Different wills in 2 different countries

[Pappap]

Hi, has anyone experience of having two separate and different wills in two countries, i.e. one in Thailand and one in the UK. Seems this would be easier for the relevant executors/administrators in each country, one dealing with each country. Thanks.

Edited January 5 by Pappap

[Mike Lister]

5 minutes ago, Pappap said:

Hi, has anyone experience of having two separate and different wills in two countries, i.e. one in Thailand and one in the UK. Seems this would be easier for the relevant executors/administrators in each country, one dealing with each country. Thanks.

Yes, most expats I think have two wills, one for their home country assets and one for Thailand, that is what I have always had and from the many discussions over the years on social media, it is everyone's preferred way forward. It means two probates and two executors but since the laws are very different in any two countries, it's by far the safest and quickest way to go.

[bkk6060]

Interesting my experience is Expats mostly have no wills.  Buying condos and cars several bank accounts with no plans when they pass. They actually think their embassy will take care of things.

Best to have 2 I believe and I had mine drawn up by a reputable lawyer in both places.

[ozimoron]

It's called a "last" will and testament.

[mfd101]

Everything I bought in Thailand when we decided to migrate from Oz in 2015 - land, new house, car - I made out in my b/f's name. The only 'property' I own here of any value (to me) is my books.

 

The only cash flow is mine & it comes from Oz.

 

No sweat.

Edited January 5 by mfd101

[Lacessit]

15 minutes ago, Pappap said:

Hi, has anyone experience of having two separate and different wills in two countries, i.e. one in Thailand and one in the UK. Seems this would be easier for the relevant executors/administrators in each country, one dealing with each country. Thanks.

I have two wills, one done in Thailand, one done in Australia. They are not different, because they both say the same thing, in Thai and English.

Any assets in Australia will go to my son, he is the executor there. Any assets in Thailand will go to my GF, she is the executor here.

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

I have two wills, one done in Thailand, one done in Australia. They are not different, because they both say the same thing, in Thai and English.

Any assets in Australia will go to my son, he is the executor there. Any assets in Thailand will go to my GF, she is the executor here.

I can think of a couple of things that should be different.

 

1) This will governs my assets in X (or Y) only whilst my Y will governs my assets in that country. You have to specific the boundaries of the will and which assets it covers.

 

2) Wills are governed by the laws of that country and you need to specify which sets of laws that is. You can't for example say that your Thai will is governed by the laws of Australia because Thai probate court wont sanction the will.

 

3) If you make changes to one will you must cancel it and be certain to cancel just the one and not inadvertently cancel both.

 

4) having the same Executor manage two probate court cases in two different countries, may be problematic, I would have thought wo executors would be easier.

 

 

 

[Lacessit]

2 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I can think of a couple of things that should be different.

 

1) This will governs my assets in X (or Y) only whilst my Y will governs my assets in that country. You have to specific the boundaries of the will and which assets it covers.

 

2) Wills are governed by the laws of that country and you need to specify which sets of laws that is. You can't for example say that your Thai will is governed by the laws of Australia because Thai probate court wont sanction the will.

 

3) If you make changes to one will you must cancel it and be certain to cancel just the one and not inadvertently cancel both.

 

4) having the same Executor manage two probate court cases in two different countries, may be problematic, I would have thought wo executors would be easier.

 

 

 

Understood.

Did you read my post in full? There ARE two executors.

[Stocky]

I have three seperate Wills, for assets in the UK, Thailand and Singapore. Each Will clearly states its purpose is for the disposition of assets in that country only.

[Pappap]

Thanks, seems the answer is two totally separate wills in both countries, different executors and update in each country if necessary. Those who have done this are the other countries/lawyers/executors notified of the other will? Thanks for all the answers.

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, Pappap said:

Thanks, seems the answer is two totally separate wills in both countries, different executors and update in each country if necessary. Those who have done this are the other countries/lawyers/executors notified of the other will? Thanks for all the answers.

Each will should acknowledge the existence of the other, that's as far as it need to go.

[Pappap]

25 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Each will should acknowledge the existence of the other, that's as far as it need to go.

Thanks, can now get all sorted...:-)

[jimn]

Of course. Where there's a will there's a way.

[fceligoj]

I think if you check the legal ramifications of a single will, you will elect to have separate wills in your home country and one here in Thailand.  In the US, probate does not cross country borders.

[skorts]

I have separate Wills in Thailand and the U.K. drawn up by lawyers in each country. The following clauses were included:

 

1. Thai Will

 

I REVOKE all previous Wills and Testamentary Dispositions.

