ISRAEL IS AT WAR !

[Ben Zioner]

4 minutes ago, sammieuk1 said:

Don't think that hostages and negotiations are going to work this time 100,000 troops are going in and Hamas and its supporters will get a one way ticket to paradise ????

Not sure that's needed. We just don't turn electricity and  water supply until the last hostage has been returned. Total blockade and  zero negotiation.

[Chomper Higgot]

11 minutes ago, sammieuk1 said:

Don't think that hostages and negotiations are going to work this time 100,000 troops are going in and Hamas and its supporters will get a one way ticket to paradise ????

I very much doubt Israel will mount a ground offensive.

 

The first, rational, question to ask is did Hamas plan this with intent to provoke a ground offensive?

 

Israeli Intelligence failed to detect the planned attack and/or the military leadership failed to understand the available intelligence.

 

The next question to ask is what is Hamas’ state of readiness for the Israeli response.

 

Israeli Intelligence have demonstrably failed once, only idiocy or desperation would plan a ground offensive under conditions of failed Intelligence.

 

Of course Netanyahu might be both, or simply desperate to do something.

 

The families of Israeli Military personnel are surely hoping clearer heads are in command.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 9, 2023 by Chomper Higgot

[Hanaguma]

8 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

What country was stolen?

Maybe he means like when FIVE Arab countries decided to attack Israel in 1948, after the state was declared by the UN.

 

This is actually the root cause of the Palestinian refugee crisis today. Prior to the attack, Palestinians living in Jewish areas were encouraged to leave, so as to make it easier for the armies of the five attackers to kill all the Jews. Any Arabs that stayed behind would be presumed to be collaborators. 

So, the Palestinians fled thinking it was a temporary state of affairs until their allies wiped out the Jews. Then, they (the Palestinians) could move back in and reap the rewards.

 

Things turned out differently though.

[impulse]

14 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

Yep, a bit like Churchill who was a war criminal because he saved Britain from the German invasion.

Don't know that I'd be holding up Churchill or his ilk right now. 

 

Today's conflict can be tied directly to their duplicitous dealing in the Middle East to "save Britain".  Both World Wars.  The world's been paying for their colonial duplicity for over a century.

 

[Morch]

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

Had the Israelis followed international law in the first place, there would be no isolated Gaza.

To be generous, this is a wildly one sided comment. To be less generous, it's nonsense.

 

 

[Morch]

1 hour ago, placeholder said:

As I pointed out, before the intifada they were being treated very badly. What reason do they have to believe that reasonable behavior will get them anywhere?  What government could act in a way that counters the sentiments of its people?

You haven't 'pointed out' anything. You cherry-picked a quote, and now treat is as gospel.

Palestinian rejectionism did not start during the Intifada. It was there from the onset, and through the decades. With each iteration of adhering to it, they lost more. The only time when this trend was reversed (temporarily, obviously) was when they went for the Oslo Accords. As in, did something different.

 

Mostly, Palestinians rejectionism and violence works for Israel's right wing agenda (a mirror image, by the way, to the effect of the oppression meted through the occupation, or the ongoing situation vs. Gaza).

 

As for 'what government' - you could just leave the question there. Even Palestinians deride their own 'governments'. Most Palestinian leaders did more to line their own pockets and secure their political positions than to work for the benefit of their people. Not like Israel haven't had the same issue for years now, but at least it had a few decent, or effective ones over the years.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

Yes it's all Netanyahu's fault. Damn him being attacked and promising to defend his country.????

 

What is it with the extreme leftists and supporting Palestine? I really don't get it. Is it really as simple as more Anti-Semitism from the left?

Netanyahu was not being attacked.

As the attack unfolded he was vacationing in a luxury hotel at the north of Israel. Took him 7 hours to address the public. And even then he didn't say anything meaningful. Same goes for his ministers, normally having trouble to keep their mouths shut.

[Morch]

1 hour ago, Jeff the Chef said:

Gaza may well be an independent territory but it is always being harassed by either the Israeli forces/settlers. IDF. 

Hopefully an International force would keep both parties apart, either by consent or force their choice, maybe a demilitarised zone, like between North and South Korea.  

