ISRAEL IS AT WAR !

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3 hours ago, Skipalongcassidy said:

Not in the eyes of the Hateful 8... 

Had the Israelis followed international law in the first place, there would be no isolated Gaza.

[Morch]

59 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Since the Israelis left Gaza they have invaded once or a few times, leaving dead children and destruction in their wake. Bombing would also qualify as an "invasion".

 

I absolutely agree they are being used by sinister forces behind the scenes, but Israel has created a population eager to take revenge with it's siege and collective punishment. Every time Israel bombs Gaza they cause young men to desire revenge on the enemy.

 

It's been ugly since the Nakba.

 

I agree it's going to get ugly, very ugly, and for every Gazan killed there will likely be 10 willing recruits for Hamas.

Israelis have to recognise that using the hammer on Palestinians for 30 years hasn't prevented this conflict, the Palestinians are not going away, and it's time to try something different if they don't want another repeat again and again and again.

 

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/einstein-s-parable-of-quantum-insanity/

“Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.”

That witticism—I’ll call it “Einstein Insanity”—is usually attributed to Albert Einstein.

 

Logic not in evidence.

Does Israel simply bomb Gaza on a whim? Or do these attacks have 'something' to do with Hamas actions?

Israel's 'hammer' might not work to prevent the conflict (I doubt 'prevent' got much to do with it), but again - how does Hamas policy and stance equate? Did their armed resistance mode do anything for the Palestinians, or even the people of Gaza? That is, other than the ongoing hardship, misery and routine bouts of destruction and death.

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11 minutes ago, Morch said:

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That's no my claim, but your version of it.

I'm suggesting that for whatever reason, the Palestinians seem forever stuck on a single course of action. So far there are no signs that it leads them toward better results. On the contrary, each and every iteration makes their situation worse. The inability to change course, to formulate a new strategy (for decades now!) is mind boggling.

 

The article you referred to in your original post was just the usual stuff - something needs to be done for the Palestinians, and at the same time neglecting any expectation of the Palestinians themselves to act in a constructive manner in order to get there.

 

Violence has it's place in national struggles. So does appealing to outside forces and the world at large. Blaming the oppressors is obviously customary. But these cannot be the only (or even the main) elements, if dreams are to be realized.

 

I am not contesting that Israel's policies vs. the Palestinians are always righteous, smart, or anything like that. On the contrary, I'm often critical of them (especially with regard to the illegal settlement effort). But both Israel's policies and the International community supposed failures are not the whole story. Somehow, on these topics these are given prominence, while expectations of accountability, responsibility and constructive action from the Palestinians are not.

 

 

As I pointed out, before the intifada they were being treated very badly. What reason do they have to believe that reasonable behavior will get them anywhere?  What government could act in a way that counters the sentiments of its people?

Edited October 9, 2023 by placeholder

[JonnyF]

On 10/7/2023 at 6:18 PM, Chomper Higgot said:

Hamas playing right into Netanyahu’s hands.

 

He’s already declared this to be war, he’ll wrap himself in the Israeli flag to shield himself from his troubles and  Palestinians will pay with their blood in the reprisals that are coming.

 

 

 

Yes it's all Netanyahu's fault. Damn him being attacked and promising to defend his country.????

 

What is it with the extreme leftists and supporting Palestine? I really don't get it. Is it really as simple as more Anti-Semitism from the left?

[Jeff the Chef]

21 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I know what you wrote, but why should the Gazan's give up their weapons if Israel does not? Is not Gaza an independent territory, even if it is under seige? It's not governed by Israel.

Gaza may well be an independent territory but it is always being harassed by either the Israeli forces/settlers. IDF. 

Hopefully an International force would keep both parties apart, either by consent or force their choice, maybe a demilitarised zone, like between North and South Korea.  

[Ben Zioner]

9 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

“subdue the animals”

Get a grip of yourself.

 

Nope.

 

"The verb kavash literally means to place your foot on the neck of your conquered enemy signifying a submission of the enemy to his defeater. "

[Morch]

46 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Give them time. The US is sending munitions, which raises the question of what they would be used for, as I'm sure the IDF has enough bullets to kill a few hundred lightly armed Palestinians.

 

Netanyahu is certainly using language that indicates he wants to destroy Gaza.

The USA Navy thing is just for show.

 

The munitions in question are most likely Iron Dome interceptors.

