New tax era in Thailand begins as Revenue now shares data with 138 countries within the OECD

[lordgrinz]

3 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Can I just make an observation on what you wrote? It seems like two extremes to build a house here yet refuse to live here for more than 180 days per year, and, withdraw money from offshore accounts using an ATM! My advice to you is to wait and see what the RD has to say in the coming months because I don't believe the outcome will be nearly as bad as some people think. Thailand wants the money that foreigners bring into the country, more than it needs the 5% or 10% tax that it could earn from taxing transfers.

 

Which is what I think anyone with knowledge of this change has done already, they would've brought in enough money to make it through this first year of the change without anymore transfers needed, or planned. Then by early next year, I am sure RD and Immigration will have enough information out that we can all make a decision on our next move. That is what I did, though I wish I brought in just a little bit more than I did. I'm still surprised they aren't just taxing us on all our worldwide income, and instead are focusing on remittance only, which makes things way more difficult.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

On 1/12/2024 at 8:59 AM, lordgrinz said:

Which is what I think anyone with knowledge of this change has done already, they would've brought in enough money to make it through this first year of the change without anymore transfers needed, or planned. Then by early next year, I am sure RD and Immigration will have enough information out that we can all make a decision on our next move. That is what I did, though I wish I brought in just a little bit more than I did. I'm still surprised they aren't just taxing us on all our worldwide income, and instead are focusing on remittance only, which makes things way more difficult.

Ditto - regarding bringing extra money into Thailand in 2023 - and now I am also waiting and watching to see how things go before deciding what to do.

 

Actually, I am glad they are only taxing remitted money.  That allows me to control what form of money I do bring into Thailand. If I ever did make/receive any additional income going forward it will be impossible for the Thai RD to know as it would be 'quietly' added to my other retirement savings account (Super). I will put some money from my Super (and all the Govt Pension), that I wish to bring over each year, into one Aust bank account and then to Wise and then to my Thai bank account.

 

That does not mean that the Thai RD will not try to impose income taxes on all those remittances by forcing me to lodge a tax return to prove the money is not taxable in Thailand - and then make me wait and hope to see if they agree. 

 

And that is the big issue (for me) going forward - how would I (if I have to) prove that to the Thai RD - what documentation will be acceptable to them - will I need to engage/pay a Thai tax accountant every year - what happens if they dont accept my claimed exemptions and/or allowances - where can I do next if that happens, other than to leave? 

 

There are several posters who have said that the Thai Govt gets a lot more money from what Expats bring into Thailand, then they would get if they impose an income tax on some of that money - so why would they risk lossing part/all of it?  But logic and reason is not something that is in a large amount here as we all know.  IMO the Thai RD is under huge pressure to drag in more money as the economy continues to slowly decline, and they will only care about getting maybe 5-10% of the estimated 300 Billion Baht that is remitted into Thailand by the estimated 300,000 retired and married Expats currently living here. Worrying about potentially losing a large number of those Expats is not something IMO that the Thai RD gives a rat's rear about - but like everyone else I just have to wait and see what happens - it is a worry, but it might be OK

[jayboy]

On 1/11/2024 at 9:12 AM, pattaya1234was said:

Yesterday I received a notification from the bank in the UK, Barclays,  that is closing my account,  that I need to inform them about my Tax Residency status both in the UK and Thailand.

They state that the information they have about me suggests that I may be a tax resident of Thailand.They require Tax Identification numbers for both UK and Thailand. So Big brother is here!

As I am now no longer a customer of Barclays I do not feel obliged to give them any information. Any thoughts? 

 

Do you mean you heard from Barclays having closed your account by your own decision?

[pattaya1234was]

15 hours ago, jayboy said:

 

Do you mean you heard from Barclays having closed your account by your own decision?

No, by their decision. They are closing accounts of all overseas customers who do not have a UK address

[Mike Lister]

16 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Ditto - regarding bringing extra money into Thailand in 2023 - and now I am also waiting and watching to see how things go before deciding what to do.

 

Actually, I am glad they are only taxing remitted money.  That allows me to control what form of money I do bring into Thailand. If I ever did make/receive any additional income going forward it will be impossible for the Thai RD to know as it would be 'quietly' added to my other retirement savings account (Super). I will put some money from my Super (and all the Govt Pension), that I wish to bring over each year, into one Aust bank account and then to Wise and then to my Thai bank account.

 

That does not mean that the Thai RD will not try to impose income taxes on all those remittances by forcing me to lodge a tax return to prove the money is not taxable in Thailand - and then make me wait and hope to see if they agree. 

