Hamas: Oct 7 was 'necessary, normal response' to 'Israeli conspiracies'

[Morch]

@Neeranam

 

The poster I replied to claimed that Rabin was "the peace maker leader of the Palestinian people".

Rabin was the Israeli Prime Minister.

 

He then echoed a conspiracy theory regarding the murder. This forum doesn't 'do' conspiracy theories.

 

Also, his timeline seemed confused, with the murder being on 1995, and the elections Hamas won taking place about a decade later.

 

[Neeranam]

3 hours ago, Morch said:

@Neeranam

 

The poster I replied to claimed that Rabin was "the peace maker leader of the Palestinian people".

Rabin was the Israeli Prime Minister.

 

He then echoed a conspiracy theory regarding the murder. This forum doesn't 'do' conspiracy theories.

 

Also, his timeline seemed confused, with the murder being on 1995, and the elections Hamas won taking place about a decade later.

 

Fair enough, I see. 

As you know, the current right wing politicians wanted Rabin gone. 

 

Ben Gvir was a teenager during Rabin’s murder and was filmed threatening Rabin while holding an ornament taken from Rabin’s car

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/at-rabin-rally-in-jerusalem-labor-chief-rips-netanyahu-ben-gvir-over-1995-protest/

 

Yes, the same guy last week. 

 

Israel's far-right National Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir called Wednesday for the "occupation of the Gaza Strip” and encouraging the emigration of its residents despite international criticism of such statements.

 

 

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/israel-s-far-right-security-minister-advocates-occupation-of-gaza-encourages-emigration/3112010

[Brickleberry]

1 hour ago, radiochaser said:

Edited to add this question.   Was a music festival, an Israeli military site?

They claim it was accidental ...

... we in the Islamic Resistance Movement – Hamas clarify
the following:
1. Operation Al-Aqsa Flood on Oct. 7 targeted the Israeli
military sites, and sought to arrest the enemy’s soldiers to
pressure on the Israeli authorities to release the thousands of
Palestinians held in Israeli jails through a prisoners exchange
deal. Therefore, the operation focused on destroying the
Israeli army’s Gaza Division, the Israeli military sites stationed
near the Israeli settlements around Gaza.
2. Avoiding harm to civilians, especially children, women
and elderly people is a religious and moral commitment
by all the Al-Qassam Brigades’ fighters. We reiterate
that the Palestinian resistance was fully disciplined and
committed to the Islamic values during the operation
and that the Palestinian fighters only targeted the
occupation soldiers and those who carried weapons
against our people. In the meantime, the Palestinian
fighters were keen to avoid harming civilians despite
the fact that the resistance does not possess precise
weapons. In addition, if there was any case of targeting
civilians; it happened accidently and in the course of
the confrontation with the occupation forces.
 

 

That part is partially true. They killed 792 civillians (the death toll includes those shot by Israeli soldiers, or blown up by Israeli tank shells) and almost 400 Israeli military personnel. The festival was moved to that location only 2 days prior to the massacre on the 7th October. They were not supposed to be there.

 

Interestingly, There had been warnings about from the IDF for several weeks prior to the 7th. IDF soldiers were repeatedly warning that they could see Hamas members practicing to breach the fences and gates. Those soldiers who reported the incidents multiple times were told to stop reporting it, or risk being written up for insubordination.

 

I wouldn't believe their propaganda that they didn't want to attack civilians though.

 

They wanted to take civilians, and always have wanted to take them. They are bargaining tools to get back the hostages Israel keeps in its jail cells - thousands of women and children are locked up without any charges. Indefinite administrative detention, with a military court that successfully prosecutes over 99% of Palestinians. No one talks about little kids and women getting thrown in jail for 'throwing a stone' at a settler/IDF soldier. We only want to talk about the 130 remaining hostages in Gaza. I think we should have sympathy for hostages on both sides.

[Captain Monday]

On 1/23/2024 at 9:38 AM, coolcarer said:

18 pages of macabre fiction then. Just read some of it, the pdf link is in the below article. Honestly there are some real beauties in there, sick conspiracies and vile false accusations to distract from their horrific actions on the 7th Oct.

 

"The Palestinian fighters committed rape against Israeli women was fully denied including suggestion by the Hamas Movement."

