Mans inhumanity to Man, is well documented and over the Millennia hard to comprehend in its total barbarity. The problem often lies in certain perceptions and mindset that it is all done in Gods Name.

<snip>

As for the Tsunami, it is my thoughts that it was the by-product of a Living World, a Living World that is in constantly evolving and goes part in parcel with the Beauty of its environment.

Those two lines are probably the main basis for me believing what I believe.

Both Man and Mother Nature use God as a scapegoat (Man being the mouthpiece for Mother Nature, obviously) someone else to blame for atrocities committed and someone else to blame for natural disasters. If it is always 'God's Will' why isn't he stood on the top of a hill, holding a clip-board and shouting out instructions?

And there's another point, how does the Bible phrase it? "I refuse to prove that I exist, for without faith, I am nothing"

What about those well documented instances like the burning bush, having a quiet chat with Moses and informing Noah about an impending spell of inclement weather.

If they really happened does that not constitute proof of existence? ..... something he refuses to do.

1. God exists, but he's a little disingenuous in his statements.

2. God exists, but he will only talk directly with the top dogs and the rest of us just have to take their word for it.

3. God exists, but he really doesn't give a toss anymore.

4. It's all made up for the reasons of population control and a nice little security blanket.

I used to be in Stall 2, I am currently hovering between 3 and 4, the longer I live and the more I witness leads me to believe that I will eventually be firmly entrenched in Stall 4.

(looking out the window, checking for thunder clouds)

Interesting points, Thaddy. I remember reading a quote once (I think attributed to Sartre, but I can't be sure), which put into layman's terms, basically said "God cannot be all powerful & all good". The idea being He either allows bad things to happen because he can't do anything about them, or because He doesn't care. I used to subscribe to that, but now I think I'm in your Camp 4, Thaddy.

Strangely though, I have every respect (& even a type of wistfulness) for those who truly believe - anything. I wish I could believe something; I would imagine faith in something can be comforting.

I respectfully disagree, NR. I believe god or the gods who put us here gave us the ability to think and reason so we can make our own choices. They sit us there giggling at all the stupid things we do. When war, pestilence, oppression, hardships and the like befall us, they are tests. Of course, I hate to include genocide and the horrors of war, but that is what people often resort to for power and wealth.

I was just rereading some of my Japanese literary essays. My fav author there is Akutagawa Ryunosuke. You probably know his work from Kurosawa's movie Rashomon. The author came to the conclusion that brutality is a driving force in the world, largely stemming from the quest to survive. I think there is a kernel of this in all of us; we just have never had to use it. He also thought Jesus a romantic, as did Oscar Wilde, I think, and he described Christianity as a poetic religion full of ironies.

UG, I hate Harry Potter.

UG, I hate Harry Potter.

How many have you read?

The first one uses language more fit for imbeciles than adults, but the grade level keeps rising from there. I had to force myself to finish the first one, but started getting into the characters in number 2 and turned into a fan.

Number 7 is by far the best!

UG, I hate Harry Potter.

How many have you read?

The first one uses language more fit for imbeciles than adults, but the grade level keeps rising from there. I had to force myself to finish the first one, but started getting into the characters in number 2 and turned into a fan.

Number 7 is by far the best!

Movie #5 was a badly directed ripoff of Return of the Jedi

There are too many things going on in this thread, fab as it is, for me to answer all of them. However, I'll try to knit some of them together to try make a few points.

Some time ago I posted a thread about the Jews being God's chosen people and the reformation of Israel in 1948 being the fulfillment of God's word. I quoted all the chapter and verse and the thread generated many responses (as you can imagine).

Now this is not the point I want to make, but it's linked to it. I believe in the literal return of Jesus to the earth to rule the earth and to restore it to it's original Edenic state. However, this in itself is not the point I want to make either. It's regarding the state of the world as alluded to in Taddy's post above. While we wait for the return of Jesus the world will continue in the state it's in, "And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles..." Or to make it even bleaker, things will continue to get worse before they get better!

So Taddy's post could have had a point 5. God exists, he is a God of Love as he has always been. He has allowed mankind to prove itself a failure and will send Jesus to restore everything as he intended.

Now I did not include chapter and verse for any of this. If anyone would like me to, please let me know either by pm or here in this thread.

Okay, maybe one verse to finish Relelation 21.4 "He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

This speaks of the time after all is made good, the old order, this current order of things will be wiped away.

ps ooops inadvertantly quote Matt 24.6 above!

God exists, he is a God of Love as he has always been.

I believe this, but I sure don't see it in the Old or New Testament. The Christian God seems like a petty, jealous, vindictive bully.

That is why I have such a hard time believing in Christianity or organized religion in general.