 

I HEREBY declare that I have another Will made for my properties in the United Kingdom which I declare shall remain in force and will not be revoked by this Will.

 

2. U.K. Will

 

I revoke all earlier Wills and testamentary except my Will disposing of my assets in Thailand. 
 

Both Thai and U.K. lawyers know of the other country’s Wills and have each others contact details so they can notify the other on death  

Edited January 6 by skorts

[prakhonchai nick]

On the same broad topic, A Scottish Will does not become null and void upon marriage, as do Thai and English Wills. If there is only 1 "universal  WILL" and marriage to a Thai took place after the Will was drawn up, would Thai Laws after the drawing up of the Will nullify the Will here in Thailand, effectively declaring the deceased died intestate?

Edited January 6 by prakhonchai nick

[khunPer]

On 1/5/2024 at 12:24 PM, Pappap said:

Hi, has anyone experience of having two separate and different wills in two countries, i.e. one in Thailand and one in the UK. Seems this would be easier for the relevant executors/administrators in each country, one dealing with each country. Thanks.

Yes, and that is advised by the Thai lawyers that wrote the book "Thai Law For Foreigners". Make one will in Thailand for one's belongings in Thailand, following the Thai law and custom; and another will for belongings in one's home country following the law and customs there. However, be aware of that it's a court in the country where you have your primary home (lives), which will handle the estate of both wills, no matter where you die.

I made two will, one in Thailand and another in m y home country. I wrote in both that there is another will covering assets in the other country.

[RocketDog]

On 1/5/2024 at 6:31 PM, Mike Lister said:

Yes, most expats I think have two wills, one for their home country assets and one for Thailand, that is what I have always had and from the many discussions over the years on social media, it is everyone's preferred way forward. It means two probates and two executors but since the laws are very different in any two countries, it's by far the safest and quickest way to go.

Agreed. I've had both USA and Thai wills for several years. Be sure to update them when necessary.

[topt]

On 1/6/2024 at 6:32 PM, khunPer said:

However, be aware of that it's a court in the country where you have your primary home (lives), which will handle the estate of both wills, no matter where you die.

Do you have a link for that as it seems surprising to me unless I have misunderstood you?

 

Surely the point of having more than one will is that it would be probated in the country to which it applies?

For example I have had to write a third will for the Isle of Man as they handle probate separately from the UK. I don't think a Thai court is going to deal with my estate in other jurisdictions either.....

[khunPer]

22 hours ago, topt said:

Do you have a link for that as it seems surprising to me unless I have misunderstood you?

 

Surely the point of having more than one will is that it would be probated in the country to which it applies?

For example I have had to write a third will for the Isle of Man as they handle probate separately from the UK. I don't think a Thai court is going to deal with my estate in other jurisdictions either.....

My source is a Danish lawyer that are expert in Thai law, and the Danish government (link below). I was also surprised, but if you think about it, it makes sense. You can only have residence in one country – i.e. the country where you spend most of your time – and that country will handle the estate. It's not the country that one dies in that handles the estate, but the country of domicile; if you are on holiday in Thailand, but domiciled in UK, your estate will be handled in UK. If you for example have dual citizenship, it's the country of residence that handles the estate.

 

However, there are exceptions, such as non moveable real estate, which will be handled by the rules of the country, where the real estate is. A foreigner can for example inherit Thai land from a Thai spouse, but cannot own the land – i.e., needs to sell or transfer the land within a certain period – even if the spouse lives and die in another country, where real estate can be inherited...
"The rules for inheritance and probate differ from country to country. In some countries, the switch takes place in the country where the values are located. This applies regardless of where the deceased lived. Real estate often has to be exchanged in the country where the property is located." (Source link below.)

 

Inheritance can be complex, but in general, this is the principle. If you leave UK and settle in Thailand, then Thailand is your country of residence. Some countries might not acknowledge wills from other countries – again, think of for example real estate – which is why lawyers recommend to make separate wills for assets in separate countries. Different countries have different national rules, so you might be able to apply for an estate to be handled by country of citizenship, instead of country of residence.

Country of residence can de be defined by...

• Where the person themselves or the person's household have their permanent home
• Where a person's belongings are usually located
• Where the person resides when the person is not temporarily residing elsewhere (e.g. due to vacation, study or business trip, illness or imprisonment)

Link to Danish governmental source (you can use browser og Google translate) HERE.

[Mike Lister]

40 minutes ago, khunPer said:

My source is a Danish lawyer that are expert in Thai law, and the Danish government (link below). I was also surprised, but if you think about it, it makes sense. You can only have residence in one country – i.e. the country where you spend most of your time – and that country will handle the estate. It's not the country that one dies in that handles the estate, but the country of domicile; if you are on holiday in Thailand, but domiciled in UK, your estate will be handled in UK. If you for example have dual citizenship, it's the country of residence that handles the estate.

