Ethnicity of People in Thailand

[Danderman123]

The following is all based on my understanding of the early history of Indochina, so please feel free to correct me.

 

Starting 70,000 years ago (more or less), the first Homo Sapiens walked out of Africa, passing through the Middle East, Iran, India, and eventually into Thailand and beyond. This particular migration ended up in Australia and Northern China, although it's possible that a short cut through Myanmar was taken to reach China.

 

During the trek through the Middle East there was some funny business with Neanderthals, so that descendants of these people have a small amount of Neanderthal DNA.

 

However, whoever remained in Thailand from this initial migration were replaced or assimilated by people coming from the north (China). These recent arrivals settled through Indochina. In Thailand, they are known as Mon people, in Cambodia they are Khmer. In all cases, they carry DNA from Denisovans who were assimilated by Homo Sapiens in the last 70,000 years. So, East Asians have genetic contributions from both Neanderthals and Denisovans.

 

About 1500 years ago, there was a Hindu kingdom throughout Indochina. So what is now Thailand was then India. This had a big impact on demographics in current Thailand.

 

 

In the last 1,000 years or so, Mon people in Indochina have been absorbed by later migrants - in Myanmar, a migration from Tibet carried what are now the Burmese into Myanmar (also some ethnic Tai people from China accompanied a Mongol invasion of Myanmar).

 

 

In Thailand and Laos, Tai people migrated from southern China and assimilated the Mon people. The last major area to be wrested from the Mon people was Chonburi.

 

There was a wave of migration from what is now Malaysia into southern Thailand. 

 

Bottom line, in Thailand, there is a big genetic contribution from India, and from East Asians (Mon and Thai peoples). So, Thai people may look East Asian, or South Asian.

 

 

[Foxx]

One of the fallacies here is that religion and ethnicity are closely associated.  Hinduism is not the sole preserve of Indian people, and you can't conclude "there is a big genetic contribution from India".  It's a bit like saying that Europeans are descended from Semitic peoples because they are Christian and Jesus was a Semite.

[2baht]

Are we (farang) not all ethnic minorities in Thailand! ????

[Danderman123]

10 minutes ago, Foxx said:

One of the fallacies here is that religion and ethnicity are closely associated.  Hinduism is not the sole preserve of Indian people, and you can't conclude "there is a big genetic contribution from India".  It's a bit like saying that Europeans are descended from Semitic peoples because they are Christian and Jesus was a Semite.

I am suggesting that Thailand was part of India for an extended period. This resulted in Hinduism being fused with Thai Buddhism, but also a genetic contribution by migrants from the subcontinent.

 

 

[ignore it]

Yep,

And your point is?

[Danderman123]

16 minutes ago, ignore it said:

Yep,

And your point is?

I am just talking about the various ethnic groups that make up Thailand today. Ironically, one of the smaller influences was the migration of Thai people from China. 

 

Mon people made up the main component of the population of most of Indochina, with an overlay of Indian.

 

There is an interesting parallel with the English, where the initial pre-Celtic population is the main genetic component. The Anglo-Saxons had a small genetic contribution,  much as the Thais from China in Thailand.

[FruitPudding]

I think you are talking about race not ethnicity.

[hidbehindthesofa]

Most Thai people seem to believe that Thailand has always been Thailand and Thai people have always existed.

 

Any descendance or evolution from monkeys, gorillas,  orangutangs or any other species or any transition from other races or countries is hotly denied.

[Danderman123]

55 minutes ago, hidbehindthesofa said:

Most Thai people seem to believe that Thailand has always been Thailand and Thai people have always existed.

 

Any descendance or evolution from monkeys, gorillas,  orangutangs or any other species or any transition from other races or countries is hotly denied.

This isn't a firmly held position, they don't know, and they don't care about their history before the current dynasty.

[Danderman123]

2 hours ago, FruitPudding said:

I think you are talking about race not ethnicity.

