What do you think the impact of tax on foreign income will be on Pattaya?

[mran66]

10 hours ago, Danderman123 said:

One big thing everyone is overlooking: even if you don't owe anything, you will have to fill out a tax form to prove it. At that point, you are trapped in the tax system.

 

I am taking 2 precautionary measures right now, in the unlikely event that this is implemented in 2024:

 

1) Transferring in money from the US to my Thai bank before January 1.

 

2) I will spend the first 2 months of the year abroad. If this tax thing has crashed and burned by then, no problem. If it is still a threat after February 1, I will plan further trips overseas (out of Thailand).

 

Looks like two rubbers for extra safety! 

 

If you send enough this year to cover for expenses for next year, no need to limit stay next year as it is not about global tax liability, only to what is sent here. Nothing sent, no issue 

[Pattaya57]

2 hours ago, mran66 said:

If you send enough this year to cover for expenses for next year, no need to limit stay next year as it is not about global tax liability, only to what is sent here. Nothing sent, no issue 

Even if they do try to tax savings transfer, which should be negated by double tax agreements, you can still send 150,000 baht as this amount is tax free. 

 

People should now start living on 12,500 per month to avoid paying tax, or if you want to live it up you can pay 7500 tax on 300,000 to give you 25k per month 😉

[Danderman123]

7 hours ago, mran66 said:

 

Looks like two rubbers for extra safety! 

 

If you send enough this year to cover for expenses for next year, no need to limit stay next year as it is not about global tax liability, only to what is sent here. Nothing sent, no issue 

In the case of someone who resides in Thailand for more than 180 days, the government will demand a tax return, even if nothing is owed.

[Danderman123]

17 hours ago, BenStark said:

 

Really? Oh my god, and we all missed that new law that has been published somewhere.

 

I'm sure, since you seemingly have all the details, you can provide us with a link to the source where it was published, so we all can read up on it.

Not a new law, just a reinterpretation of existing law.

[Pattaya57]

15 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

In the case of someone who resides in Thailand for more than 180 days, the government will demand a tax return, even if nothing is owed.

Not true. Thailand tax law says no tax return required if assessable income < 120,000 baht per year.

 

And as I'm only remitting my savings from 10+ years ago, no assessable income so no tax return required

[Danderman123]

2 hours ago, Pattaya57 said:

Not true. Thailand tax law says no tax return required if assessable income < 120,000 baht per year.

 

And as I'm only remitting my savings from 10+ years ago, no assessable income so no tax return required

You don't get it.

 

Where this is going, no tax return, no visa renewal.

[BenStark]

2 hours ago, Pattaya57 said:

And as I'm only remitting my savings from 10+ years ago, no assessable income so no tax return required

How you gonna prove the money you transfer is from 10 year old savings, and not the pension deposited in your account last year?

[StayinThailand2much]

On 12/18/2023 at 5:00 PM, Villapete said:

I am curious as to how this will play out both for myself and for the local economy. My thoughts are that it will initially be a mess, followed by an economic dip, followed by a rejig of the plan. What are your thoughts?

 

It will heavily depend on the procedure. If worst-case-scenario, and really all transfers are taxed right after transfer, then, perhaps, all those Chinese and Russian condo buyers in Phuket and Pattaya will think twice about such investments. But we won't know till mid 2024 at the earliest.

Edited December 20, 2023 by StayinThailand2much

[Pattaya57]

55 minutes ago, BenStark said:

How you gonna prove the money you transfer is from 10 year old savings, and not the pension deposited in your account last year?

Well first off I'm not on a pension and 2nd I'll send from a 10+ year account that the money has been sitting there untouched

[deejai33]

4 hours ago, BenStark said:

How you gonna prove the money you transfer is from 10 year old savings, and not the pension deposited in your account last year?

My reading of the announcements by RD is that any type of money, pension, savings etc, that exists in a foreign account before 1st jan 2024 is untaxable.

 

A pension deposit from 2022 ( last year) would be untaxable.

 

As would pension deposited in december 2023. 

 

Its jan 2024 income that matters now.  To prove its pre-2024 income you simply have to keep a separate account with 2024 money in it.   And never 'pollute' it with new 2024 money.

