5 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Here’s a question to everyone, but particularly to @Morch because you are at least addressing issues not emotions.

 

I think we would all agree that the success of Hamas’ obscene terrorist attack (and it was without doubt an obscenity) was due in no small part to the failure of Israeli Intelligence Services to detect the rising threat and/or Israeli Military/Political Leadership to respond to any warnings given.

 

It is perhaps enticing to accept the argument that the Hamas attack (obscene as it was) was cunning, audacious and lucky.

 

There are rational arguments that Israel should be cautious in its military response, particularly ground invasion, given the demonstrated failures of Israeli Intelligence.

 

Implicit in that view is the acceptance that the success or failure of a military action is to a significant extent predetermined by the quality of the available intelligence.

 

Which shines a spot light on the elephant in the room.

 

Here are two questions deserving of consideration. I’m sure someone in Israel is either considering these questions or not doing their job:

 

Q1. Was the success of the (obscene) Hamas terrorist attack predicated on accurate Intelligence available to Hamas?

 

Q2. If so where did this accurate Intelligence come from and how did it make its way to Hamas?

 

 

 

Is that Alex Jones  ?

3 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

Is that Alex Jones  ?

No it is not.

 

Now try to address the questions I ask or jog on.

47 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

Well Danny, you certainly seem obsessed with the number of Palestinians killed and injured ( not so much so with Israeli casualties) Is that why in an earlier comment you said it was right for Hamas to prevent civilians from evacuating an imminent battlefield, so that they could stay there and improve the death toll statistics to criticise the IDF with ….. shameful, really shameful.

 

You even had the temerity to say that Palestinians prefer to stay in their own land and die for it (as if you have some right to speak for them) even though by the hundreds of thousands they are desperately trying to leave on IDF advice …. the most shameful use of human tragedy to score political points that I have witnessed on this forum.

Shameful on me to criticise the IDF? It's shameful and criminal behavior for the IDF to issue an evacuation order for 1.1 million human beings or risk being bombed. It seems you have no problem with such a threat to civilian population. They should not be given this criminal binary choice go away or die.

 

IDF is not issuing this criminal threat out of concern for Palestinian lives, far from it. They just want to move the entire population of Gaze closer to Egypt where they might be ending in a tent city in Sinai on the Egyptian side of the border as happened after 1796 and 1948 wars. 

 

Mass displacement of innocent civilians is a crime under international law which Israel does not give a toss about as long as the American master holds the Veto right. 

 

 

3 minutes ago, Danny Australia said:

Shameful on me to criticise the IDF? It's shameful and criminal behavior for the IDF to issue an evacuation order for 1.1 million human beings or risk being bombed. It seems you have no problem with such a threat to civilian population. They should not be given this criminal binary choice go away or die.

What other choice should they be given? 

3 minutes ago, Danny Australia said:

 

IDF is not issuing this criminal threat out of concern for Palestinian lives, far from it. They just want to move the entire population of Gaze closer to Egypt where they might be ending in a tent city in Sinai on the Egyptian side of the border as happened after 1796 and 1948 wars. 

How is it a criminal threat? 

3 minutes ago, Danny Australia said:

 

Mass displacement of innocent civilians is a crime under international law which Israel does not give a toss about as long as the American master holds the Veto right. 

 

What has the American master vetoed?

5 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Here’s a question to everyone, but particularly to @Morch because you are at least addressing issues not emotions.

 

I think we would all agree that the success of Hamas’ obscene terrorist attack (and it was without doubt an obscenity) was due in no small part to the failure of Israeli Intelligence Services to detect the rising threat and/or Israeli Military/Political Leadership to respond to any warnings given.

 

It is perhaps enticing to accept the argument that the Hamas attack (obscene as it was) was cunning, audacious and lucky.

 

There are rational arguments that Israel should be cautious in its military response, particularly ground invasion, given the demonstrated failures of Israeli Intelligence.

 

Implicit in that view is the acceptance that the success or failure of a military action is to a significant extent predetermined by the quality of the available intelligence.

 

Which shines a spot light on the elephant in the room.

 

Here are two questions deserving of consideration. I’m sure someone in Israel is either considering these questions or not doing their job:

 

Q1. Was the success of the (obscene) Hamas terrorist attack predicated on accurate Intelligence available to Hamas?

 

Q2. If so where did this accurate Intelligence come from and how did it make its way to Hamas?

 

 

 

 

Not a mystery, really. There were plenty of documents taken from captured and dead Hamas 'militants', so analyzing what they knew etc. didn't take too long.