No such thing as race.

 

The pictured people are Hebrews living in Africa. They are genetically closer to the ancient Hebrews than most Israelis today.

Edited September 28, 2023 by Danderman123

[FruitPudding]

9 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

No such thing as race.

 

The pictured people are Hebrews living in Africa. They are genetically closer to the ancient Hebrews than most Israelis today.

Well, in the OP it talks of genetics which has nothing to do with ethnicity.

 

Ethnicity is cultural norms, behaviors, and beliefs.

 

It has nothing to do with our DNA, genetics, appearance, or any other physical characteristics 

[Danderman123]

5 minutes ago, FruitPudding said:

Well, in the OP it talks of genetics which has nothing to do with ethnicity.

 

Ethnicity is cultural norms, behaviors, and beliefs.

 

It has nothing to do with our DNA, genetics, appearance, or any other physical characteristics 

Okay, we'll call it genetic clusters or some such.

[FruitPudding]

23 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

Okay, we'll call it genetic clusters or some such.

Isn't that the concept of race?

[Tropposurfer]

There is only one race of humans ... the 'human race'. We are ALL descended from a few black ancestors who began to walk out of Africa hundreds of thousands of hears ago. 

 

 

[Danderman123]

3 hours ago, FruitPudding said:

Isn't that the concept of race?

Nope.

 

There is no such thing as "race". 

 

If you disagree, what race are Thai?

[Victor Laszlo]

Pity, there were no phone cameras back then or we'd know for sure.

Edited September 28, 2023 by Victor Laszlo

[Danderman123]

Just now, Victor Laszlo said:

Pity there were no phone cameras then or we'd know for sure.

Know what for sure?

[Danderman123]

Oops, I forgot to mention the Khmen speaking people in Surin and Buriram. There's a non-trivial number of them.

 

 

[novacova]

23 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

Nope.

 

There is no such thing as "race". 

 

If you disagree, what race are Thai?

What race are Thai, Thai. Thai mutt. Depending on what region their genetics have influence. North Thai are obviously genetically different than south Thai people and in the north there are groups that are genetically different in various regions of the north, influenced by migration. There’s different groups that have different/more genetic influences than others. I’m an American with 4 different genetics of European races, an American euro mutt.

Edited September 28, 2023 by novacova

[Danderman123]

2 minutes ago, novacova said:

What race are Thai, Thai. Thai mutt. Depending on what region their genetics have influence. North Thai are obviously genetically different than south Thai people. There’s different groups that have different/more genetic influences than others. I’m an American with 4 different genetics of European races, an American euro mutt.

What are the 4 European "races"?

 

You are saying that Thai is a "race"? How does that work? Is a Thai from Buriram who speaks Khmen the same race as a Thai from the North who speaks Lanna?

[fondue zoo]

4 hours ago, Tropposurfer said:

We are ALL descended from a few black ancestors who began to walk out of Africa hundreds of thousands of hears ago. 

damn it, now I'm a white honky.

[novacova]

3 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

What are the 4 European "races"?

 

You are saying that Thai is a "race"? How does that work? Is a Thai from Buriram who speaks Khmen the same race as a Thai from the North who speaks Lanna?

Race is what people use to differentiate themselves from other groups. Genetic terminology should be used. Is a white American that knows little about his/her heritage from Baton Rouge Louisiana a different race from an American Indigenous Indian? Depends on the genetic influence, maybe the person from Louisiana has indigenous American blood and the indigenous American has a mixture of North African and German.

[AustinRacing]

Why don’t you come out and say what you really want to say. 

[fondue zoo]

17 minutes ago, AustinRacing said:

Why don’t you come out and say what you really want to say. 

 

 

[Scott Tracy]

4 hours ago, FruitPudding said:

Isn't that the concept of race?

There is but 1 race. The human race.

[FruitPudding]

40 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

 

You are saying that Thai is a "race"? How does that work? Is a Thai from Buriram who speaks Khmen the same race as a Thai from the North who speaks Lanna?