Gaza harassed by Israeli 'settlers'?  You are, perhaps, conflating the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.

Consent would not be given by Hamas, as they have nothing to gain from it. Their whole justification is being an armed resistance movement. Israel would not consent to trust it's security to an international force given how lame this works on its northern border.

 

By force? Do you see any sane country sending it's troops to clear the Gaza Strip? Would be interesting to see how 'humanely' and 'in accordance with international law' they'd fare. And seriously, no one would send troops to force Israel to do anything. Get real. Diplomacy is the only half-way possible option.

 

The area in question is pretty small. Can't see how a 'demilitarized zone' would be effective.

[Morch]

44 minutes ago, MrMojoRisin said:

After 70 years of trying (with unlimited US support) Israel has utterly failed to achieve “kavash” against the Palestinians. I dare say that will be the case for millennia to come.

And after 70 years, the Palestinian predicament keeps getting worse.

[KhunLA]

Let's create a state for a bunch of non Islam folks to a predominately Islamic area .... what could go wrong.

 

Nobody learns from history ... hint: Crusades ????

There goes the neighborhood ????

source

 

The UN ... creating havoc again & again.

https://history.state.gov/milestones/1945-1952/creation-israel

 

Edited October 9, 2023 by KhunLA

[Morch]

43 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

So therefore let's try again but this time use the sanctions card as used by NATO in the Russian (Special Operation) that IMHO would keep Israel and Gaza compliant.

The Gaza Strip is already under a pretty tight blockade. The Hamas is under various sanctions as well. Doesn't prevent them from launching attacks, or restocking their rocket pile between rounds of fighting. I suspect you are unaware that both Lebanon, and the Hezbollah are under official sanctions, and an arms embargo.

[placeholder]

19 minutes ago, Hanaguma said:

Maybe he means like when FIVE Arab countries decided to attack Israel in 1948, after the state was declared by the UN.

 

This is actually the root cause of the Palestinian refugee crisis today. Prior to the attack, Palestinians living in Jewish areas were encouraged to leave, so as to make it easier for the armies of the five attackers to kill all the Jews. Any Arabs that stayed behind would be presumed to be collaborators. 

So, the Palestinians fled thinking it was a temporary state of affairs until their allies wiped out the Jews. Then, they (the Palestinians) could move back in and reap the rewards.

 

Things turned out differently though.

Oh, that's what it was? A strategic move by the Palestinian population to reap the rewards? I guess Palestinian civilians are different from other civilians who flee war zones. Not just that, but there's plenty of evidence that Israelis threatened Palestinians to leave. In 1985 a document was released that was created by the Israeli Defense Intelligence services in 1948 that listed the reasons why Palestinian civilians fled Israel during the 1948 war 

https://books.google.co.th/books?id=0nUqCwLOW-sC&pg=PA194&lpg=PA194&dq="The+Emigration+of+the+Arabs+of+Palestine+in+the+Period+1/12/1947+–+1/6/1948"&source=bl&ots=DT2jM-22kh&sig=ACfU3U1CF-HOWb8KzIxGJjSjvdVlWGG5BA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjal8HR_-eBAxW4bmwGHSd1DbcQ6AF6BAgIEAM#v=onepage&q="The Emigration of the Arabs of Palestine in the Period 1%2F12%2F1947 – 1%2F6%2F1948"&f=false

 

I don't think it's insignificant to note that Israel subsequently reclassified these documents as secret and historians  no longer have access to them.

https://www.972mag.com/classified-politicizing-the-nakba-in-israels-state-archives/

 

[Morch]

42 minutes ago, sammieuk1 said:

Don't think that hostages and negotiations are going to work this time 100,000 troops are going in and Hamas and its supporters will get a one way ticket to paradise ????

I don't know if negotiations will succeed, but reports are that Israel already asked Egypt to mediate. The Israeli ethos is that no one gets left behind, and the Israeli public, for a long time now, isn't quite as 'hard' as it used to be.

 

Netanyahu is a politician. It's a good question if he'll survive this, but ditching the hostages would assure he won't.

