the Thai tax declaration. To me it's not clear whether this exception is allowed in the Thai-Us treaty. It is allowed in other US tax treaties. 

[Thaindrew]

3 hours ago, JimboB4 said:

“On September 15th, the Revenue Department in Thailand issued a clarification stating that from the 1st of January 2024, it planned to tax foreign income on all individuals in the kingdom who have been resident in the country for over 180 days.” Ok so sounds like it actually means permanent foreign residents but double speak to scare readers? Am I right about that? That’s about the norm when reading TVF. This is only for those foreigners already paying taxes correct? If you don’t currently file income tax in Thailand this shouldn’t affect you correct? 

it doesn't affect you if you here less than 180 days, if over 180 days it could affect you depending on how / if they implement it

[robertson468]

7 hours ago, jacko45k said:

Inclined to say shhhh. They might just forget all about the idea if we don't keep banging on about it. 

I disagree!  What we all need to do is to get our individual Consulates to clarify Thailand's intent on taxing overseas income for Foreignors.  Sadly, this announcement is typical of the way Thailand operates.  Make the announcement without any details having been worked out and any detailed clarification so that people who are affected can both study the change and take any action they consider is appropriate.  It would appear that some are considering leaving if this becomes law, which is understandable.

[Thaindrew]

3 hours ago, redwood1 said:

Sir the answer is........f3f65yyt65rrgf...........Well thats about of good of a answer as your going to get right now from Thai officals....

 

Whats really funny is the one year visas all say NON-IMMIGRANT VISA............Or your not a resident of Thailand...lol    The tax boys must just hate this..

big difference between resident and tax resident, you can be a tax resident without being a resident unfortunately

[Thaindrew]

1 hour ago, ChasingTheSun said:

Still zero clarification about the tax treatment of people living with retirement visas or other long term non-working visas.

 

in addition, how about clarity on the treatment of bringing in pre-existing capital, not income/interest/dividends/cap gains earned outside thailand while living in thailand?

 

 

 

clarity is the enemy of backhanders ....

[sathornlover]

6 hours ago, Tom H said:

or you transfer 10M Baht in 2023 to avoid tax for the next 10y?

 

????Ony for the rich (non tax payers) of course

At first glance it makes sense, but I would be a bit hesitant with this idea in a country where tax laws have a completely different effect through a reinterpretation of a subordinate authority and are just as likely to be applied arbitrarily in the individual tax offices and without further “clarifications”... I don't need to transfer any money for the next 3 years, after that we'll go back anyway and probably only spend the winter in Thailand, then we could transfer "diligently" as non-tax residents, but I don't think much of the idea in the uncertain situation either. Especially when a country tries to solve its obvious problems in such a drastic way primarily at the expense of minorities, we now think it might be better to leave Thailand much sooner than originally planned …