They are ethnically different, Khymer, Lanna.

 

Thai is a nationality.

 

I'd say Asian is a race.

[ballpoint]

There are five language groups, and 62 ethnic groups recognised in Thailand: 

Tai - 24 ethnic groups, basically down the north-central-south "backbone" of the country, with some outliers (Thai Khorat, Thai Loei etc), where the official Thai language comes from

Austroasiatic - 22 ethnic groups, including Khmer, Kuay, Nyah Kur, Vietnamese, etc predominantly around lower and eastern Isan

Sino-Tibetan - 11 ethnic groups, including Burmese, Lisu, Karen, Yunnanese, Akha, etc

Austronesian - 3 groups, Malay, Moken, Urak Lawai

Hmong-Mien - 2 groups, Hmong (Mao), Mien (Yao)

 

Each has its own origins / migration paths.  If the OP is further interested then I recommend this book. Published in 2014, it is the most recent and comprehensive one on the topic that I am aware of:

 

Early Mainland Southeast Asia: From First Humans to Angkor: Higham, Charles: 9786167339443: Amazon.com: Book

 

Edit:

From the blurb, with some relevant information for this topic:

This is the first time that the entire course of mainland Southeast Asian prehistory has been covered in one volume. This is a vast canvas, that covers the mainland as it waxed and waned with the changing level of the sea. It begins with the early homins of Flores and Java, who came from Africa over a million years ago. The second major arrival came at least 50,000 years ago, when ancestral anatomically modern humans left Africa and their first great exodus, reached the warm and inviting lowlands of Southeast Asia.

 

Dramatic new discoveries now place the origins of rice and millet domestication in China at least five thousand years ago, and this lead to a series of movements into Southeast Asia, where the farmers met with and mixed with local groups of hunter gatherers. A vital new series of radiocarbon determinations from two key Thai sites, Ban Non Wat and Ban Chiang, has revealed that copper metallurgy, again of northern origin, spread across the mainland from the late second millennium BC, an innovation that sparked fundamental social changes.

 

By 400 BC, the mainland was incorporated in a maritime trade network that brought exotic goods from India and China. The establishment of the Iron Age at this juncture stimulated further social changes that the author traces into the period of early states. The civilizations of Southeast Asia centred at Angkor, in Central Thailand and the coast of Vietnam are ancestral to the modern nations of Southeast Asia.

 

Edited September 28, 2023 by ballpoint

[Danderman123]

48 minutes ago, ballpoint said:

There are five language groups, and 62 ethnic groups recognised in Thailand: 

Tai - 24 ethnic groups, basically down the north-central-south "backbone" of the country, with some outliers (Thai Khorat, Thai Loei etc), where the official Thai language comes from

Austroasiatic - 22 ethnic groups, including Khmer, Kuay, Nyah Kur, Vietnamese, etc predominantly around lower and eastern Isan

Sino-Tibetan - 11 ethnic groups, including Burmese, Lisu, Karen, Yunnanese, Akha, etc

Austronesian - 3 groups, Malay, Moken, Urak Lawai

Hmong-Mien - 2 groups, Hmong (Mao), Mien (Yao)

 

Each has its own origins / migration paths.  If the OP is further interested then I recommend this book. Published in 2014, it is the most recent and comprehensive one on the topic that I am aware of:

 

Early Mainland Southeast Asia: From First Humans to Angkor: Higham, Charles: 9786167339443: Amazon.com: Book

 

Edit:

From the blurb, with some relevant information for this topic:

This is the first time that the entire course of mainland Southeast Asian prehistory has been covered in one volume. This is a vast canvas, that covers the mainland as it waxed and waned with the changing level of the sea. It begins with the early homins of Flores and Java, who came from Africa over a million years ago. The second major arrival came at least 50,000 years ago, when ancestral anatomically modern humans left Africa and their first great exodus, reached the warm and inviting lowlands of Southeast Asia.