 

And that is the big issue (for me) going forward - how would I (if I have to) prove that to the Thai RD - what documentation will be acceptable to them - will I need to engage/pay a Thai tax accountant every year - what happens if they dont accept my claimed exemptions and/or allowances - where can I do next if that happens, other than to leave? 

 

There are several posters who have said that the Thai Govt gets a lot more money from what Expats bring into Thailand, then they would get if they impose an income tax on some of that money - so why would they risk lossing part/all of it?  But logic and reason is not something that is in a large amount here as we all know.  IMO the Thai RD is under huge pressure to drag in more money as the economy continues to slowly decline, and they will only care about getting maybe 5-10% of the estimated 300 Billion Baht that is remitted into Thailand by the estimated 300,000 retired and married Expats currently living here. Worrying about potentially losing a large number of those Expats is not something IMO that the Thai RD gives a rat's rear about - but like everyone else I just have to wait and see what happens - it is a worry, but it might be OK

It's not so much that the Revenue will force you to prove the money is not taxable. In the first instance, many will be required to file a tax return and state what they believe their taxable income is. If they state correctly and accurately and the numbers are reasonable, that is very likely to be the end of the matter, just as it would be in most countries. If however the numbers are suspicious, perhaps because they are so small by comparison to all the overseas remittances received, they may well ask you to prove that your return is complete and truthful.

 

As for why would they risk losing all the expats who transfer funds into Thailand: I have never believed and they have never said that foreigners in Thailand are the target, some English language media has but that's just sensationalistic journalism. The target always was and remains, Thai's who have undeclared assets overseas who remit their earnings to Thailand free of tax and don't declare them to the Thai RD. 

[Spilornis]

3 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

The target always was and remains, Thai's who have undeclared assets overseas who remit their earnings to Thailand free of tax and don't declare them to the Thai RD. 

Good point

Thais working in the UAE for example are tax free in the UAE on their earnings. This will tax those earnings when remitted. The flipside is that it will make it less attractive to work in such places.

I assume the Thai Govt would know (or could easily ascertain) who these people are and take it from there

[retarius]

On 1/12/2024 at 5:34 AM, Mike Lister said:

I just can't see a majority of average expats being taxed in any meaningful way, certainly not retirees. There are around 300,000 westerns living in Thailand and over 4 million foreigners of all nationalities living here. The 300,000 import funds from overseas which help support local economies and aid consumer spending and the government knows this. The property market in place such as Phuket are dependent on foreigners and the industry would scream if it thought people were going to be taxed on transfers to buy property because it would kill the market stone dead. 

Mike, I agree with the logic of what you say, and I do hope you are correct. You seem to have faith in the good sense of Thailand's leaders that I lack. 

 

I have a little anxiety because I have seen a large number of illogical, and frankly nutty schemes that our glorious leaders propose, and sometimes even implement. Having seen Thailand go from a high growth/low debt economy in 2008 to a much lower growth/much higher debt country now, damaging their own economy seem not to be beyond the capabilities of our leaders. 

[jayboy]

1 hour ago, pattaya1234was said:

No, by their decision. They are closing accounts of all overseas customers who do not have a UK address

It must have been intensely irritating.How much notice did they give you?

 

I don't fully get why these big banks which market themselves to British expatriates become so unreliable when British expatriates actually want to use their services.There must be many British expats who have no UK address but need the services of a UK bank eg to finance costs on visits back to the UK, receive pension and other payments, make payments to UK based contacts, service standing orders for health insurance etc etc.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

It's not so much that the Revenue will force you to prove the money is not taxable. In the first instance, many will be required to file a tax return and state what they believe their taxable income is. If they state correctly and accurately and the numbers are reasonable, that is very likely to be the end of the matter, just as it would be in most countries. If however the numbers are suspicious, perhaps because they are so small by comparison to all the overseas remittances received, they may well ask you to prove that your return is complete and truthful.

 

As for why would they risk losing all the expats who transfer funds into Thailand: I have never believed and they have never said that foreigners in Thailand are the target, some English language media has but that's just sensationalistic journalism. The target always was and remains, Thai's who have undeclared assets overseas who remit their earnings to Thailand free of tax and don't declare them to the Thai RD. 

I hear you and agree with some of that - but most of it is your 'belief'. When in business I learned the hard way that 'belief' has nothing to do with Contract Laws or Taxation Rules. What is fact matters - and what is precedent also matters.  While you believe those things Mike - I have many doubts about things - but I am not saying you are wrong - I am saying they are not facts.