 

Citing a “religious and moral commitment” to leaving civilians unharmed, the document falsely claims that Hamas's Al-Qassam Brigades “only targeted the occupation soldiers and those who carried weapons against our people”, and any civilian casualties that occurred on October 7 “happened accidently and in the course of the confrontation with the occupation forces.”

https://www.thejc.com/news/israel/hamas-releases-new-document-explaining-motives-for-october-7-y3qnfaal

I do not have ability at this moment to read a Hamas propaganda screed.  Nor can I stomach Israel repetitively and accurately pointing out that Hamas uses the Paletinian people as human shields, while the IDF ”take maximum measures to avoid civilian casualties”. 

 

Israel takes the same level of precautions to avoid civilian casualties in Gaza as a gardener hunting for gophers takes to avoid the thousands of ants and worms extirpated whilst digging up the ground with a pick-axe.  With the exact same level of concern for the welfare and fate of those insects.

[Jingthing]

5 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

That part is partially true. They killed 792 civillians (the death toll includes those shot by Israeli soldiers, or blown up by Israeli tank shells) and almost 400 Israeli military personnel. The festival was moved to that location only 2 days prior to the massacre on the 7th October. They were not supposed to be there.

 

Interestingly, There had been warnings about from the IDF for several weeks prior to the 7th. IDF soldiers were repeatedly warning that they could see Hamas members practicing to breach the fences and gates. Those soldiers who reported the incidents multiple times were told to stop reporting it, or risk being written up for insubordination.

 

I wouldn't believe their propaganda that they didn't want to attack civilians though.

 

They wanted to take civilians, and always have wanted to take them. They are bargaining tools to get back the hostages Israel keeps in its jail cells - thousands of women and children are locked up without any charges. Indefinite administrative detention, with a military court that successfully prosecutes over 99% of Palestinians. No one talks about little kids and women getting thrown in jail for 'throwing a stone' at a settler/IDF soldier. We only want to talk about the 130 remaining hostages in Gaza. I think we should have sympathy for hostages on both sides.

Typical pro Hamas garbage.

Throwing rocks at people is not a crime in your deluded world?

[Neeranam]

8 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Typical pro Hamas garbage.

Throwing rocks at people is not a crime in your deluded world?

What on earth is pro Hamas about the post you quoted? 

 

 

I wouldn't believe their propaganda that they didn't want to attack civilians though.

[Brickleberry]

9 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Typical pro Hamas garbage.

Throwing rocks at people is not a crime in your deluded world?

 

You miss the point. They can just say a stone/rock was thrown, and carted off to jail they go. Kids and women. I'm pretty sure that kids do not get thrown in jail for suspicion of throwing a stone in the west, right?

 

I don;t understand why you are so supportive of Israel. You frequently comment on the rights of LGBT and trans people's right to self determination, and Israel's rights. You never comment on Palestinians right to self determination.

[Neeranam]

9 minutes ago, Captain Monday said:

Israel takes the same level of precautions to avoid civilian casualties in Gaza as a gardener hunting for gophers takes to avoid the thousands of ants and worms exterminated whilst digging up the ground with a pick axe. With the same level of concern for the fate of those insects.

Personally, it's hard to blame the actual IDF fighters, many don't want to fight  they are being commanded by right wing extremists, and they've been brought up in a country where non-Jews are second class citizens. 

[Neeranam]

2 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

I don;t understand why you are so supportive of Israel. You frequently comment on the rights of LGBT and trans people's right to self determination, and Israel's rights. You never comment on Palestinians right to self determination.

And Ukraine. 

I've a few US/Jewish friends who show incredible bias, which is out of character, when it comes to Israel. 

[Morch]

45 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Fair enough, I see. 

As you know, the current right wing politicians wanted Rabin gone. 

 

Ben Gvir was a teenager during Rabin’s murder and was filmed threatening Rabin while holding an ornament taken from Rabin’s car

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/at-rabin-rally-in-jerusalem-labor-chief-rips-netanyahu-ben-gvir-over-1995-protest/

 

Yes, the same guy last week. 

 

Israel's far-right National Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir called Wednesday for the "occupation of the Gaza Strip” and encouraging the emigration of its residents despite international criticism of such statements.

 

 

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/israel-s-far-right-security-minister-advocates-occupation-of-gaza-encourages-emigration/3112010

 

Yes...and?