 

The USA have 1 or 2 storage facilities in Israel holding the more common ammo/arms etc. These are intended for USA use in time of regional crisis (to shorten supply lines and backup other regional depots). With USA permission Israel could withdraw stuff from there as well.

 

You seem to place a whole lot of confidence and trust in Netanyahu's words, when it suits.

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1 minute ago, JonnyF said:

Yes it's all Netanyahu's fault. Damn him being attacked and promising to defend his country.????

 

What is it with the extreme leftists and supporting Palestine? I really don't get it. Is it really as simple as more Anti-Semitism from the left?

Here once again is the quote from Benny Morris, the Israeli historian about how Palestinians were treated before the first Intifada

https://archive.org/details/righteousvictims00morr_0/page/340/mode/2up

And that period was relatively benign compared to more recent times.

It's funny that people who complain about the tyranny of the EU somehow expect Palestinians to find tolerable they way they are treated.

[Morch]

50 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Have you not seen the destruction already created in Gaza by bombs? It's hardly "nothing".

Said the poster doing his best to minimize the Hamas attack on Israel....

[Morch]

45 minutes ago, MrMojoRisin said:

What do you mean “in the event”?

 

The UN has done nothing for decades, nearly always due to the US exercising its veto powers.

 

As for the Palestinians, it appears they have but two options:

 

1. Passively sit and wait for Israel to kill them and steal all the land 

2. Terrorism

 

It’s a lose - lose situation for the poor bastards.

 

Nothing prevented the Hamas from developing Gaza along civilian, non violent lines. Nothing prevents the Palestinians, in general, from embracing non-violent protest. You're just pushing a false no-choice narrative.

[Morch]

45 minutes ago, MrMojoRisin said:

The Irgun?

 

Which was a relatively minor organization,  relative to the 'Hagana'. The latter, it might be added, was directly tied with efforts toward creating national institutions, services and the like well before independence. When Israel was founded, the Irgun's last Hail Mary attempt at military separatism was crushed. Similarly, the Hagan's elite force ('Palmach') was disbanded, to it's members' protests - in favor of strengthening the budding national army (the IDF).

 

[Morch]

39 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Ah yes, that terrorist Zionist organisation. Wasn't Begin an Irgun terrorist?

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menachem_Begin

Begin was described by the British government as the "leader of the notorious terrorist organisation"

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1308598-israel-is-at-war/page/22/#comment-18405863

[Chomper Higgot]

31 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Yes it's all Netanyahu's fault. Damn him being attacked and promising to defend his country.????

 

What is it with the extreme leftists and supporting Palestine? I really don't get it. Is it really as simple as more Anti-Semitism from the left?

Perhaps there’s a reason for your failure to comprehend my post.

 

It and I do not imply even in the slightest that Netanyahu is in anyway responsible for this Hamas attack on Israel.

 

Nor does my post nor I in anyway support Palestine, or Hamas  for that matter. 
 

‘Extreme leftist’?

’More antisemitism from the left’?

 

I’ll be kind Jonny.

 

Perhaps you were intending to respond to another post and another member, mistakes in quoting do happen.

 

Misreading and misrepresentation  of posts and members expressed views happens too, occasionally by mistake.

 

 

 

Edited October 9, 2023 by Chomper Higgot

[Purdey]

Israel is being cautious as it receives billions from the USA, which doesn’t want to support killing civilians. Bad PR.

[ricklev]

Hey, here is a thought, why doesn't Egypt just open the border to Gaza and then all of the Arab countries that hate Israel can accept the Palestinians as citizens of their countries?  Problem solved.

Edited October 9, 2023 by ricklev

[Morch]

21 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Gaza may well be an independent territory but it is always being harassed by either the Israeli forces/settlers. IDF. 

Hopefully an International force would keep both parties apart, either by consent or force their choice, maybe a demilitarised zone, like between North and South Korea.  

As far as I'm aware, the UN Charter requires both parties agree to placing international troops, and guarantee no attacking them. By the way there just such a force on the Israeli-Lebanese border. Don't seem to be preventing much of anything.

[Chomper Higgot]

26 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Nothing prevented the Hamas from developing Gaza along civilian, non violent lines. Nothing prevents the Palestinians, in general, from embracing non-violent protest. You're just pushing a false no-choice narrative.

