Interesting topic.

So yes, for me the bible also proves that God exists.

umm... so I guess there is now no need for faith ...

Interesting topic.

So yes, for me the bible also proves that God exists.

umm... so I guess there is now no need for faith ...

Well if you read my posts (not just on this topic) you'll see that I positively say you need faith. But faith cannot be the only reason for belief!

Interesting topic.

So yes, for me the bible also proves that God exists.

umm... so I guess there is now no need for faith ...

Well if you read my posts (not just on this topic) you'll see that I positively say you need faith. But faith cannot be the only reason for belief!

My point is if someone can prove to themselves that God exists, faith becomes unnecessary and even redundant....

You see, whenever I talk to friends who has religious beliefs, when I try to do some reasoning, when I try to make them look at reality, they get a bit annoyed and want to stop. They don't want to discuss it. They don't want to wake up from their dreams. And I don't want to hurt our relationship so I always stop. I really don't mind them having their beliefs.

Your posts are so patronising it's unreal. Just look at some of your wording - "They don't want to wake up from their dreams". What are you on?

Have a read from some of the other unbelievers in this thread, see how they (most of them) try to objectively reason their case and you might learn something!

If when you have your discussions with your believing friends you use language as you have in this post, I wouldn't blame them for not wanting to discuss it with you! Why should they!

"neither cast ye your pearls before swine" Matt 7.

If a non-believer used language like "wake up from your dreams", "you believe in fairy tales" and "pigs can fly", I wouldn't continue discussing it, it would be unfruitful! Ask yourself meemiathai, why are you so interested and why so 'evangelical' in your unbelief?

Wow..... I'm glad I read all that before I have a drink.

Tiggy, I admire your conviction, I really do. But Kerry holds the reality factor for me.

Yes Taddy, Kerryd spoke of many realities, an excellent post it was too! However, most of what he mentions is to do with man, and not God. As man has corrupted even the simplist of subjects for his own gain, greed, power, control, he has proven what God says about man.

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" Jer 17.9

Jesus own words from Mark 7 vv21-23 "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man."

It is almost unbelievable what we are capable of, and kerry's post speaks wonderfully of this.

Like I said earlier, human nature writ large! If we followed the basic tenant of "Love your neighbour as yourself" how could we have any of the corruptions mentioned?

ps Farangsay, thanks for the laugh. Of course dogs have a God, it's the same God I have. That was not my point you nit-picker you!

pps I am not going to contribute to the corruption of Catholicism, I was brought up a Catholic so I would just have too much to say, little of it good!

Ask yourself meemiathai, why are you so interested and why so 'evangelical' in your unbelief?

That's the part I don't understand. I don't believe as you do, but it doesn't bother me at all that's what you believe. I can even admire it, if that belief allows you to develop to your highest human potential. I can't knock your faith in things unseen. I too have faith in things I haven't seen much of. I believe "we hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal". I seldom see it, but I still believe it.

While I do not share your belief in God, I really do enjoy hearing from someone who has studied the matter in depth. I hope you will be more expansive in some of your responses, you needn't be if you so wish.

Ask yourself meemiathai, why are you so interested and why so 'evangelical' in your unbelief?

That's the part I don't understand. I don't believe as you do, but it doesn't bother me at all that's what you believe. I can even admire it, if that belief allows you to develop to your highest human potential. I can't knock your faith in things unseen. I too have faith in things I haven't seen much of. I believe "we hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal". I seldom see it, but I still believe it.

While I do not share your belief in God, I really do enjoy hearing from someone who has studied the matter in depth. I hope you will be more expansive in some of your responses, you needn't be if you so wish.

Nice post lannarebirth, respect due! I will be replying to a few other points in due course - I just don't have time right now.

I too have faith in things I haven't seen much of. I believe "we hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal". I seldom see it, but I still believe it.

Pretty much sums up the net content of my "religious" beliefs.....kudos lannarebirth.

McG

Seen as this is the thread for long posts, I have some info on herry's assertion that no detail exists on the exodus from Egypt.