 

How does it relate to the poster's nonsense comment? Or to my reply?

[WDSmart]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

I do not think that there's only one true reality, I think that the one you tout is a lie. That difference. If you think that there are no such things as 'wrong' and 'right', guess you can wallow content in your nihilistic bubble.

I know you believe in your version of what is happening and why. I think your version of "facts" is from biased sources. I don't believe you "lie."

I am not lying when I cite my interpretation of what is happening. I am telling you truthfully what I see and read from a variety of sources, including many you cite. I am only offering what I believe from my perspective.

The difference between us is, IMO, you are so sure of your sources and perspective that you believe any other perspective comes from some dishonesty. Mine doesn't. Also, one big difference is that you, again, IMO, are excessively arrogant, and that's what fuels your belief that you and only your perspective can not only be true but can be presented with integrity.  

[Morch]

42 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

That part is partially true. They killed 792 civillians (the death toll includes those shot by Israeli soldiers, or blown up by Israeli tank shells) and almost 400 Israeli military personnel. The festival was moved to that location only 2 days prior to the massacre on the 7th October. They were not supposed to be there.

 

Interestingly, There had been warnings about from the IDF for several weeks prior to the 7th. IDF soldiers were repeatedly warning that they could see Hamas members practicing to breach the fences and gates. Those soldiers who reported the incidents multiple times were told to stop reporting it, or risk being written up for insubordination.

 

I wouldn't believe their propaganda that they didn't want to attack civilians though.

 

They wanted to take civilians, and always have wanted to take them. They are bargaining tools to get back the hostages Israel keeps in its jail cells - thousands of women and children are locked up without any charges. Indefinite administrative detention, with a military court that successfully prosecutes over 99% of Palestinians. No one talks about little kids and women getting thrown in jail for 'throwing a stone' at a settler/IDF soldier. We only want to talk about the 130 remaining hostages in Gaza. I think we should have sympathy for hostages on both sides.

 

There you go again - "thousands of women and children are locked up without any charges.".

 

Whereas:

 

Quote

In April 2022, there were 4,450 Palestinian security prisoners in Israeli prisons – including 160 children, 32 women, and over 1000 "administrative detainees" (indefinitely incarcerated without charge).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_prisoners_in_Israel

 

As for 'no one talks about', you got to be kidding - plenty of stories about it.

 

And no, Palestinians held in Israel are not 'hostages' other than in your warped mind.

 

 

 

[Morch]

37 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

What on earth is pro Hamas about the post you quoted? 

 

 

I wouldn't believe their propaganda that they didn't want to attack civilians though.

 

Equating Palestinian prisoners held by Israel and the hostages Hamas kidnapped.

Making bogus exaggerated claims about the number of children and women held.

The usual. The stuff you consider normal.

[Morch]

34 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

You miss the point. They can just say a stone/rock was thrown, and carted off to jail they go. Kids and women. I'm pretty sure that kids do not get thrown in jail for suspicion of throwing a stone in the west, right?

 

I don;t understand why you are so supportive of Israel. You frequently comment on the rights of LGBT and trans people's right to self determination, and Israel's rights. You never comment on Palestinians right to self determination.

 

Years back, there was a spree of rock throwing at cars on the highway near Ayutthaya. Several accidents, people hurt etc. Don't recall if there were death or not.

 

Turned out to be a group of youths, with other groups emulating them.

 

The forum was in uproar. Death sentences recommended, torture optional.

 

Guess this is totally different. Or something.

 

Pathetic.

 

 

[Morch]

39 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Personally, it's hard to blame the actual IDF fighters, many don't want to fight  they are being commanded by right wing extremists, and they've been brought up in a country where non-Jews are second class citizens. 

 

You're making things up again. Many of the soldiers are right-wingers, many of the commanders are lefties.

 

[Neeranam]

8 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Equating Palestinian prisoners held by Israel and the hostages Hamas kidnapped.

Making bogus exaggerated claims about the number of children and women held.

The usual. The stuff you consider normal.

I hope you are not suggesting I am pro Hamas. 

[Neeranam]

1 minute ago, Morch said:

 

You're making things up again. Many of the soldiers are right-wingers, many of the commanders are lefties.

 

Source? 

[Morch]

16 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

I know you believe in your version of what is happening and why. I think your version of "facts" is from biased sources. I don't believe you "lie."