 

Dramatic new discoveries now place the origins of rice and millet domestication in China at least five thousand years ago, and this lead to a series of movements into Southeast Asia, where the farmers met with and mixed with local groups of hunter gatherers. A vital new series of radiocarbon determinations from two key Thai sites, Ban Non Wat and Ban Chiang, has revealed that copper metallurgy, again of northern origin, spread across the mainland from the late second millennium BC, an innovation that sparked fundamental social changes.

 

By 400 BC, the mainland was incorporated in a maritime trade network that brought exotic goods from India and China. The establishment of the Iron Age at this juncture stimulated further social changes that the author traces into the period of early states. The civilizations of Southeast Asia centred at Angkor, in Central Thailand and the coast of Vietnam are ancestral to the modern nations of Southeast Asia.

 

Just listing the various ethnic groups currently in Thailand masks the predominant genetic background in the country - the widespread Mon population 2,000 years ago, with an overlay of Indian (who brought the Hindu religion to Indochina), and then a relatively minor infusion of Tai (from China).

 

As a result, the population and culture of Thailand is based on Mon culture, with a substrate of Indian, and a sprinking of Tai. If you don't think that the Tai immigrants adopted Mon culture, examine the culture of Tai peoples back in China, and you will see how the Tai people were transformed into Thai people.

[Nick Carter icp]

1 hour ago, ballpoint said:

There are five language groups, and 62 ethnic groups recognised in Thailand: 

Tai - 24 ethnic groups, basically down the north-central-south "backbone" of the country, with some outliers (Thai Khorat, Thai Loei etc), where the official Thai language comes from

Austroasiatic - 22 ethnic groups, including Khmer, Kuay, Nyah Kur, Vietnamese, etc predominantly around lower and eastern Isan

Sino-Tibetan - 11 ethnic groups, including Burmese, Lisu, Karen, Yunnanese, Akha, etc

Austronesian - 3 groups, Malay, Moken, Urak Lawai

Hmong-Mien - 2 groups, Hmong (Mao), Mien (Yao)

 

Each has its own origins / migration paths.  If the OP is further interested then I recommend this book. Published in 2014, it is the most recent and comprehensive one on the topic that I am aware of:

 

Early Mainland Southeast Asia: From First Humans to Angkor: Higham, Charles: 9786167339443: Amazon.com: Book

 

Edit:

From the blurb, with some relevant information for this topic:

This is the first time that the entire course of mainland Southeast Asian prehistory has been covered in one volume. This is a vast canvas, that covers the mainland as it waxed and waned with the changing level of the sea. It begins with the early homins of Flores and Java, who came from Africa over a million years ago. The second major arrival came at least 50,000 years ago, when ancestral anatomically modern humans left Africa and their first great exodus, reached the warm and inviting lowlands of Southeast Asia.

 

Dramatic new discoveries now place the origins of rice and millet domestication in China at least five thousand years ago, and this lead to a series of movements into Southeast Asia, where the farmers met with and mixed with local groups of hunter gatherers. A vital new series of radiocarbon determinations from two key Thai sites, Ban Non Wat and Ban Chiang, has revealed that copper metallurgy, again of northern origin, spread across the mainland from the late second millennium BC, an innovation that sparked fundamental social changes.

 

By 400 BC, the mainland was incorporated in a maritime trade network that brought exotic goods from India and China. The establishment of the Iron Age at this juncture stimulated further social changes that the author traces into the period of early states. The civilizations of Southeast Asia centred at Angkor, in Central Thailand and the coast of Vietnam are ancestral to the modern nations of Southeast Asia.

 

There is also the Thai/Scottish ethnic group , which currently has one person that group 

[FruitPudding]

10 hours ago, Nick Carter icp said:

There is also the Thai/Scottish ethnic group , which currently has one person that group 

What??