 

Now we know, we can do that fairly easily, unless you need to try and open completely new bank accounts.

 

 

Edited December 20, 2023 by deejai33

[mran66]

10 hours ago, deejai33 said:

My reading of the announcements by RD is that any type of money, pension, savings etc, that exists in a foreign account before 1st jan 2024 is untaxable.

 

A pension deposit from 2022 ( last year) would be untaxable.

 

Where did you read such definition? 

 

In your understanding, a bitcoin I held since 5 years ago, and convert to thb at hefty profit in thb terms in 2024 (but with a thb value less than in Dec 31 2023) is not taxable for the thb profit as it is just 2023 money that I convert to some other currency? Currency trade profits are not taxable income? 

[Bobthegimp]

The following is from Canada's tax treaty with Thailand.  I suggest that people read their own country's tax treaty and work it out for themselves. 

 

There's no need for me to file a tax return in Thailand because my income is from a pension which can not be taxed by Thailand.  There's none of this "credit for taxes paid" crap that I keep reading in these threads.  Taxing my pension beyond what I've already paid would violate an international agreement.  

 

Edit to add:  The taxes paid in Canada are higher than what I would pay in Thailand.  Will the Thai government demand a tax return and issue me a refund cheque for overpayment of taxes?  

Edited December 22, 2023 by Bobthegimp

[Danderman123]

On 12/20/2023 at 10:35 AM, mran66 said:

 

Looks like two rubbers for extra safety! 

 

If you send enough this year to cover for expenses for next year, no need to limit stay next year as it is not about global tax liability, only to what is sent here. Nothing sent, no issue 

Nope.

 

Staying more than 179 days requires filing a tax return, even if nothing is owed.

 

However, this is the case now. Lots of tax residents in Pattaya never file a tax return, because, until this new regulation, nothing was owed. 

 

 

[Danderman123]

12 hours ago, Bobthegimp said:

The following is from Canada's tax treaty with Thailand.  I suggest that people read their own country's tax treaty and work it out for themselves. 

 

There's no need for me to file a tax return in Thailand because my income is from a pension which can not be taxed by Thailand.  There's none of this "credit for taxes paid" crap that I keep reading in these threads.  Taxing my pension beyond what I've already paid would violate an international agreement.  

 

Edit to add:  The taxes paid in Canada are higher than what I would pay in Thailand.  Will the Thai government demand a tax return and issue me a refund cheque for overpayment of taxes?  

What you are missing is that all tax residents are supposed to fill out a tax return, even if nothing is owed.

 

The reality is that most tax residents never bother with it - because nothing is owed.

 

But, if the RD finds you (for whatever reason), then you will have to provide the missing tax returns to document why you owe nothing. The reality is that RD will likely never find you.

[Danderman123]

90% of the posts here are about arguments to be made to RD if audited.

 

99% of tax residents will probably never have to make such arguments, since RD won't find them - unless provision of a tax return becomes a requirement of visa renewal.

 

[Expat68]

34 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

Nope.

 

Staying more than 179 days requires filing a tax return, even if nothing is owed.

 

However, this is the case now. Lots of tax residents in Pattaya never file a tax return, because, until this new regulation, nothing was owed. 

 

 

Each year I go to my local tax office (I have a tax I'd number) for the return of tax on my savings never once have I been asked to fill in a tax return 

[Danderman123]

1 minute ago, Expat68 said:

Each year I go to my local tax office (I have a tax I'd number) for the return of tax on my savings never once have I been asked to fill in a tax return 

What tax on your savings?

[Expat68]

1 minute ago, Danderman123 said:

What tax on your savings?

Tax on the interest 

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, Expat68 said:

Each year I go to my local tax office (I have a tax I'd number) for the return of tax on my savings never once have I been asked to fill in a tax return 

 

Presumably that's because the people at the RD complete the return for you, as they used to do for me.

 

2 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

What tax on your savings?

15% tax witheld on interest

[Expat68]

2 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

 

Presumably that's because the people at the RD complete the return for you, as they used to do for me.