God exists, he is a God of Love as he has always been.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Forgive them for they do not know.

There are too many things going on in this thread, fab as it is, for me to answer all of them. However, I'll try to knit some of them together to try make a few points.

Some time ago I posted a thread about the Jews being God's chosen people and the reformation of Israel in 1948 being the fulfillment of God's word. I quoted all the chapter and verse and the thread generated many responses (as you can imagine).

Now this is not the point I want to make, but it's linked to it. I believe in the literal return of Jesus to the earth to rule the earth and to restore it to it's original Edenic state. However, this in itself is not the point I want to make either. It's regarding the state of the world as alluded to in Taddy's post above. While we wait for the return of Jesus the world will continue in the state it's in, "And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles..." Or to make it even bleaker, things will continue to get worse before they get better!

So Taddy's post could have had a point 5. God exists, he is a God of Love as he has always been. He has allowed mankind to prove itself a failure and will send Jesus to restore everything as he intended.

Now I did not include chapter and verse for any of this. If anyone would like me to, please let me know either by pm or here in this thread.

Okay, maybe one verse to finish Relelation 21.4 "He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

This speaks of the time after all is made good, the old order, this current order of things will be wiped away.

ps ooops inadvertantly quote Matt 24.6 above!

Ok, you believe in what you believe. I'll believe in mine. Harmony

I personally don't believe this tosh about Jesus returning to earth.

What I do believe was intended to be understood, is that Jesus, like many a so-called prophet, was a regular bloke, who happened to be a GOOD PERSON.

And he - like many - showed others that it is possible to live as a GOOD person. Yes, you will get flack from others and yes, you will have to endure hardships and suffering, but nonetheless, that shouldn't detract you from being a good person.

And I believe this lark about Jesus returning was misinterpreted.

I think it should have been: Others will come and go, other GOOD People.

Ghandi was one of them. Just a regular guy, but with a genuine heartfelt desire to be a GOOD person.

*I ain't getting started on the Jews.

I personally don't believe this tosh about Jesus returning to earth.

What I do believe was intended to be understood, is that Jesus, like many a so-called prophet, was a regular bloke, who happened to be a GOOD PERSON.

And he - like many - showed others that it is possible to live as a GOOD person. Yes, you will get flack from others and yes, you will have to endure hardships and suffering, but nonetheless, that shouldn't detract you from being a good person.

And I believe this lark about Jesus returning was misinterpreted.

I think it should have been: Others will come and go, other GOOD People.

Ghandi was one of them. Just a regular guy, but with a genuine heartfelt desire to be a GOOD person.

*I ain't getting started on the Jews.

I like this post.

I do hope more people can act like him. I mean them.

them? Not that more should be like me?

So Taddy's post could have had a point 5. God exists, he is a God of Love as he has always been. He has allowed mankind to prove itself a failure and will send Jesus to restore everything as he intended.

Sorry Tiggy, but with the state of the world today, the rapture looks like it could precede the second coming.

So Taddy's post could have had a point 5. God exists, he is a God of Love as he has always been. He has allowed mankind to prove itself a failure and will send Jesus to restore everything as he intended.

Sorry Tiggy, but with the state of the world today, the rapture looks like it could precede the second coming.

That depends on how one interprets 'the rapture'! There are many who hold unscriptural views. In fact the word 'rapture' does not occur within scripture! And I think it's always worrying when people put such store by words which don't occur within the word of God. Surely everything must be held within its pages!

Alright Tiggy.

Let me throw this one at you:

Let's forget for a mo the existence of God. Let's just say he/HE exists, period.

Okay, so for debates sake, we agree He exists.

What's to say the Bible is His word?

Not just a collection of ramblings and stories from people of the times past.

And, second point:

For many centuries, only Priests/preachers had access to the writings. What's to say that monks busily scribbling copies in monasteries in the Pyrenees or the Alps didn't alter some of said stories, a la chinese whispers, during the centuries before the printing Press?

Just to - ya know - keep your mind off things.

BTW - I'm sending you one of my fav songs - for no reason - totally unrelated to this - other than I am listening to it and it's really sweet and I think you might like it and it happened to come on my random playlist just now./

I personally don't believe this tosh about Jesus returning to earth.

Ah kayo, why the word 'tosh' that's disrespectful. And that's just not like you!

Alright Tiggy.

Let me throw this one at you:

Let's forget for a mo the existence of God. Let's just say he/HE exists, period.

Okay, so for debates sake, we agree He exists.

What's to say the Bible is His word?

Not just a collection of ramblings and stories from people of the times past.

And, second point:

For many centuries, only Priests/preachers had access to the writings. What's to say that monks busily scribbling copies in monasteries in the Pyrenees or the Alps didn't alter some of said stories, a la chinese whispers, during the centuries before the printing Press?