And nothing forced Hamas to make this attack which they absolutely know will result in an Israeli response that will cost the lives of Palestinians.

 

There  are no indications Hamas acts in any sense for the interests of the Palestinians. 
 

Hamas made a plan of attack in which the lives of Palestinians that will be lost are expendable to that plan.

 

I doubt they even did the math.

 

 

 

[Morch]

4 minutes ago, ricklev said:

Hey, here is a thought, why doesn't Egypt just open the border to Gaza and then all of the Arab countries that hate Israel can accept the Palestinians as citizens of their countries?  Problem solved.

Would you?

[Morch]

1 minute ago, Chomper Higgot said:

And nothing forced Hamas to make this attack which they absolutely know will result in an Israeli response that will cost the lives of Palestinians.

 

There  are no indications Hamas acts in any sense for the interests of the Palestinians. 
 

Hamas made a plan of attack in which the lives of Palestinians that will be lost are expendable to that plan.

 

I doubt they even did the math.

 

 

 

 

It can be taken a step further on the cynicism ladder. The more destruction and Palestinian casualties, the larger reconstruction and rehabilitation pledges post-war.

 

[Ben Zioner]

11 minutes ago, ricklev said:

Hey, here is a thought, why doesn't Egypt just open the border to Gaza and then all of the Arab countries that hate Israel can accept the Palestinians as citizens of their countries?  Problem solved.

Not a new thought at all. But Golda handed  over the Sinai too easily.

[seajae]

5 hours ago, MrMojoRisin said:

How should Palestinians fightback against Israeli occupation and oppression?

What options do they have?

What would you do if you had to walk a mile or two in Palestinian shoes?

I would not start killing innocent women and children or using them as hostages, this is only done  by cowards that have no humanity in them and deserve to be put down like the animals they are. Using violence so you can get your jollies is pathetic, I am not demented like these  animals and I am capable of rational thought, using religion and hatred of another country as an excuse has no place in the modern world, it is not 2023 bc where these terrorists still live

[Jeff the Chef]

7 minutes ago, Morch said:

As far as I'm aware, the UN Charter requires both parties agree to placing international troops, and guarantee no attacking them. By the way there just such a force on the Israeli-Lebanese border. Don't seem to be preventing much of anything.

We are discussing Gaza here.

[Morch]

4 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

We are discussing Gaza here.

Yeah, Gaza and a possible UN force placement. I just gave an example of how this doesn't work in a very related situation. By the way, years ago there was a force of international monitors in some of the Gaza passes. May want to check how that ended.

[Ben Zioner]

2 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

You Sir, are a blight on this conflict.

Yep, a bit like Churchill who was a war criminal because he saved Britain from the German invasion.

[MrMojoRisin]

3 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

Nope.

 

"The verb kavash literally means to place your foot on the neck of your conquered enemy signifying a submission of the enemy to his defeater. "

After 70 years of trying (with unlimited US support) Israel has utterly failed to achieve “kavash” against the Palestinians. I dare say that will be the case for millennia to come.

[Jeff the Chef]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

Yeah, Gaza and a possible UN force placement. I just gave an example of how this doesn't work in a very related situation. By the way, years ago there was a force of international monitors in some of the Gaza passes. May want to check how that ended.

So therefore let's try again but this time use the sanctions card as used by NATO in the Russian (Special Operation) that IMHO would keep Israel and Gaza compliant.

[Jingthing]

2 hours ago, daveAustin said:

Is it? A group of big kids come into a playground and push the little kid around. No power, little support, rudimentary weapons—while one is an acquired nuclear power backed by the most powerful nations. Don’t agree with any of it and killing civilians is bad, but they’ve essentially had their country stolen.  The US and co should butt out.

What country was stolen?

[sammieuk1]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

 

With about 150 hostages in place? Sure....

Don't think that hostages and negotiations are going to work this time 100,000 troops are going in and Hamas and its supporters will get a one way ticket to paradise ????

[Paul Catton]

8 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

Yep, a bit like Churchill who was a war criminal because he saved Britain from the German invasion.

If only he had listened to King Abdul Aziz Ibn Saud.

https://jinsa.org/ibn-saud-fdr-future-of-jewish-state/

[Jeff the Chef]

2 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

Yep, a bit like Churchill who was a war criminal because he saved Britain from the German invasion.

IMHO, part of the problem is remarks like that, whatever you think they are still human beings.