Manetho is a recognised Egyptian historian. He lived in the 2nd/3rd century and wrote a detailed history of Egypt. Part of his work included dividing up Egyptian history into a series of dynasties. His work is widely quoted and respected and you can read more about him or his work on loads of websites. There’s a brief overview of who he was/what he did on this one which might do as a starting point... http://www.egyptologyonline.com/manetho.htm

Anyway, in relation to historical evidence for the Israelites (also called Hebrews) being slaves in Egypt/leaving suddenly, there’s quite a bit written out there. A lot of the lack of evidence appears to be linked to the dating of the scriptural account of the slavery in/exodus from Egypt. The problem seems to stem from the view that the Hebrew slaves built the cities of Pithom and Ramesses, and at first glance this seems to indicate a timing of around 13th century BC. That’s when Ramesses II was around and he was known for his big building projects! The Bible doesn’t seek to put an exact date on those events, but from the way the narrative is written it would appear to date it much earlier. As there’s no evidence at all for such events in Ramesses’ time, there’s a problem...

More recently (second half of the last century), Egyptology scholars have identified errors with some previously held views. In particular, they’ve revised views based on the much earlier building of a city called Avaris, which was later renamed Ramesses, after Ramesses...

If the Hebrews were involved with building the original city (and other projects at around the same time), then that would fit with Manetho’s evidence of, for example, “no fewer than 240,000 entire households with their possessions” who “left Egypt and traversed the desert to Syria”. The different timing would also then fit with a number of other Biblical story elements (including where the Pharoahs at the time were based, some of the plagues, etc).

You can take your pick of historians, Egyptologists, Biblical scholars, etc in deciding what to think or believe – but it’s really not accurate to say that there’s no evidence of the slavery/escape. It just depends on when/where you’re looking.

Wow..... I'm glad I read all that before I have a drink.

Tiggy, I admire your conviction, I really do. But Kerry holds the reality factor for me.

Yes Taddy, Kerryd spoke of many realities, an excellent post it was too! However, most of what he mentions is to do with man, and not God. As man has corrupted even the simplist of subjects for his own gain, greed, power, control, he has proven what God says about man.

Of that there is no doubt, I have never had a problem with noticing the inhumanity of man, understanding it is something different.

The part of Kerry's post that really points out the grim reality for me is when he mentions the things that have happened that are way beyond man's control. Take the Tsunami from a couple of years ago for example. Please tell me what God's reasoning for that was...... was it to teach a valuable lesson? a bit strong for that wasn't it ...... was it to take vengeance on a few unbelievers? with just an incey wincey bit of collateral damage....... entire families destroyed ..... for what, please tell me.

If it had been Pattaya, I could possibly see a link to other cities this 'vengeful God' has destroyed, but far too many innocent people have died in that event, and others over time for me to ever believe that there is a white bearded chap up there looking out for our best interests.

Tiggy, a book for you (the Bopper would like it too I think) it's a work of fiction by Heinlein again, and the title is 'Job' ...... please get a copy and read it, I would love to hear your analysis, positive or negative, I respect your opinions.

I believe "we hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal,,and that women are their superiors".

The youngest member is 21 and the oldest member is me at 45 - Add all ages together, divide by the number of members, the average is 33.4!

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Above 45 not allowed?

So many billions of believers, can they all be wrong ?

Yes !

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For most of recorded history science and religion were firmly in the same camp and I suspect that the first priests, witchdoctors et al were people who had the ability to predict the weather by counting the days between seasons.

I can imagine guys who were the caveman equivalent of nerds or geeks making themselves important to get a share of the best food and women reserved for hunters and warriors. Then oneday they got it wrong once to often, an early version of El Nino perhaps, and when the crops failed or the buffalo never turned up and they were being dragged off to the to the chopping block some genius cried out.... "It's not our fault, it's him/them up there, God/the Gods are angry!!"

This theory seems to be born out in the history of the Aztecs who's priests managed to convince them that only the sacrifice of the best warriors and athletes would appease the Gods. One way of keeping the competition down.

The medieval Christian clergy used fear of excommunication as a similar weapon enabling the Popes to virtually rule Europe for centuries.

I believe "we hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal,,and that women are their superiors only in matters pertaining to cleaning, cooking, and other similar duties.".

Ask yourself meemiathai, why are you so interested and why so 'evangelical' in your unbelief?