I am not lying when I cite my interpretation of what is happening. I am telling you truthfully what I see and read from a variety of sources, including many you cite. I am only offering what I believe from my perspective.

The difference between us is, IMO, you are so sure of your sources and perspective that you believe any other perspective comes from some dishonesty. Mine doesn't. Also, one big difference is that you, again, IMO, are excessively arrogant, and that's what fuels your belief that you and only your perspective can not only be true but can be presented with integrity.  

 

You do not provide any facts whatsoever to support your claims. You just say you these are your opinions. Most of what I comment on is backed up with facts. Several replies to your nonsense included such.

 

You lie when you contradict facts. You lie when you repeat the same after being corrected. Whether you believe your own lies is not my concern.

 

I trust what I post because it's backed by fact, reality and knowledge. What you post rarely stands even basic scrutiny.

[Brickleberry]

21 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

There you go again - "thousands of women and children are locked up without any charges.".

 

Whereas:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_prisoners_in_Israel

 

As for 'no one talks about', you got to be kidding - plenty of stories about it.

 

And no, Palestinians held in Israel are not 'hostages' other than in your warped mind.

 

 

Wikipedia, from stats that are two years out of date. Shame on you.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/21/more-than-8000-palestinians-in-israeli-jails-rights-groups-say

 

EDIT: look at the treatment of these prisoners too. Not very good for a democratic and just society.

https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/un-human-rights-office-opt-dramatic-rise-detention-palestinians-across-occupied-west-bank

Quote

The treatment of Palestinians during arrest, detention, and imprisonment is also deeply disturbing. Since 7 October, six Palestinian men have died while in Israeli custody – the highest number of cases reported in such a short time-period in decades. First-hand testimonies collected by the UN Human Rights Office appear consistent with numerous pictures and video clips published in recent weeks on social media by Israeli soldiers, depicting abuse and humiliation of Palestinians. 

 

[Morch]

5 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

I hope you are not suggesting I am pro Hamas. 

 

You're a troll.

[Morch]

6 minutes ago, Brickleberry said:

 

Wikipedia, from stats that are two years out of date. Shame on you.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/21/more-than-8000-palestinians-in-israeli-jails-rights-groups-say

 

Yet another deflection to cover you previous exaggeration.

You claimed 'thousands of women and children' being held.

The link provided does not support that, and if anything echoes the relevant figures I cited.

Try harder.

 

You keep doing these edits while posting - rather annoying.

 

I didn't claim anything in support of Israel's practices. I made a comment about you exaggerating figures, twisting facts to support your agenda. You may keep deflecting.

[WDSmart]

9 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

You do not provide any facts whatsoever to support your claims. You just say you these are your opinions. Most of what I comment on is backed up with facts. Several replies to your nonsense included such.

 

You lie when you contradict facts. You lie when you repeat the same after being corrected. Whether you believe your own lies is not my concern.

 

I trust what I post because it's backed by fact, reality and knowledge. What you post rarely stands even basic scrutiny.

I do claim my posts are based on my opinions. So are yours. 

I do not lie. I express my opinion. If my opinion does not match yours or your sources, you consider my opinions lies.

I know you believe and trust what you post because you believe they are backed by "fact, reality and knowledge." The "fact, reality and knowledge" are not yours, they are the opinions of others. You are just repeating what you read. You have no real knowledge of what's going on over there any more than I do. We both just rely on someone else's accounts and opinions on what is happening.

Again, it is just your arrogance that convinces you that only you are right and anyone who disagrees with you is wrong and, worse yet, lying. 

 

[Morch]

1 minute ago, WDSmart said:

I do claim my posts are based on my opinions. So are yours. 

I do not lie. I express my opinion. If my opinion does not math yours or your sources, you consider my opinions lies.

I know you believe and trust what you post because you believe they are backed by "fact, reality and knowledge." The "fact, reality and knowledge" are not yours, they are the opinions of others. You are just repeating what you read. You have no real knowledge of what's going on over there any more than I do. We both just rely on someone else's accounts and opinions on what is happening.

Again, it is just your arrogance that convinces you that only you are right, and anyone who disagrees with you is wrong and, worse yet, lying. 

 

 

No, that is not true.

 

I mostly base my comments on facts and reality. When I talk about opinions, I usually make that clear, rather than present them as facts - as you do.