Just to - ya know - keep your mind off things.

BTW - I'm sending you one of my fav songs - for no reason - totally unrelated to this - other than I am listening to it and it's really sweet and I think you might like it and it happened to come on my random playlist just now./

First point first. You have to read it and study it to really appreciate that it's God's Word. there's loads of concrete evidence that we have reliable versions of what existed 1000's of years ago. For example, the septuagint, the version available in Jesus day, we know from historical documentation, is as it was in the time of Jesus, and he quoted it all the time.

Second point second. Although through various generations the 'word' wasn't made available to the common people (the dark ages), there were always common people who had the word available. Scripture has made it plain that there will always be a faithful remnant! And I believe there always has been! Also, regarding versions in translation, we have enough historic evidence to verify the veracity of scripture. It really comes down to how people have interpreted scripture over the years. In othere words, the scripture can be proven to be consistant, it's man's interference, and subsequent doctrine, that has made it inconsistant!

Just on a trivia point. The ancient scribes didn't just read back what they'd written. Hebrew (and Greek) is a numerical language, in other words each letter has a numeric value. So after transcribing the words they would then do a numerical transcription. A further check of the veracity and correctness!

So to paraphrase. It's never the scripture that's at fault, it's man interpretation (and corruption) and subsequent doctrine which causes problems! I have attended many debates regading the veracity of scripture and the results are always the same: viz, man's corruption of what is a 'simple' message.

def. agree that it's man's interpretation (and subseq. doctrine) that is usually the root of probs.

And I stand counter debated on the points made with not enough knowledge to counter.

Although through various generations the 'word' wasn't made available to the common people (the dark ages), there were always common people who had the word available.

Intentional leak of information, and like all intentional leaks, only the information deemed necessary. What about all the missing gospels that have only recently come to light, have they always been available to the common people? ...... I think not.

Also, regarding versions in translation, we have enough historic evidence to verify the veracity of scripture. It really comes down to how people have interpreted scripture over the years.

But isn't the Hebrew word for 'virgin' the same as 'young girl'. Is that then just only open to interpretation or could it be a fundamental (and intentional) error in translation.

are you feeling biblical or horny, Thaddy?

Well, if the saying 'horny little devil' is anything to go by..then its quite possible he is feeling both.

Although through various generations the 'word' wasn't made available to the common people (the dark ages), there were always common people who had the word available.

Intentional leak of information, and like all intentional leaks, only the information deemed necessary. What about all the missing gospels that have only recently come to light, have they always been available to the common people? ...... I think not.

Well Taddy, this is an interesting one. Not the leaks - that makes no sense! However, the so called gospels. I could write a gospel tomorow, call it the gospel of Bob and somebody out there would be willing to use it saying, what about the Gospel of Bob?

I have read excerpts from various other Gospel and they did not read like scripture, full of unnecessary stories that added nothing to the original. It's like the book of Mormon, if you have a knowledge of scripture ir just doesn't read right. It's like someone sat down and tried to write something. I have not read every gnostic writing, but those I have read failed miserably.

Also, regarding versions in translation, we have enough historic evidence to verify the veracity of scripture. It really comes down to how people have interpreted scripture over the years.

But isn't the Hebrew word for 'virgin' the same as 'young girl'. Is that then just only open to interpretation or could it be a fundamental (and intentional) error in translation.

Sorry mate, I heard this one years ago and checked it out. The Hebrew word for virgin - the one that's quoted of Mary in the NT - is only used in the OT 7 times, 5 of those times it's translated virgin, 1 time as 'maid' and one time as 'damsel'. This of course proves nothing. However, the context of Isa 7.14 "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son..."

I would hardly be a sign if it was just a girl giving birth to a child, would it?

It's interesting that people are less likely to pick up on the word 'satan' which simply means adversary or opponant. It can (and is) any person, place or thing which is being an adversary to you! Not a proper name at all, should never have a capital 'S'! I think this one is a fundamental and intentional error of translation to bend scripture around their already formed doctrine of the Devil.

I'm highly religious. But then again I also believe I am God.

Although through various generations the 'word' wasn't made available to the common people (the dark ages), there were always common people who had the word available.

Intentional leak of information, and like all intentional leaks, only the information deemed necessary. What about all the missing gospels that have only recently come to light, have they always been available to the common people? ...... I think not.

Well Taddy, this is an interesting one. Not the leaks - that makes no sense! However, the so called gospels. I could write a gospel tomorow, call it the gospel of Bob and somebody out there would be willing to use it saying, what about the Gospel of Bob?