[Morch]

39 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

Not sure that's needed. We just don't turn electricity and  water supply until the last hostage has been returned. Total blockade and  zero negotiation.

Electricity is already down. This would effect water supply as well.

[placeholder]

20 minutes ago, Morch said:

You haven't 'pointed out' anything. You cherry-picked a quote, and now treat is as gospel.

Palestinian rejectionism did not start during the Intifada. It was there from the onset, and through the decades. With each iteration of adhering to it, they lost more. The only time when this trend was reversed (temporarily, obviously) was when they went for the Oslo Accords. As in, did something different.

 

Mostly, Palestinians rejectionism and violence works for Israel's right wing agenda (a mirror image, by the way, to the effect of the oppression meted through the occupation, or the ongoing situation vs. Gaza).

 

As for 'what government' - you could just leave the question there. Even Palestinians deride their own 'governments'. Most Palestinian leaders did more to line their own pockets and secure their political positions than to work for the benefit of their people. Not like Israel haven't had the same issue for years now, but at least it had a few decent, or effective ones over the years.

Really? I cherry picked a quote? You think Benny Morris and the other new historians would quarrel with that characterization?

As for them going to the Oslo accords...maybe they ultimately decided not to because it was politically not possible to sell it to their people?

And while Palestinian rejectionism may be unreasonable, is it unreasonable to expect people to behave that way when they are so badly treated? Are Palestinians the only people to behave unreasonably when they are treated so unjustly? These are people not AI bots.

And bad governance is typical in such circumstances. Look at the corruption that plagues government that have have succeeded in casting off colonial powers in the 20th century. Maybe it's got something to do with the kind of people who gain access to power in such turbulent conditions? 

Edited October 9, 2023 by placeholder

[KhunLA]

1950 there were more Jews in NYC than Israel ????

2M vs 1.2M

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_in_New_York_City

[Morch]

40 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I very much doubt Israel will mount a ground offensive.

 

The first, rational, question to ask is did Hamas plan this with intent to provoke a ground offensive?

 

Israeli Intelligence failed to detect the planned attack and/or the military leadership failed to understand the available intelligence.

 

The next question to ask is what is Hamas’ state of readiness for the Israeli response.

 

Israeli Intelligence have demonstrably failed once, only idiocy or desperation would plan a ground offensive under conditions of failed Intelligence.

 

Of course Netanyahu might be both, or simply desperate to do something.

 

The families of Israeli Military personnel are surely hoping clearer heads are in command.

 

 

 

 

 

Good points, agree with most.

But...

 

Netanyahu also needs to be seen as doing something. So maybe not an all out conquering of the Gaza Strip, but a limited ground maneuver. If the state of readiness on the Israeli side is as it seems, this could fail as well.

 

Then there are the hostages. This really complicates things.

 

Israeli social media is already flooded with conspiracy theories and accusation of 'traitors', 'leftists traitors', 'collaborators with Hamas/Iran', or trying to blame the anti-Netanyahu protestors. This is served courtesy of Netanyahu's social media apparatus (aka 'the poison machine'), Iranian and Russian bots.

 

[Jeff the Chef]

13 minutes ago, Morch said:

Gaza harassed by Israeli 'settlers'?  You are, perhaps, conflating the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.

Consent would not be given by Hamas, as they have nothing to gain from it. Their whole justification is being an armed resistance movement. Israel would not consent to trust it's security to an international force given how lame this works on its northern border.

 

By force? Do you see any sane country sending it's troops to clear the Gaza Strip? Would be interesting to see how 'humanely' and 'in accordance with international law' they'd fare. And seriously, no one would send troops to force Israel to do anything. Get real. Diplomacy is the only half-way possible option.

 

The area in question is pretty small. Can't see how a 'demilitarized zone' would be effective.

OK, I give in, lets just keep on killing each other, there's more than enough people on the planet anyway.