 

I do not rely solely on 'opinions of others'. Despite your nonsense, there are such things as facts.

You try to say we have the same capacity to gauge things - I deny that. By your own words, you've never set foot in the place, do not speak either of the relevant languages, and come to the table with a preset biased stance. Not same same.

 

And another no - not everyone who disagrees with me is 'wrong'. Some are for sure. Some it remains a disagreement. As for lying - yeah, quite a lot of that on these topics - especially from 'your' side of the 'debate'.

[Captain Monday]

1 hour ago, Neeranam said:

Personally, it's hard to blame the actual IDF fighters, many don't want to fight  they are being commanded by right wing extremists, and they've been brought up in a country where non-Jews are second class citizens. 

In such a situations there are victims on all sides. When those  actually  responsible never held to account

 

A proxy war where the major players whether or not parties to the relevant treaties of international law and international humanitarian law do not allow themselves to be subject to it.  In fact international  law is referenced in only  an abstract way when it benefits the intransigent positions of those capable of doing anything to solve it. 

 

 

[Neeranam]

49 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

You're a troll.

You ask me for sources and when I ask you, you just leave your signature sad emoticon

 

[WDSmart]

31 minutes ago, Morch said:

By your own words, you've never set foot in the place, do not speak either of the relevant languages, and come to the table with a preset biased stance. Not same same.

So, are you saying you have been there (I assume Israel and not Gaza or the West Bank) and do speak Hebrew (I assume not Arabic)? If so, then there is indeed a certainty that you do "come to the table with a preset biased stance." How could you not? And if all that is true, I don't blame you for that, and I would understand your fierce objections to my posts, which do present the matter from what I believe is the perspective of the Palestinians.

If you validate my assumptions expressed above, I will indeed view your posts in a different light. That doesn't mean I'll agree with them, but it does mean I'll understand better where your bias comes from.

[Morch]

4 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

You ask me for sources and when I ask you, you just leave your signature sad emoticon

 

 

@Neeranam

 

Didn't you put me on 'ignore' again (or pretend to, whatever) earlier?

 

As for your nonsense: You're either asking for 'sources' regarding facts which have been thoroughly discussed on previous topics, or you troll with such 'requests' in response to comments made after you make dreamed up nonsense comments.

 

In short, you're a troll.

[Morch]

11 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

So, are you saying you have been there (I assume Israel and not Gaza or the West Bank) and do speak Hebrew (I assume not Arabic)? If so, then there is indeed a certainty that you do "come to the table with a preset biased stance." How could you not? And if all that is true, I don't blame you for that, and I would understand your fierce objections to my posts, which do present the matter from what I believe is the perspective of the Palestinians.

If you validate my assumptions expressed above, I will indeed view your posts in a different light. That doesn't mean I'll agree with them, but it does mean I'll understand better where your bias comes from.

 

You're assuming a whole lot. Guess that it's just a step away from it becoming your 'opinion', and then 'fact'.

I have been to all three areas mentioned. I have command of both languages (getting rusty with years, sure).

 

To follow your 'reasoning', anyone who has first hand experience with the regions is 'biased' and it would be much better to listen to the half-cooked 'opinions' of such as yourself, which are based on...reports from others who are in the region? Did you actually think this through?

 

You do not present things from the perspective of the Palestinians. How could you? Do you know any? Do you even understand their various social, political divides and groupings? You can't even get their official political agendas straight.

[Neeranam]

25 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

@Neeranam

 

Didn't you put me on 'ignore' again (or pretend to, whatever) earlier?

 

As for your nonsense: You're either asking for 'sources' regarding facts which have been thoroughly discussed on previous topics, or you troll with such 'requests' in response to comments made after you make dreamed up nonsense comments.

 

In short, you're a troll.

No, I had you on ignore pre October 7.

I saw by other posters quoting me, you were calling me a liar about studying Judaism and calling my spiritual advisor a Rabbit. 

There's a fine line between ignoring trolls who slander your name, or replying to them. 

[Neeranam]

25 minutes ago, Morch said:

You're assuming a whole lot. Guess that it's just a step away from it becoming your 'opinion', and then 'fact'.

I have been to all three areas mentioned. I have command of both languages (getting rusty with years, sure).

 

We know, that's where your obvious bias comes from.