 

A whole lot of the stuff had to do with watching what Israel does and how. Troop movements, shifts, number of troops and equipment. Much information could simply be researched on the internet - maps, satellite images, articles about units, bases, activity and so on. Specs of some military and surveillance systems weren't too hard to get as well. They employed small drones here and there, tried signal surveillance (mainly on tactical level), and attempted to contact soldiers on the internet (romance/sex scams etc.) for information.

 

There's a lot of talk on Israeli social media right now about lefty spies, collaborators and so on. This is mainly driven by Russian/Iranian bots, with enthusiastic cooperation from hardcore Netanyahu fans (his wife's spokeswoman will get the boot for that in a day or two, for example). In all probability, there was no major breach of security in this sense. At most, tidbits (which were surely helpful) and maybe some info from Palestinian workers in Israel and local  Bedouins.

 

The other angle, which is far more likely, would be Iranian aid. Iran intelligence services target Israel for years, and had some success, so there's certainly stuff they could share. Perhaps more sophisticated visual and signal intel. Not to forget input from Hezbollah, who's been planning and practicing for similar action.

 

There were some disturbing things they did on a tactical level, which implied some of the above - ambushing one chopper, and shooting it down (no casualties). They also knew better than to start running when attack choppers came, so weren't immediately identified as Hamas.

 

It's a 9/11 on this level as well.

18 minutes ago, Morch said:

Israel resumes water supply to southern Gaza after U.S. pressure

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/israel-resumes-water-supply-to-southern-gaza-after-us-pressure/ar-AA1ieW8g

 

Some reprieve, at least.

Thank you. Hope this is true. Next humane thing is to allow medical supplies which have reached a critical level and allow medical evacuation of the critically injured civilians and to stop the targeting of medical facilities, ambulances and medical personnel, as we have seen videos of bombed hospitals, destroyed ambulances and injured first responders.

 

Things will get really ugly once the troops move inside Gaza. 

15 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Not a mystery, really. There were plenty of documents taken from captured and dead Hamas 'militants', so analyzing what they knew etc. didn't take too long.

 

A whole lot of the stuff had to do with watching what Israel does and how. Troop movements, shifts, number of troops and equipment. Much information could simply be researched on the internet - maps, satellite images, articles about units, bases, activity and so on. Specs of some military and surveillance systems weren't too hard to get as well. They employed small drones here and there, tried signal surveillance (mainly on tactical level), and attempted to contact soldiers on the internet (romance/sex scams etc.) for information.

 

There's a lot of talk on Israeli social media right now about lefty spies, collaborators and so on. This is mainly driven by Russian/Iranian bots, with enthusiastic cooperation from hardcore Netanyahu fans (his wife's spokeswoman will get the boot for that in a day or two, for example). In all probability, there was no major breach of security in this sense. At most, tidbits (which were surely helpful) and maybe some info from Palestinian workers in Israel and local  Bedouins.

 

The other angle, which is far more likely, would be Iranian aid. Iran intelligence services target Israel for years, and had some success, so there's certainly stuff they could share. Perhaps more sophisticated visual and signal intel. Not to forget input from Hezbollah, who's been planning and practicing for similar action.

 

There were some disturbing things they did on a tactical level, which implied some of the above - ambushing one chopper, and shooting it down (no casualties). They also knew better than to start running when attack choppers came, so weren't immediately identified as Hamas.

 

It's a 9/11 on this level as well.

At the very least someone underestimated Hamas.

At worst they have access to very dangerous Intelligence.

The whole concept of ‘an iron dome’ and ‘secure borders’ has a gaping crack in it.

17 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

At the very least someone underestimated Hamas.

At worst they have access to very dangerous Intelligence.

The whole concept of ‘an iron dome’ and ‘secure borders’ has a gaping crack in it.

I think it's more the former than the latter. The information required to carry the attack did not require high level of security clearance. Most of the information was practically out there, or pretty easy to get. Still a security and intelligence flop, obviously.

 

There's something I forgot to add to the previous list. Long ago, a former USA Ambassador was asked how he got access to information during his tenure, and his reply was that whenever the need arose, he held a cocktail party. Israelis, especially politicians, talk. A lot. Think Trump.

 

Sorry, dog is restless - lost my train of thought..

 

The Iron Dome (and similar longer range systems) worked alright. It's a statistics game, and both side make constant modifications to overcome each other's efforts. If it was not in place, things would be worse.

 

The 'secure borders' thing, yes and no. It is almost an axiom that an army behind walls tends to get complacent. One Israeli Op-Ed framed it as 'everyone wants to be a hero, no one wants guard duty'. No one answer to that - walls are useful, but to a point. IMO, what took a hit was the notion that Hamas could be handled, pacified, reasoned with. Failure on strategic, tactical and political levels.

