Calls for clarification of new Tax regime which appears to target expat foreign income sources

[freeworld]

6 hours ago, jerrymahoney said:

65,000 x 12 = 780,000

780000 minus all the allowances and deductions =taxable income.

 

Then 150000 is exempt and the remaining is subject to tax % of each of the marginal tax brackets in which it falls.

[Misty]

4 hours ago, redwood1 said:

If a Thai retired to America.....Did not work, no investments in the USA, did not own a house and only lived off savings.....They would not pay 1 penny in taxes in the USA besides sales tax...

If a Thai retired to America, they almost certainly would be a US tax resident, and also a tax resident in an individual state. They may owe US and especially state income tax on income generated by their global assets.

 

Unless they only have cash stuffed in a mattress they will be receiving interest, dividends, capital gains - all taxable.  In some cases they may also have to pay income tax to an individual city.

 

And if they purchase a property (as many do) they will also owe property tax.

[jerrymahoney]

So has anybody with a lot more knowledge and patience than I do looked at this form especially as applies to US or other country treaty-exempt social security schemes ?

 

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/english_form/030265PIT90.pdf

 

[proton]

Completely irresponsible and incompetent to announce this tax measure without giving the details of who it will affect and how at the same time. 

[freeworld]

 

18 minutes ago, jerrymahoney said:

So has anybody with a lot more knowledge and patience than I do looked at this form especially as applies to US or other country treaty-exempt social security schemes ?

 

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/english_form/030265PIT90.pdf

 

Read the DTA. It does not take long to read the parts specific to income.

[jaideedave]

8 hours ago, Irrumator said:

What about residents from a country in which their income is low enough that they  fall into the tax exempt band?

So does that mean they will also be tax exempt here? 

Actually I find myself in that category.Through certain provisions in the Cdn tax code my pensions are tax exempt. I pay zero IT on my retired income.My question is will the Thai RD respect that.I have the printed document in front of me.Food for thought.

[jerrymahoney]

11 minutes ago, freeworld said:

 

Read the DTA. It does not take long to read the parts specific to income.

I have read Article 20 of the DTA. So if 100% of the money I transfer to Thailand comes from Social Security, which is exempt from Thai tax, how do I report that on the PND 90 form?

 

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/english_form/030265PIT90.pdf

 

[retiree]

5 hours ago, redwood1 said:

If a Thai retired to America.....Did not work, no investments in the USA, did not own a house and only lived off savings.....They would not pay 1 penny in taxes in the USA besides sales tax...

If an American retired to Thailand ... Did not work, no investments in Thailand, did not own a house and only lived off savings .... they would pay less in VAT than folks in 88 US cities pay in sales tax.   

 

And no, this isn't a high California taxes thing -- there are plenty of Texas / red state cities on the list.

 

https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/state/sales-tax-rates-by-city-2021/

(showing place -- state -- city -- total sales tax)

Tacoma, WA	6.500%	3.800%	10.300%	1
Chicago, IL	6.250%	4.000%	10.250%	2
Fremont, CA	6.000%	4.250%	10.250%	2

Long Beach, CA	6.000%	4.250%	10.250%	2
Oakland, CA	6.000%	4.250%	10.250%	2
Seattle, WA	6.500%	3.750%	10.250%	2
Birmingham, AL	4.000%	6.000%	10.000%	7
Baton Rouge, LA	4.450%	5.500%	9.950%	8
Memphis, TN	7.000%	2.750%	9.750%	9
St. Louis, MO	4.225%	5.454%	9.679%	10

...  (71 more rows) 

Jacksonville, FL	6.000%	1.500%	7.500%	82
Wichita, KS	6.500%	1.000%	7.500%	82
Charlotte, NC	4.750%	2.500%	7.250%	85
Lincoln, NE	5.500%	1.750%	7.250%	85
Raleigh, NC	4.750%	2.500%	7.250%	85
Toledo, OH	5.750%	1.500%	7.250%	85

[Puccini]

3 hours ago, freeworld said:

Ask a tax accountant...

Ask three tax accountants and you get five different opinions.

[Puccini]

4 hours ago, freeworld said:

...Tax exempt in australia is Australia's rules. You bring that money to Thailand and are tax resident in thailand it is Thailand tax rules...