[Morch]

12 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Oh, that's what it was? A strategic move by the Palestinian population to reap the rewards? I guess Palestinian civilians are different from other civilians who flee war zones. Not just that, but there's plenty of evidence that Israelis threatened Palestinians to leave. In 1985 a document was released that was created by the Israeli Defense Intelligence services in 1948 that listed the reasons why Palestinian civilians fled Israel during the 1948 war 

https://books.google.co.th/books?id=0nUqCwLOW-sC&pg=PA194&lpg=PA194&dq="The+Emigration+of+the+Arabs+of+Palestine+in+the+Period+1/12/1947+–+1/6/1948"&source=bl&ots=DT2jM-22kh&sig=ACfU3U1CF-HOWb8KzIxGJjSjvdVlWGG5BA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjal8HR_-eBAxW4bmwGHSd1DbcQ6AF6BAgIEAM#v=onepage&q="The Emigration of the Arabs of Palestine in the Period 1%2F12%2F1947 – 1%2F6%2F1948"&f=false

 

I don't think it's insignificant to note that Israel subsequently reclassified these documents as secret and historians  no longer have access to them.

https://www.972mag.com/classified-politicizing-the-nakba-in-israels-state-archives/

 

Some were driven out, some were encouraged by own leaders to do, many did what people do in such situations and ran away.

 

Each and every one of these topics degrades into bickering over historical details (presented from hyper partisan points of view), as if 'winning' some point or 'proving' something would change anything. Life doesn't work this way.

 

At present, it doesn't matter all that much. Of interest, yes. But it's not like either side will realize his mistakes, hang collective head in shame, and fold. 

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

6 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Good points, agree with most.

But...

 

Netanyahu also needs to be seen as doing something. So maybe not an all out conquering of the Gaza Strip, but a limited ground maneuver. If the state of readiness on the Israeli side is as it seems, this could fail as well.

 

Then there are the hostages. This really complicates things.

 

Israeli social media is already flooded with conspiracy theories and accusation of 'traitors', 'leftists traitors', 'collaborators with Hamas/Iran', or trying to blame the anti-Netanyahu protestors. This is served courtesy of Netanyahu's social media apparatus (aka 'the poison machine'), Iranian and Russian bots.

 

The same accusations are turning up here.

 

Oh well.

[novacova]

1 hour ago, ricklev said:

Hey, here is a thought, why doesn't Egypt just open the border to Gaza and then all of the Arab countries that hate Israel can accept the Palestinians as citizens of their countries?  Problem solved.

Well because it would defeat the purpose of having an antagonist proxy 

[herfiehandbag]

2 hours ago, Morch said:

 

With about 150 hostages in place? Sure....

The hostages are a massive complication.

 

They will probably be used in an attempt to bargain for the release of all of the many Hamas terrorists Israel holds, and possibly as human shields for Hamas to hide behind.

 

The release of these terrorists, together with any other "demands" which would have to be met, will both reinvigorate and reinforce the Hamas project, which don't forget is unequivocally aimed at destroying Israel, and the killing and or expulsion of it's Jewish population. The concessions they will demand will weaken Israel's ability to defend itself. Episodes like those of this weekend will become commonplace, and the accompanying death tolls will continue.

 

There is no prospect of effective negotiation. Iran will make sure of that. Iran's aim is to control the Middle East, it already has control of Lebanon, and has ambitions for the rest of the region. It sees the elimination of Israel as a means of cementing it's popularity in the region, and removing the main bar on extending its control to include Jordan, Syria, Iraq and likely Egypt.

 

That really leaves only the option of taking the battle to Hamas, to destroy it's military power, and hope (probably vainly) to recover the hostages.

 

Israel's government faces horrible dilemmas, terrible choices. Choices which will colour the Middle East for a generation. I say choices, but really they don't have a choice, if they don't destroy Hamas then the future of their state, and it's 9 million plus population is grim. If they give in to Hamas's demands, then thousands of it's people will die as these attacks continue.

 

The fate of these wretched hostages is awful, but inevitably must be considered in this context. My heart bleeds for the mother of that German girl , making desperate pleas in the hope that somehow she is still alive, (she isn't, God rest her soul); there will be hundreds and hundreds of others. A terrible, terrible choice, look at that minister's face, it haunts him. But he, they, really don't have a choice.

Edited October 9, 2023 by herfiehandbag

[Morch]

12 minutes ago, placeholder said:

Really? I cherry picked a quote? You think Benny Morris and the other new historians would quarrel with that characterization?