 

 

 

52 minutes ago, Danny Australia said:

Shameful on me to criticise the IDF? It's shameful and criminal behavior for the IDF to issue an evacuation order for 1.1 million human beings or risk being bombed. It seems you have no problem with such a threat to civilian population. They should not be given this criminal binary choice go away or die.

 

IDF is not issuing this criminal threat out of concern for Palestinian lives, far from it. They just want to move the entire population of Gaze closer to Egypt where they might be ending in a tent city in Sinai on the Egyptian side of the border as happened after 1796 and 1948 wars. 

 

Mass displacement of innocent civilians is a crime under international law which Israel does not give a toss about as long as the American master holds the Veto right. 

 

 

'Criminal' in your opinion, which is biased, uninformed, and doesn't carry all that much weight on its own. News flash, life is not simple - if it's an option between bombing a city full of civilians or urging them to evacuate, the latter may not be nice, the former could be a called a crime. Do you suppose the people of Gaza would prefer to stay and make your point for you? They voted on this already, heading south. Maybe in some perfect world, there are no such choices to be made. Let us know if you find it.

 

You have no idea into the motivations of the IDF - you're just making things up now. And so far, Egypt did not even open the border, so how would they get to that fabled tent city in the Sinai desert anyway?

 

You've already decided how things are, why they came about, and what the outcome would be - without presenting much by way of knowledge, common sense or objectivity.

42 minutes ago, Danny Australia said:

Thank you. Hope this is true. Next humane thing is to allow medical supplies which have reached a critical level and allow medical evacuation of the critically injured civilians and to stop the targeting of medical facilities, ambulances and medical personnel, as we have seen videos of bombed hospitals, destroyed ambulances and injured first responders.

 

Things will get really ugly once the troops move inside Gaza. 

Were 'medical facilities, ambulances and medical personnel' actually targeted? Or are you making this stuff up? Seems that for you anyone that gets hurt is 'targeted'.

1 hour ago, Danny Australia said:

 

 

Mass displacement of innocent civilians is a crime under international law which Israel does not give a toss about as long as the American master holds the Veto right. 

 

 

Two points.

 

1. You are exactly right. We hold the Veto right over your lot too.

 

2. There is virtually no difference between anti Israelism, Anti Semitism and anti Americanism. Thats why patriotic and informed Americans say Oooohrah Izzies, light those terrorists up.

48 minutes ago, Danny Australia said:

 

 

Things will get really ugly once the troops move inside Gaza. 

It's a means to an end.

 

9 hours ago, Danny Australia said:

You come across as not so smart troll and a bully with unambiguous Zionist views. I will reply not to convince the likes of you as it pointless, but for other members to enrich the debate.

 

Hamas rightly told Gazans to stay because it's their own land and relocation means another 'Nakba' (Arabic term means disaster when they had to flee a war zone thinking it's a temporarily measure but were never allowed back by Israel) as happened after the wars of 1948 and 1976

 

Palestinians prefer to stay in their own land and die for it, but most Israelis have a 'Spare' second nationality so they can 'leg it' when things get serious.

That’s quite a contorted distortion. Any time you want to off someone in the jihadi universe, blame Israel.

Israeli online news venues and social media are flooded with clips from Hamas helmet cams. A whole lot of images, a whole lot of talk. More importantly for the future, though - they keep filming each other. I bet that somewhere in Israel, and in the USA, the UK and a couple of EU countries, intel officers are hard at work matching names to faces.

 

 

Large barrage of rockets fired at Tel Aviv region as US senators give press conference

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/large-barrage-of-rockets-fired-at-tel-aviv-region-as-us-senators-give-press-conference/

 

Timing is everything.....

1 hour ago, Morch said:

Israeli online news venues and social media are flooded with clips from Hamas helmet cams. A whole lot of images, a whole lot of talk. More importantly for the future, though - they keep filming each other. I bet that somewhere in Israel, and in the USA, the UK and a couple of EU countries, intel officers are hard at work matching names to faces.

 

 

Officers? How bout that big machine with blinking lights in a cooled basement hurling petaflops around.

 

When I came in to the US last month, the Customs guy welcomed me back by name before he looked at my passport.  Took about 3 seconds from the time I stood in front of the camera to the greeting.

 

I would daresay that every Hamas Babykiller (terrorists is too manly a term) is known, IDed and on a list. 

There's a lot of anti-Muslim on this thread. 

It is coming from Americans, go figure. 

 

2 hours ago, Neeranam said:

There's a lot of anti-Muslim on this thread. 

It is coming from Americans, go figure. 

 

Go check out how they're doing in Sweden or Belgium.

6 hours ago, Yagoda said:

Two points.