 

Yes Expats in Thailand are going to be caught in this new net, and the Thai RD is clearly aware of it and that is why this media story was published about a 'new tax era'. However, exactly what are our obligations under this new rule change (and all the others caught up in it), has not been clarified by the Thai RD. In fact they have formed a committee and are discussing how this change will be implemented - hopefully they will provide details sooner than later.

 

Regarding whether Thailand should impose income taxes on Expats living here as retired or married in a matter of belief - and we are definitely in disagreement. I do not believe that they should be doing that at all (many reasons), and you believe that they should be able to do so (also many reasons). That particular discussion is a matter of beliefs and is not a matter of facts. 

 

Hopefully, the Thai Govt will recognise that if the Thai RD implements this new tax era the 'wrong way' and retired or married Expats are caused a lot of financial and/or legal problems (forced to pay taxes unfairlt, forced to lodge complicated tax returns, forced to pay for tax accountants and/or translators, hit with income taxes not expected, etc etc) then that will result in many Expats leaving (me too), and new Expats not coming to live here anymore. The fact that the Thai Govt has not responded positively to this all this very negative social media activities for over 3 months, makes me believe that they do want us all to pay as much income taxes as the Thai RD can get out of us.  But how the Thai RD will implement this new tax era, and under what processes will it be applied, and detailed explanations of individual circumstances, etc etc - those facts have still not arrived from the Thai RD and the Thai Govt has given no assurances.

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

I hear you and agree with some of that - but most of it is your 'belief'. When in business I learned the hard way that 'belief' has nothing to do with Contract Laws or Taxation Rules. What is fact matters - and what is precedent also matters.  While you believe those things Mike - I have many doubts about things - but I am not saying you are wrong - I am saying they are not facts.

 

Yes Expats in Thailand are going to be caught in this new net, and the Thai RD is clearly aware of it and that is why this media story was published about a 'new tax era'. However, exactly what are our obligations under this new rule change (and all the others caught up in it), has not been clarified by the Thai RD. In fact they have formed a committee and are discussing how this change will be implemented - hopefully they will provide details sooner than later.

 

Regarding whether Thailand should impose income taxes on Expats living here as retired or married in a matter of belief - and we are definitely in disagreement. I do not believe that they should be doing that at all (many reasons), and you believe that they should be able to do so (also many reasons). That particular discussion is a matter of beliefs and is not a matter of facts. 

 

Hopefully, the Thai Govt will recognise that if the Thai RD implements this new tax era the 'wrong way' and retired or married Expats are caused a lot of financial and/or legal problems (forced to pay taxes unfairlt, forced to lodge complicated tax returns, forced to pay for tax accountants and/or translators, hit with income taxes not expected, etc etc) then that will result in many Expats leaving (me too), and new Expats not coming to live here anymore. The fact that the Thai Govt has not responded positively to this all this very negative social media activities for over 3 months, makes me believe that they do want us all to pay as much income taxes as the Thai RD can get out of us.  But how the Thai RD will implement this new tax era, and under what processes will it be applied, and detailed explanations of individual circumstances, etc etc - those facts have still not arrived from the Thai RD and the Thai Govt has given no assurances.

I'll bet you a beer.

[RedArmy]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

I'll bet you a beer.

Please refer to rule number 145,9845 which clearly states that Gambling is prohibited.

[scorecard]

2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

I'll bet you a beer.

Most of the comment in this thread is from foreigners who bring large amounts of funds from their original country. Many are perhaps quite wealthy and therefore have little hesitation (perhaps for many past years) to bring in quite large amount of cash.

 

What still seems to be lacking in fact is Thai personal tax treatment on state pensions which are transferred to the entitled recipient every 4 weeks. to be specific I'm referring to the Australian Old Age Pension (OAP). There's quite a few Ozzies living in LOS whose' only income is the OAP. 

 

Further the Australian laws on this (which govern Centrelink) appear to say that the OAP is not subject to personal tax. But that's of course meaning in Australia and in cases where the OAP recipient has no other income. But some other members on this thread say that "...OAP is not subject to personal tax." is not true" Confusion...

 

For these folks it still seems to unclear how Thailand will tax these funds, and I've yet to read a specific conclusive comment on how Thai personal taxes will be affected by the existing double tax agreement Thailand and Australia.

Edited January 14 by scorecard

[ozimoron]

30 minutes ago, scorecard said:

Most of the comment in this thread is from foreigners who bring large amounts of funds from their original country. Many are perhaps quite wealthy and therefore have little hesitation (perhaps for many past years) to bring in quite large amount of cash.