Indeed. You do come across a little as someone who has had a bitter experience with religion meemaithai, to be so adamant. That is easy to understand, if one feels let down by religion and/or faith.

Also, if you are quite argumentative in real life conversations regarding religion, rather than a more calm approach, then I think most people would be reluctant to carry on the discussion. Possibly the topic gets you heated, as it seems to here? Many people dont enjoy having an overly confrontational conversation.

Anyway, i think it is good to at least respect peoples choices in life, even if you dont understand them, if they are not harmful to ourselves or others. Maybe consider that.

While you do (if you do*), it seems I have some matters pertaining to cleaning, cooking, and other similar duties to be getting on with.

...in your dreams Grover!

I believe in Middle Earth, it is a real place with real people and the only way to get there is through a book and thus the mind of Tolkien. It does not exist in our world but it does have it's place. Now, maybe that makes me a crackpot, but if a though has the power to move someone to action it can't be discarded so easily.

Have you ever read 'Number Of The Beast' by Heinlein?

If not, I think you would enjoy it.

Sometimes I am so dense!! No, I have not read this or any of his works, but I have always had him on my must read one day. I just figured out that this is the same Heinlein that wrote Stranger In A Strange Land and Starship Troopers, and so on. Yeah, I really need to read his stuff.

Stranger In A Strange Land

I just want to add a few comments. Regarding the proof that there is a God,I think the fact that we can even ask that question proves there's a God. We have a capacity for abstract thought (which I believe is a gift from God) which makes us ponder these 'bigger' things. We alone in the animal kingdom ask ourselves the difficult questions like, why are we here? what happens when we die? This ability proves the existence of God.

I think the fact that we can even feel hunger prove's there's a God,

We have these sexual fantasies(which I believe is a gift from God) which makes us ponder those 'bigger' things,

We alone in the animal kingdom(sorry but dogs, cats, monkeys....all think, aren't we human beings being too arrogant?) ask ourselves the simple questions like, why are we sleepy? What happens when we eat too much? This ability proves the existence of God.

What have you and I actually proved by saying the above? Nothing.

You don't seem to believe in science, do you? Do you mind answering me the difference of the words "religious" and "superstitious"? Anyone here would like to discuss it step by step? I will try to be as polite as possible. I do not mean to offend anyone. But I must say I am just honest and direct and wouldn't mind point at something I think is stupid and saying it.

The same can be said to me and I won't be offended. I must admit that I started off looking a bit hostile coz I thought it would generate more response.

It does seem harmless for people to have freedom to have different beliefs regardless of how real those beliefs are. But I think in later discussions I might be able to point out otherwise. It is not exactly harmless. It creates sufferings which is why I even care to talk about it. You see it in daily life around the world sufferings created by religions, don't you, guys?

Now should we begin?

Stranger In A Strange Land

Now, I got to read it, if it has the seal of approval from Uly G!!

Cheers, man. What been shaking?

Ask yourself meemiathai, why are you so interested and why so 'evangelical' in your unbelief?

Indeed. You do come across a little as someone who has had a bitter experience with religion meemaithai, to be so adamant. That is easy to understand, if one feels let down by religion and/or faith.

Also, if you are quite argumentative in real life conversations regarding religion, rather than a more calm approach, then I think most people would be reluctant to carry on the discussion. Possibly the topic gets you heated, as it seems to here? Many people dont enjoy having an overly confrontational conversation.

Anyway, i think it is good to at least respect peoples choices in life, even if you dont understand them, if they are not harmful to ourselves or others. Maybe consider that.

While you do (if you do*), it seems I have some matters pertaining to cleaning, cooking, and other similar duties to be getting on with.

...in your dreams Grover!

No, eek , I have not had any bitter experience with religion at all. I feel very lucky of my life, I am more than capable of living myself a happy life. It is just that I want to see more people happy. It is just that I would like to see this world be more scientific and realistic.

Yes I seemed argumentative that is coz we are on the internet and it is not going to cost so much "face lost" as it would do in real life. I am very polite when face to face with my friends although sometimes sarcastic.

I used to think in my teens believing in the God which is mentioned in the bible is called "Religion" and the Chinese Gods I see people in HK worshipping is called "Superstition".

But nowadays the word "Religion" does not actually exist. It is all called "Superstition".