It is understandable that some people may think that what we call a Double Taxation Agreement is meant to ensure or allow double taxation. However, "Double Taxation Agreement" is shorthand for what, in the example of the DTA with Australia, is officially called "AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE KINGDOM OF THAILAND AND AUSTRALIA FOR THE AVOIDANCE OF DOUBLE TAXATION AND THE PREVENTION OF FISCAL EVASION WITH RESPECT TO TAXES ON INCOME"

 

Edited September 29, 2023 by Puccini

[freeworld]

2 hours ago, jerrymahoney said:

I have read Article 20 of the DTA. So if 100% of the money I transfer to Thailand comes from Social Security, which is exempt from Thai tax, how do I report that on the PND 90 form?

 

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/english_form/030265PIT90.pdf

 

If it is income exempt specified in the DTA then why do you need to fill in and declare it at all in a PND90?

Edited September 29, 2023 by freeworld

[freeworld]

1 hour ago, Puccini said:

Ask three tax accountants and you get five different opinions.

You have to employ one that really knows and is qualified in tax law, the trouble is they are expensive.

Edited September 29, 2023 by freeworld

[jerrymahoney]

7 hours ago, freeworld said:

If it is income exempt specified in the DTA then why do you need to fill in and declare it at all in a PND90?

Thanks. I hope it turns out you are right.

[jacko45k]

13 hours ago, proton said:

Completely irresponsible and incompetent to announce this tax measure without giving the details of who it will affect and how at the same time. 

Just a way of testing the waters, getting feedback...... not unusual here. 

[gearbox]

11 hours ago, Puccini said:

It is understandable that some people may think that what we call a Double Taxation Agreement is meant to ensure or allow double taxation. However, "Double Taxation Agreement" is shorthand for what, in the example of the DTA with Australia, is officially called "AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE KINGDOM OF THAILAND AND AUSTRALIA FOR THE AVOIDANCE OF DOUBLE TAXATION AND THE PREVENTION OF FISCAL EVASION WITH RESPECT TO TAXES ON INCOME"

 

Murky waters...I've read somewhere today at some Oz web site that in case of DTA if you are not resident in Oz for tax purposes, then you get taxed by the country of residence, which may be Thailand. Sounds fairly logical.

 

Too many contradictory docos.

[gearbox]

11 hours ago, Puccini said:

It is understandable that some people may think that what we call a Double Taxation Agreement is meant to ensure or allow double taxation. However, "Double Taxation Agreement" is shorthand for what, in the example of the DTA with Australia, is officially called "AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE KINGDOM OF THAILAND AND AUSTRALIA FOR THE AVOIDANCE OF DOUBLE TAXATION AND THE PREVENTION OF FISCAL EVASION WITH RESPECT TO TAXES ON INCOME"

 

That depends on many things. Some types of income are only taxed in the country of payment, for other types one gets credit.

From the above document:

 

"Subject to the provisions of Article 19, pensions and annuities paid to a resident of  
one of the Contracting States shall be taxable only in that State."

 

On the surface it looks like the Oz pensions are exempted, but note the word "resident", many people choose to be non resident of Oz wrt tax.

 

For dividends and interests there is no such exclusion, if tax is levied in Oz it can be used as a tax credit in the other state, and any tax shortfall after the credit is applied should be paid.

[roietfortress]

On 9/26/2023 at 4:18 PM, Ben Zioner said:

There would  be no problem for foreign banks to submit lists of cash withdrawals made in any given country. They could provide personal details such as Names D.O.B, address, etc. I my case i know that they wouldn't have my passport number. I would say that "forgetting" cash withdrawals and credit card bills on foreign banks may work for a while, but they will get their systems working at some stage and then the might track us back up to January 1, 2024. But the best thing to do is probably to fly the Singapore once or twice a year and get all the cash you can. My UBS cards have pretty high limits. Yet I shouldn't forget that the USD 20000 limit is likely to change just as well as the rules on foreign remittance.

when did the cash limit double? i thought you had to claim $10k USD or over in cash.

 

flying out of country to use an ATM is extreme. cash withdrawals aren't income. the income is already in. that would be double taxation. they don't charge Thais for ATM winthdrawals. 

 

the big problem is if you use the income method for your long term visa. i think we'll just park the money in there and not move it. then we're only liable for interest, which would be too low to tax. unless you have 10m baht+ in a Thai bank. that would just be crazy.

 

this whole thing stinks of someone who's butthurt about farangs.

 

#

 

Edited September 30, 2023 by roietfortress
typo its early

[Dogmatix]

19 hours ago, jerrymahoney said:

So has anybody with a lot more knowledge and patience than I do looked at this form especially as applies to US or other country treaty-exempt social security schemes ?