 

What still seems to be lacking in fact is Thai personal tax treatment on state pensions which are transferred to the entitled recipient every 4 weeks. to be specific I'm referring to the Australian Old Age Pension (OAP). There's quite a few Ozzies living in LOS whose' only income is the OAP. 

 

Further the Australian laws on this (which govern Centrelink) appear to say that the OAP is not subject to personal tax. But that's of course meaning in Australia and in cases where the OAP recipient has no other income. But some other members on this thread say that "...OAP is not subject to personal tax." is not true" Confusion...

 

For these folks it still seems to unclear how Thailand will tax these funds, and I've yet to read a specific conclusive comment on how Thai personal taxes will be affected by the existing double tax agreement Thailand and Australia.

 

My totally unqualified and probably wrong opinion is this:

 

OAP is an assessable source of income. It is not taxed because it doesn't exceed the tax free threshold. Were you to have a sideline hustle in Australia your taxable income would be that part of your total income above the tax free threshold. Under the double tax agreement OAP may not be assessable in Thailand.

Edited January 14 by ozimoron

[scorecard]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

 

My totally unqualified and probably wrong opinion is this:

 

OAP is an assessable source of income. It is not taxed because it doesn't exceed the tax free threshold. Were you to have a sideline hustle in Australia your taxable income would be that part of your total income above the tax free threshold. Under the double tax agreement it may not be assessable in Thailand.

 

Thank you. 

[Mike Lister]

1 hour ago, scorecard said:

Most of the comment in this thread is from foreigners who bring large amounts of funds from their original country. Many are perhaps quite wealthy and therefore have little hesitation (perhaps for many past years) to bring in quite large amount of cash.

 

What still seems to be lacking in fact is Thai personal tax treatment on state pensions which are transferred to the entitled recipient every 4 weeks. to be specific I'm referring to the Australian Old Age Pension (OAP). There's quite a few Ozzies living in LOS whose' only income is the OAP. 

 

Further the Australian laws on this (which govern Centrelink) appear to say that the OAP is not subject to personal tax. But that's of course meaning in Australia and in cases where the OAP recipient has no other income. But some other members on this thread say that "...OAP is not subject to personal tax." is not true" Confusion...

 

For these folks it still seems to unclear how Thailand will tax these funds, and I've yet to read a specific conclusive comment on how Thai personal taxes will be affected by the existing double tax agreement Thailand and Australia.

Of all the items that can be t axed, pensions is probably the easiest to understand. Have you read the following? If you have, simply substitute Oz for UK and you have the picture.

 

 

[Mike Lister]

42 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

My totally unqualified and probably wrong opinion is this:

 

OAP is an assessable source of income. It is not taxed because it doesn't exceed the tax free threshold. Were you to have a sideline hustle in Australia your taxable income would be that part of your total income above the tax free threshold. Under the double tax agreement OAP may not be assessable in Thailand.

Almost. Assessable income as far as Thailand is concerned is that money that is brought into the country, some of which may subsequently found to be tax exempt by treaty, or may not.

 

 

41 minutes ago, scorecard said:

 

Thank you. 

 

[metisdead]

A post with a link to the Pattaya Mail and the replies contravening our Forum Rules have been removed:

 

16. The Bangkok Post, Khaosod, Pattaya Mail and the Phuket News do not allow quotes from their news articles or other material to appear on ASEAN NOW. Neither do they allow links to their publications. Posts from members containing quotes from or links to the Bangkok Post, Khaosod, Pattaya Mail and the Phuket News publications will be deleted from the forum. These restrictions are put in place by the above publications, not by ASEAN NOW. In rare cases, forum administrators or the news team may use these sources under special permission.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

11 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

I'll bet you a beer.

OK by me - so tell me exactly what is the bet?

[TroubleandGrumpy]

7 hours ago, ozimoron said:

OAP is an assessable source of income. It is not taxed because it doesn't exceed the tax free threshold.

That is not correct - the full pension is $28, 516 which is well over the tax free threshold. 

 

But your other point is correct - the Age Pension is taxable income in Austraia - but the 'rule' is that ATO does not tax the Age Pension.  The reason it is taxable income, is so that anyone earning additional money above the Pension is taxed at the marginal rate applicable on their income, at the rate applicable when the pension is added together with their income.  When you get the Age Pension there is no tax free threshold of $18,200 applicable for any income above the pension. Plus the Pension payment is reduced if you earn over $204 a fortnight ($5,304 per year). 