Do people think the 2 words should never co-exist in one person's mind? Logically?

I have a shrine in my living room which my wife prays to everyday. It does not bother me. We do live in harmony. But yes she is superstitious.

Stranger In A Strange Land

Now, I got to read it, if it has the seal of approval from Uly G!!

Cheers, man. What been shaking?

Hey thaibebop.

The newest Harry Potter is the best yet if you are into that at all.

Stranger In A Strange Land

Now, I got to read it, if it has the seal of approval from Uly G!!

Cheers, man. What been shaking?

Hey thaibebop.

The newest Harry Potter is the best yet if you are into that at all.

Waiting for it to show up in the mail.

Is Harry Potter fiction or non-fiction?

inhumanity of man, understanding it is something different.

Take the Tsunami from a couple of years ago for example. Please tell me what God's reasoning for that was...... was it to teach a valuable lesson? a bit strong for that wasn't it ...... was it to take vengeance on a few unbelievers? with just an incey wincey bit of collateral damage....... entire families destroyed ..... for what, please tell me.

Mans inhumanity to Man, is well documented and over the Millennia hard to comprehend in its total barbarity. The problem often lies in certain perceptions and mindset that it is all done in Gods Name.

Unfortunately, this is just an easy convenience, it is often for Power, Land or Personal Glory but substantiated for their Raison d'etre, to be for the protection of minority religions or the destruction of a contaminated religion.

As for the Tsunami, it is my thoughts that it was the by-product of a Living World, a Living World that is in constantly evolving and goes part in parcel with the Beauty of its environment. How many beautiful places have been created by the destruction of a previous oasis of beauty.

Mans humanity to Man is then constant proof as an antidote and counter-weight to the worst effects of Man and Nature.

Moss

Stranger In A Strange Land

Now, I got to read it, if it has the seal of approval from Uly G!!

Cheers, man. What been shaking?

Hey thaibebop.

The newest Harry Potter is the best yet if you are into that at all.

:D I wish I could download books.

Is Harry Potter fiction or non-fiction?

Dunno. It might just be superstition.

Reach out and touch faith

Your own personal Jesus

Someone to hear your prayers

Someone who cares

Your own personal Jesus

Someone to hear your prayers

Someone who's there

Feeling unknown

And you're all alone

Flesh and bone

By the telephone

Lift up the receiver

I'll make you a believer

Take second best

Put me to the test

Things on your chest

You need to confess

I will deliver

You know I'm a forgiver

Reach out and touch faith

Reach out and touch faith

Your own personal Jesus

Someone to hear your prayers

Someone who cares

Your own personal Jesus

Someone to hear your prayers

Someone who's there

Feeling unknown

And you're all alone

Flesh and bone

By the telephone

Lift up the receiver

I'll make you a believer

I will deliver

You know I'm a forgiver

Reach out and touch faith

Your own personal Jesus

Reach out and touch faith

OR

Don't go to church on Sunday

Don't get on my knees to pray

Don't memorize the books of the Bible

I got my own special way

But I know Jesus loves me

Maybe just a little bit more

I fall on my knees every Sunday

At Zerelda Lee's candy store

Well it's got to be a chocolate Jesus

Make me feel good inside

Got to be a chocolate Jesus

Keep me satisfied

Well I don't want no Abba Zabba

Don't want no Almond Joy

There ain't nothing better

Suitable for this boy

Well it's the only thing

That can pick me up

Better than a cup of gold

See only a chocolate Jesus

Can satisfy my soul

(Solo)

When the weather gets rough

And it's whiskey in the shade

It's best to wrap your savior

Up in cellophane

He flows like the big muddy

But that's ok

Pour him over ice cream

For a nice parfait

Well it's got to be a chocolate Jesus

Good enough for me

Got to be a chocolate Jesus

Good enough for me

Well it's got to be a chocolate Jesus

Make me feel good inside

Got to be a chocolate Jesus

Keep me satisfied

Kayo, if you're doing Depeche Mode on this thread (top band, BTW! Well done!! ), wouldn't "Blasphemous Rumours" be a nice contrast? Just a suggestion...

I'd forgotten about that song! Good call.

notew my updated sig... from " a pain that I'm used to"

been listening to a couple of albums I never knew I had in my music library