 

1. You are exactly right. We hold the Veto right over your lot too.

 

2. There is virtually no difference between anti Israelism, Anti Semitism and anti Americanism. Thats why patriotic and informed Americans say Oooohrah Izzies, light those terrorists up.

There we go, finally someone is saying what he and many others think. Criticising Israel equates to anti-Semitism.

8 hours ago, Danny Australia said:

Thank you. Hope this is true. Next humane thing is to allow medical supplies which have reached a critical level and allow medical evacuation of the critically injured civilians and to stop the targeting of medical facilities, ambulances and medical personnel, as we have seen videos of bombed hospitals, destroyed ambulances and injured first responders.

 

Things will get really ugly once the troops move inside Gaza. 

Somewhat false humanitarian move. The damage to water pipes is one thing but without electricity  to power pumps .....?

Is Israel still preventing the exit of non Palestinians from Gaza ? Or by refusal creating a counter hostage scenario ?

8 hours ago, Morch said:

Israel resumes water supply to southern Gaza after U.S. pressure

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/israel-resumes-water-supply-to-southern-gaza-after-us-pressure/ar-AA1ieW8g

 

Some reprieve, at least.

Hopefully, these evacuees will see this concession for what it is.  Better than what Hamas has to offer by sheltering in place.  It would probably he helpful to provide food and other assistance, if possible, to remind them that besides showing compassion continued support of Hamas is self defeating.

2 minutes ago, RanongCat said:

Is Israel still preventing the exit of non Palestinians from Gaza ? Or by refusal creating a counter hostage scenario ?

After last week-ends terror attack, you can understand Israel not allowing Palestinians to enter into Israel

35 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

After last week-ends terror attack, you can understand Israel not allowing Palestinians to enter into Israel

That was not my question. Foreign Aid workers  and other etc  ? Many Consular questions over that issue.

1 hour ago, stevenl said:

There we go, finally someone is saying what he and many others think. Criticising Israel equates to anti-Semitism.

I didnt say that.

9 hours ago, Danny Australia said:

Shameful on me to criticise the IDF? It's shameful and criminal behavior for the IDF to issue an evacuation order for 1.1 million human beings or risk being bombed. It seems you have no problem with such a threat to civilian population. They should not be given this criminal binary choice go away or die.

 

IDF is not issuing this criminal threat out of concern for Palestinian lives, far from it. They just want to move the entire population of Gaze closer to Egypt where they might be ending in a tent city in Sinai on the Egyptian side of the border as happened after 1796 and 1948 wars. 

 

Mass displacement of innocent civilians is a crime under international law which Israel does not give a toss about as long as the American master holds the Veto right. 

 

 

No issue with you criticising the IDF Danny, they may well on occasions lose their professionalism and stoop to playing by the rules of engagement set out by Hamas on Saturday 7th October. (a somewhat moot point because after someone slits the throats of babies in their cots, there are obviously no rules at all)

 

My issue with you is your disgusting comment saying you support Hamas preventing innocent civilians from fleeing a war zone as advised by the IDF. Hamas want to keep them there to become sacrificial casualties in order to increase the number of dead civilians that Israel becomes responsible for. It is a vile and disgusting policy, and I am calling you out once again for supporting it. ...... shame on you 

31 minutes ago, Yagoda said:

I didnt say that.

In that case please explain what you wanted to say and convey.

8 hours ago, Yagoda said:

Officers? How bout that big machine with blinking lights in a cooled basement hurling petaflops around.

 

When I came in to the US last month, the Customs guy welcomed me back by name before he looked at my passport.  Took about 3 seconds from the time I stood in front of the camera to the greeting.

 

I would daresay that every Hamas Babykiller (terrorists is too manly a term) is known, IDed and on a list. 

Yeah, there's obviously some machine-work as well, but ultimately everything is re-checked by intelligence officers. Mind, even with Israel's extensive data bases on the Hamas, it unlikely they have good passport photos of each and every member.

 

Even when it comes to work permit carrying Palestinians entering Israel (before the attack), the entry process was not swift. 

 

3 hours ago, stevenl said:

There we go, finally someone is saying what he and many others think. Criticising Israel equates to anti-Semitism.

Not always, obviously. And sure, many times these allegations are off mark. But I think it will be dishonest to say that both sentiments often converge (certainly on related forum topics) - the question more to do with which was is the main thrust and which the underlying. I accept that constantly tossing it about is not constructive, not even to the benefit of those that insist on it. Denying or minimizing it, though? Nah.

2 hours ago, RanongCat said:

That was not my question. Foreign Aid workers  and other etc  ? Many Consular questions over that issue.

Israel worries Hamas leadership will use this as cover to escape.

Egypt doesn't want to seem as treating foreigners better than Palestinians. They are probably also worried that opening the pass for this will result in a mass stampede.