 

15% tax witheld on interest

Doubt they fill a return in, each year they look at me with total confusion but get there in the end

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, Expat68 said:

Doubt they fill a return in, each year they look at me with total confusion but get there in the end

That my friend is the only way you will get your tax withholding back, is via a tax return, there is no other way.

[Expat68]

1 minute ago, Mike Lister said:

That my friend is the only way you will get your tax withholding back, is via a tax return, there is no other way.

If you say so, all I do is go to my bank, they fill in the form, I take to tax office. Bingo

[Mike Lister]

5 minutes ago, Expat68 said:

If you say so, all I do is go to my bank, they fill in the form, I take to tax office. Bingo

So magic then, do the RD ladies have a box of cash under their desk and do they pay you directly or do do you get a cheque in the mail?

 

The good people at the RD office have created a tax account for you online and entered the bank details you supplied, into the online tax reporting system. You completed a tax return except you never knew that. In future, knowing as you do now that you're completing a tax return, you may want to provide them with all of your income details, rather than just the part that earns you a refund, otherwise your your return is potentially fraudulent because you failed to report income.

Edited December 23, 2023 by Mike Lister

[Expat68]

10 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

So magic then, do the RD ladies have a box of cash under their desk and do they pay you directly or do do you get a cheque in the mail?

 

The good people at the RD office have created a tax account for you online and entered the bank details you supplied, into the online tax reporting system. You completed a tax return except you never knew that. In future, knowing as you do now that you're completing a tax return, you may want to provide them with all of your income details, rather than just the part that earns you a refund, otherwise your your return is potentially fraudulent because you failed to report income.

I am a qualified bookkeeper in my own country, so do not worry about me, I could probably save people a lot of money in Thailand 

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, Expat68 said:

I am a qualified bookkeeper in my own country, so do not worry about me, I could probably save people a lot of money in Thailand 

Great, it's just that you don't seem to know that you've filed a tax return and doubt that one was actually filed so I might pass on that kind offer!

[Expat68]

13 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Great, it's just that you don't seem to know that you've filed a tax return and doubt that one was actually filed so I might pass on that kind offer!

Not a problem. For the last 15 years I have filled a tax return in for myself and the wife, so this is what evidence I will be providing if it is needed

[Mike Lister]

Just now, Expat68 said:

Not a problem. For the last 15 years I have filled a tax return in for myself and the wife, so this is what evidence I will be providing if it is needed

A Thai tax return?

[Expat68]

7 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

A Thai tax return?

No UK. All my income is clearly stated on both my Thai wife's income and mine

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, Expat68 said:

No UK. All my income is clearly stated on both my Thai wife's income and mine

I'm going to leave it with you because none of what you have written makes any sense at all and I'm losing interest in trying to help. Let me just say that income that arises in Thailand must be reported on a Thai tax return and filing a UK return doesn't absolve you of that. Out, goodbye.

[deejai33]

On 12/21/2023 at 11:32 AM, mran66 said:

 

Where did you read such definition? 

 

In your understanding, a bitcoin I held since 5 years ago, and convert to thb at hefty profit in thb terms in 2024 (but with a thb value less than in Dec 31 2023) is not taxable for the thb profit as it is just 2023 money that I convert to some other currency? Currency trade profits are not taxable income? 

 

It's my interpretation of the Paw/162 clarification.   See attached image.  Was from Mazar's apparently.

 

Posted in the main thread on this tax issue.   It's only my interprettation.  Do you think I'm a bit too hopeful, mistaken ?    

 

It talks of rules on income from foreign sources and assets not apply to pre-2024 income.

 

In the bitcoin case, those assets existed pre-2024.    Similar to cash you had in a bank pre-2024.  I'm hoping that makes both the cash and bitcoins not liable to tax when transferred.

 

Maybe there's a gain made when converting bitcoins, and that occurs post 1-1-2024.   Is that what you think about ?  Similar to interest earned in 2024 on pre-2024 money.  I think the interest would be taxable.

 

Is one option to change the bitcoins to cash before 2024, and next day change the cash back to bitcoin ? So the gain was clearly made in 2023.   

 

I'm no expert.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 23, 2023 by deejai33