 

However, there are exceptions, such as non moveable real estate, which will be handled by the rules of the country, where the real estate is. A foreigner can for example inherit Thai land from a Thai spouse, but cannot own the land – i.e., needs to sell or transfer the land within a certain period – even if the spouse lives and die in another country, where real estate can be inherited...
"The rules for inheritance and probate differ from country to country. In some countries, the switch takes place in the country where the values are located. This applies regardless of where the deceased lived. Real estate often has to be exchanged in the country where the property is located." (Source link below.)

 

Inheritance can be complex, but in general, this is the principle. If you leave UK and settle in Thailand, then Thailand is your country of residence. Some countries might not acknowledge wills from other countries – again, think of for example real estate – which is why lawyers recommend to make separate wills for assets in separate countries. Different countries have different national rules, so you might be able to apply for an estate to be handled by country of citizenship, instead of country of residence.

Country of residence can de be defined by...

• Where the person themselves or the person's household have their permanent home
• Where a person's belongings are usually located
• Where the person resides when the person is not temporarily residing elsewhere (e.g. due to vacation, study or business trip, illness or imprisonment)

Link to Danish governmental source (you can use browser og Google translate) HERE.

In the case of a British subject living in Thailand: that person will most often have two wills, one for Thai assets and one covering UK assets. Each will have its own probate and be independently probated. My niece if head of family law for a midlands law firm and she is the executrix for my UK will, she prepared the will and has custody of it. I am UK domiciled, despite living here in Thailand for over 20 years. Domicile is extremely difficult to change, there are three different types, domicile of origin, domicile of choice and domicile of dependence, the link below explains. My domicile of  origin is the UK, this cannot be changed. My domicile of dependence is the UK because that is where my assets arise and where I own property. My domicile of choice is Thailand where I also have assets and a wife  hence I am domiciled in two countries, at different levels. Residency is a different matter entirely. But there will not be a single probate for both my UK and Thai estates, this has been confirmed to me by Thai lawyers and of course my niece. So I think there's some crossed wires somewhere in your story, Kuhn Sumalee in Chiang Mai is a Barrister and one of the top lawyers in the North, I would trust those two legal views over any other I have ever come across.

 

https://www.litrg.org.uk/tax-guides/migrants/residence-and-domicile/where-am-i-domiciled

[KannikaP]

On 1/5/2024 at 6:42 PM, ozimoron said:

It's called a "last" will and testament.

Until you decide to change it!   555

[scottiejohn]

3 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Kuhn Sumalee in Chiang Mai is a Barrister and one of the top lawyers in the North, I would trust those two legal views over any other I have ever come across.

Totally agree!

An amazing person who I was my lawyer and both personal and business advisor for over 20 years!

 

[scottiejohn]

2 minutes ago, KannikaP said:

Until you decide to change it!   555

And hope you can do so annually for many years to come!  555

 

PS;  As a Scotsman I am assuming of course that there are no costs involved in the rewrites!

Edited January 10 by scottiejohn
PS added.

[khunPer]

2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

In the case of a British subject living in Thailand: that person will most often have two wills, one for Thai assets and one covering UK assets. Each will have its own probate and be independently probated. My niece if head of family law for a midlands law firm and she is the executrix for my UK will, she prepared the will and has custody of it. I am UK domiciled, despite living here in Thailand for over 20 years. Domicile is extremely difficult to change, there are three different types, domicile of origin, domicile of choice and domicile of dependence, the link below explains. My domicile of  origin is the UK, this cannot be changed. My domicile of dependence is the UK because that is where my assets arise and where I own property. My domicile of choice is Thailand where I also have assets and a wife  hence I am domiciled in two countries, at different levels. Residency is a different matter entirely. But there will not be a single probate for both my UK and Thai estates, this has been confirmed to me by Thai lawyers and of course my niece. So I think there's some crossed wires somewhere in your story, Kuhn Sumalee in Chiang Mai is a Barrister and one of the top lawyers in the North, I would trust those two legal views over any other I have ever come across.

 

https://www.litrg.org.uk/tax-guides/migrants/residence-and-domicile/where-am-i-domiciled

As I wrote, it is depending of you nationality and different laws in different countries; inheritance is not simple. That is why to last wills can be very important, as advised by Thai lawyers.

I believe my government and the law more than a lawyer, and my government says clearly: "When a person dies, it is the authorities of the country where the deceased was resident that handles the estate."