I have read excerpts from various other Gospel and they did not read like scripture, full of unnecessary stories that added nothing to the original. It's like the book of Mormon, if you have a knowledge of scripture ir just doesn't read right. It's like someone sat down and tried to write something. I have not read every gnostic writing, but those I have read failed miserably.

Wouldn't wash.

I know your real name.

Also, regarding versions in translation, we have enough historic evidence to verify the veracity of scripture. It really comes down to how people have interpreted scripture over the years.

But isn't the Hebrew word for 'virgin' the same as 'young girl'. Is that then just only open to interpretation or could it be a fundamental (and intentional) error in translation.

Sorry mate, I heard this one years ago and checked it out. The Hebrew word for virgin - the one that's quoted of Mary in the NT - is only used in the OT 7 times, 5 of those times it's translated virgin, 1 time as 'maid' and one time as 'damsel'. This of course proves nothing. However, the context of Isa 7.14 "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son..."

I would hardly be a sign if it was just a girl giving birth to a child, would it?

It's interesting that people are less likely to pick up on the word 'satan' which simply means adversary or opponant. It can (and is) any person, place or thing which is being an adversary to you! Not a proper name at all, should never have a capital 'S'! I think this one is a fundamental and intentional error of translation to bend scripture around their already formed doctrine of the Devil.

I didn't know that about Satan. satan.

Having said that, I was once told or I had heard somewhere, that the devil could be seen as a way of describing your own personal obstacles, mental or physical - so I suppose that's pretty much the same thing.

I'm highly religious. But then again I also believe I am God.

I believe in you TAWP. I do I do I really weally do!

I just thought you were the Devil.

People in China can't even know about the truth of what happened in Tiannaman Square in 1989. The Japanese are rewriting history books regarding world war II. But people expect what was written 2000 years ago when people then probably believed in vampires and warewolves, to be exact? Sorry I can't resist.

Why did God send a farang, not a chinese? Is our God biased? Does he care about chinese people, indians or .....?

Is God in charge of this planet earth only? Or does he has other planets to take care of?

Which God is real? The chinese ones? Islamic one or ....?

Does God get bored playing with 6 billion lives? Are other animals taken care of by god?

Also, regarding versions in translation, we have enough historic evidence to verify the veracity of scripture. It really comes down to how people have interpreted scripture over the years.

But isn't the Hebrew word for 'virgin' the same as 'young girl'. Is that then just only open to interpretation or could it be a fundamental (and intentional) error in translation.

Sorry mate, I heard this one years ago and checked it out. The Hebrew word for virgin - the one that's quoted of Mary in the NT - is only used in the OT 7 times, 5 of those times it's translated virgin, 1 time as 'maid' and one time as 'damsel'. This of course proves nothing. However, the context of Isa 7.14 "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son..."

I would hardly be a sign if it was just a girl giving birth to a child, would it?

Well actually, yes it would....... Damsel or Maid are the same word as Virgin, you say that it has only been mis-translated twice.... that's two times more than enough for me.

Imagine the scene, young carpenter needs to return to his home town to vote, his betrothed (ie not yet married) is heavy with child, carrying a child out of wedlock was a stoning offence......... so, God did it.

It's interesting that people are less likely to pick up on the word 'satan' which simply means adversary or opponant. It can (and is) any person, place or thing which is being an adversary to you! Not a proper name at all, should never have a capital 'S'! I think this one is a fundamental and intentional error of translation to bend scripture around their already formed doctrine of the Devil.

I agree, that isn't an error in translation, there is a little bit of satan (small s) within all of us..... isn't that what the lessons of Jesus are all about, every man has the capacity for good, but we also contain the opposite.... some have 'good' in abundance and the dark side doesn't have the chance to surface, some are the total opposite, but most are in-between and it is a constant struggle to 'do the right thing'

For example..... next door to the falang meeting place is a shop, owned by a Chinese lady (that isn't important) she has a son, a small boy aged about 5 years, he squeals like a girl (I have tinnitus, this is important) when he starts to screech it is really painful for me and I get visual images of me 'rendering him asunder'

I haven't done it yet, the chances of me doing it in the future are zero, I keep my 'satan' under control.

My code

My life

My beliefs

My choice

As I said a few posts back, I admire you Tiggy for your faith, I admire you for the strength you hold in you convictions, I however can't.

Well, if the saying 'horny little devil' is anything to go by..then its quite possible he is feeling both.

Dag nabbit .... sussed ... I'm permanently horny, I've tried filing them down, but they grow back

Why did God send a farang, not a chinese? Is our God biased? Does he care about chinese people, indians or .....?

Be prepared for a couple of others to pick on the main error of that statement.

Thanks for reminding me, guys and gals...

My personal god:

Depeche Mode

Violator

(listening to it now....)

McG