As for them going to the Oslo accords...maybe they ultimately decided not to because it was politically not possible to sell it to their people?

And while Palestinian rejectionism may be unreasonable, is it unreasonable to expect people to behave that way when they are so badly treated? Are Palestinians the only people to behave unreasonably when they are treated so unjustly? These are people not AI bots.

And bad governance is typical in such circumstances. Look at the corruption that plagues government that have have succeeded in casting off colonial powers in the 20th century. Maybe it's got something to do with the kind of people who gain access to power in such turbulent conditions? 

You definitely cherry-picked a quote. That's not debatable. There are plenty of views, books, accounts and whatnot on the matter. You picked one, not even fully in context. And on the subject of Morris - he had. at least once, a major change of views, revising certain things he wrote. I'm not pointing this out in regard to the bit your presented, but to demonstrate that even he doesn't treat his words with the same reverence you seem to.

 

Not sure what was your point regarding the Oslo Accords. Lost me there. Sorry.

 

Rejectionism would be understandable up to a point. Given the relevant frame of time, I'd say its sale-by date expired. At what point does one stop making excuses?

 

Bad governance is not mandatory. The Founding Fathers weren't so bad. And note that I pitted it vs. Israel's leadership, which (disregarding current ones) wasn't bad to begin with. This goes hand in hand with previous comments about constructing social and political infrastructure.

[Morch]

15 minutes ago, Jeff the Chef said:

OK, I give in, lets just keep on killing each other, there's more than enough people on the planet anyway.

That's one possible reaction to being educated about how complex the situation is, and how simplistic solutions do not apply.

[Jeff the Chef]

2 minutes ago, Morch said:

That's one possible reaction to being educated about how complex the situation is, and how simplistic solutions do not apply.

OK, as I said lets keep killing one another, see who gets fed up first, what is it 75 years and counting?

[MrMojoRisin]

1 hour ago, sammieuk1 said:

Don't think that hostages and negotiations are going to work this time 100,000 troops are going in and Hamas and its supporters will get a one way ticket to paradise ????

Yep.

 

And in about 3 - 5 years the Palestinians will kill a few hundred or more Israeli’s again and then…, so on and on it goes

[JonnyF]

56 minutes ago, Morch said:

Netanyahu was not being attacked.

Yes, I meant the country he is the leader of was attacked.

 

I didn't mean he was ambushed in a dark alley by 5 heavies with baseball bats. I thought that was obvious. 

[novacova]

12 hours ago, johnnybangkok said:

'Gaza is in essence a refugee camp (about 70 percent of those living in Gaza come from families displaced from the 1948 war) and an open-air prison, according to human rights groups. The United Nations describes the occupied territory as a “chronic humanitarian crisis.”

Imposed by what group? The Gaza situation is solely of Hamas doing, this is the prison camp of Hamas run by the current leader warden Ismail Haniyeh. Eliminate the hate towards Israel and eliminate the Iran Hezbollah Hamas element and the semantical word games, then there would be no need for such a security zone along the Gaza Strip. 

[thaibeachlovers]

2 hours ago, FruitPudding said:

Of course, but nobody is glorifying or supporting Israel's actions.

 

However, much of the world is supporting Palestine and turning a blind eye to what they do.

 

Maybe they think you have to crack some eggs to make an omelet.

 

Each to their own.

 

I don't support Palestine because the Islamic extremists will turn on us next. 

They have no reason to love us seeing as all the so called freedom loving western countries left them to rot under Israeli occupation for decades.

 

If some countries are supporting the Palestinians, it's because they see what has been going on and don't like it.

[herfiehandbag]

3 hours ago, JonnyF said:

Yes it's all Netanyahu's fault. Damn him being attacked and promising to defend his country.????

 

What is it with the extreme leftists and supporting Palestine? I really don't get it. Is it really as simple as more Anti-Semitism from the left?

The silliest one I remember was some bunch marching in London under rainbow flags in support of Hamas, whilst in Gaza Hamas was gaily (no irony intended) throwing homosexuals off of tall buildings.

Edited October 9, 2023 by herfiehandbag