  

[TroubleandGrumpy]

8 hours ago, scorecard said:

Most of the comment in this thread is from foreigners who bring large amounts of funds from their original country. Many are perhaps quite wealthy and therefore have little hesitation (perhaps for many past years) to bring in quite large amount of cash.

 

What still seems to be lacking in fact is Thai personal tax treatment on state pensions which are transferred to the entitled recipient every 4 weeks. to be specific I'm referring to the Australian Old Age Pension (OAP). There's quite a few Ozzies living in LOS whose' only income is the OAP. 

 

Further the Australian laws on this (which govern Centrelink) appear to say that the OAP is not subject to personal tax. But that's of course meaning in Australia and in cases where the OAP recipient has no other income. But some other members on this thread say that "...OAP is not subject to personal tax." is not true" Confusion...

 

For these folks it still seems to unclear how Thailand will tax these funds, and I've yet to read a specific conclusive comment on how Thai personal taxes will be affected by the existing double tax agreement Thailand and Australia.

I am chasing up this issue for the Forum - I have contacted several tax companies in Thailand and the ATO.  There is one tax company that stated on their website that the Australian OAP is assesable taxable income in Thailand. I have requested their details and whether that is their opinion, or have they dealt with the Thai RD regarding this matter for an Australian and they therefore have a case example. I also asked if they have communicated with the ATO regarding this matter too.   No one has replied to me yet.  I will also add that back in October I sent an email to the Thai RD and asked about how/where I could get more information on how this change might affect my personal financial situation as a married Expat in Thailand - no reply was received.

 

[CashMoon]

Wise (formerly Transferwise) sends local currency from a local company account. Will Wise transfers be included in the tax?  

[shdmn]

On 1/7/2024 at 3:35 PM, hotchilli said:

My UK pension starts in 2025, start taxing that I'll be gone.

Pensions will not be taxed, but I am sure you will find some other reason to whine.

Edited January 14 by shdmn

[TroubleandGrumpy]

14 minutes ago, CashMoon said:

Wise (formerly Transferwise) sends local currency from a local company account. Will Wise transfers be included in the tax?  

If they are assesable and taxable yes - it is when they land in a Thai bank account that they may be included, depenbding on your personal circumstances.

[TroubleandGrumpy]

7 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Of all the items that can be t axed, pensions is probably the easiest to understand. Have you read the following? If you have, simply substitute Oz for UK and you have the picture.

 

 

Pensions are included in every DTA - and every DTA is different.  Some like USA specificaly state that all Pensions paid in USA are only taxable in USA. But others are a bit more undefined because the wording is not so clear. 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

11 minutes ago, shdmn said:

Pensions will not be taxed, but I am sure you will find some other reason to whine.

That may and may not be true - it is not clear and certain, except for USA Pensions, the rest of us are in limbo waiting for definitive answers. 

 

[Mike Lister]

4 hours ago, shdmn said:

Pensions will not be taxed, but I am sure you will find some other reason to whine.

This is not necessarily true, it depends on several factors including country of origin, type and the contents of any DTA.

[Mike Lister]

4 hours ago, CashMoon said:

Wise (formerly Transferwise) sends local currency from a local company account. Will Wise transfers be included in the tax?  

The Revenue rules don't change just because of the way the money was sent to Thailand be it SWIFT, major bank, cash carried on a plane, ATM transfer or WISE, it's all potentially assessible income.

[hotchilli]

7 hours ago, shdmn said:

Pensions will not be taxed, but I am sure you will find some other reason to whine.

I'm not whining... 

[Mike Lister]

8 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

I am chasing up this issue for the Forum - I have contacted several tax companies in Thailand and the ATO.  There is one tax company that stated on their website that the Australian OAP is assesable taxable income in Thailand. I have requested their details and whether that is their opinion, or have they dealt with the Thai RD regarding this matter for an Australian and they therefore have a case example. I also asked if they have communicated with the ATO regarding this matter too.   No one has replied to me yet.  I will also add that back in October I sent an email to the Thai RD and asked about how/where I could get more information on how this change might affect my personal financial situation as a married Expat in Thailand - no reply was received.

 

Thank you, I appreciate your effort on this, lots of posters need to be doing the same things in respect of their countries tax rules.

[Mike Lister]

8 hours ago, shdmn said:

Pensions will not be taxed, but I am sure you will find some other reason to whine.

A full stop after the word "taxed" would have answered the point adequately! It would have been still been the wrong answer but it would have been nicer!

 

Taxes on pensions depends on a range of factors including country of origin and type of pension, it also varies according the DTA that exists between the two countries.