 

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/english_form/030265PIT90.pdf

 

That is a translation for guidance only of the standard PNG 90 tax return form you have to fill in, if you have any income that is not income from employment in Thailand with tax withheld by the employer, in which case you use PNG 91.  There is nowhere on this form to apply for foreign tax credits.  The RD does have a system for doing this but I have no idea how it works. I guess you have to go along to the RD in person.  You are not allowed to use the English translation form to file your taxes, as it is for guidance only.  I advise caution is using it too, since I have found instances where the Thai version had been revised with new items added that were omitted from the translation which also made the numeration wrong.  Also the guidance in English is sometimes incomplete. It is impossible to fie using the online system without a good knowledge of Thai because messages keep popping in tiny Thai letters. The RD likes to make it look as if everything is bilingual for the convenience of foreigners but that is not quite the case. 

[jerrymahoney]

1 hour ago, roietfortress said:

the big problem is if you use the income method for your long term visa.

From what others have said on here, if you get 65K+ baht every month from US Social Security, according to Article 20.2 of the US-Thai DTA, that should not be a problem . Yes?

Edited September 30, 2023 by jerrymahoney

[retiree]

18 minutes ago, jerrymahoney said:

according to Article 20.2 of the US-Thai DTA

Yes.  Y'all want to get the Technical Explanation, which is actually somewhat less technical:

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-trty/thaitech.pdf 

Article 20 begins on page 63.  This quote is from page 64. 

 

Article 20

Pensions and Social Security Payments ... 

 

Paragraph 2
The treatment of social security benefits is dealt with in paragraph 2.

 

This paragraph provides that,  notwithstanding the provision of paragraph 1 under which private pensions are taxable exclusively in the State of residence of the beneficial owner, payments made by one of the Contracting States as a social security benefit or similar public pension to a resident of the other Contracting State or to a citizen of the United States will be taxable only in the Contracting State making the payment.

 

This paragraph applies to social security beneficiaries whether they have contributed to the system as private sector or government employees. 

The phrase "similar public pension" is intended to include United States tier 1 Railroad Retirement benefits. The reference to U.S. citizens is necessary to insure that a social security payment by Thailand to a U.S. citizen not resident in the United States will not be taxed by the United States.

[roietfortress]

why is any country taxing retirement pensions or social security? that's the real issue.

 

#

[retiree]

1 hour ago, roietfortress said:

why is any country taxing retirement pensions or social security? that's the real issue.

The US taxes a fraction of the Social Security benefit on a slowly rising basis if you have enough additional income, see below.   SS is a pay-as-you-go system intended to help the lowest-income folks in society, including people who become not only old, but also disabled, orphaned, and/or widowe(re)d.  It is not a personal retirement investment scheme.  

https://www.annuityadvantage.com/calculator/social-security-taxable-benefits-calculator/

Edited September 30, 2023 by retiree

[Isaan sailor]

1 hour ago, roietfortress said:

why is any country taxing retirement pensions or social security? that's the real issue.

 

#

Amazingly, in the US, we have eleven states that tax Social Security income.

[jerrymahoney]

Strictly as a hypothetical: 

 

On another topic there was a post: If they start taxing transfers in the 65ks will be the first hit, meant to be income

 

Similar posts in other topics. Well presuming that any of this is ever enacted, I don't know if that will be the case. Most simply, someone on retirement extension via 65k or 40K monthly transfer method (retirement or marriage) could bring their US Social Security annual statement to show sufficient monthly distributions from SS and off-limits via DTA.

 

If someone has 800K or 400K in the bank for extension, the IMM Officer might ask: That's nice. What and where is the money that you actually  live on?

Edited September 30, 2023 by jerrymahoney

[Schuimpge]

On 9/30/2023 at 3:10 PM, Isaan sailor said:

Amazingly, in the US, we have eleven states that tax Social Security income.

Check the Dutch taxes: They'll tax your savings based on an ASSUMED ROI! Yes, you read that correct. They assume you could make 5% on your savings and that's your tax-rate on it. 

[Schuimpge]

Hopefully it will go the same way as the Crypto-Tax 2yrs ago.

Memo out from Revenue Department: Starting 2022, everyone need to report their income from Crypto trading and pay 15% withholding tax on that.

Crypto Exchanges: Mr. Revenue, how do you want our customers to calculate the income? 
Revenue Department: Errmm, we don't know. They just report income to us.

Crypto Exchanges: Here's a list of possible ways to calculate, and by the way, by law we are not required to provide you any info on our customer's trades, just to note..

Revenue Department: Hmmmm that's going to be very difficult..we'll get back to you.

Revenue Department: Ok, we've decided to delay the tax for 2 years. In January 2024 everyone has to report their crypto-income in their Personal Income Tax.

 

But, there's still no clear directions on how to calculate that income.