Hamas Unveils Truce Proposal, Netanyahu states its delusional

Morch · February 9

1 hour ago, retarius said:

Stop the indiscriminate murders by the IDF now. I want to see a permanent cease fire now.

Does that mean you have a new issue lined up to blame Jews about?

Morch · February 9

56 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

Yes, that is why I have recommended having a UN peacekeeping force put into place to help coordinate and enforce all the aspects of any agreement.

How effective are/were UN 'Peacekeeping' forces in Syria, Lebanon? You are aware of things between Israel and Hezbollah, right? And you are, presumably, aware there's a UN peacekeeping force in place?

Morch · February 9

52 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

"When Hamas is wiped out, things could return to normal,..."

"Normal," what is that? Is that the "normal" before 1947 when the UN created the state of Israel? Or is "normal" the division of land that was in place right after the creation of Israel? Or is "normal" the way things were on Oct 6, 2023?

Normal.

As in no bombings.

As in no more Gazan casualties.

As in Aid pouring in to the Gaza Strip.

If you think Gazans would refuse going back to how things were in 6/10, you're wrong.

Morch · February 9

13 minutes ago, billd766 said:

But the did manage it in the past for hundreds of years.

@billd766

More of a myth, than an accurate account.

As with most historical examples, and references, a 'wee' bit more complex than that.

One reason we're often asked not to go into them history lessons/debates.

Given the general level of knowledge on this forum, it's a good thing.

WDSmart · February 9

30 minutes ago, Morch said:

You were most definitely deflecting, running away from addressing two 'points' you put up before that:

- An allegation that implied Israel is killing all the Palestinian within it's state boundaries.

- A suggestion that Hamas would hold on to the most vulnerable, the more innocent hostages - children, until the last minute.

The first is a lie, the second is vile (even Hamas didn't go that far).

You don't want to address them, fine - not expecting anything meaningful anyway. But do not claim that you're not deflecting, when you obviously are.

The list you put up is not quite what's discussed on CNN, at least not in the manner and biased way you present things. Maybe that's how you 'grasp' what's being commented on, but it's not quite what you're on about.

It is not true that both sides want the same thing. For starters, you can't even identify the sides, relying instead on some personal nonsense definition which do not conform to political reality. You are even wrong with regard to 'the faction in charge' on each side. These are basic facts. Not 'opinions', facts.

You can assert or believe that there's an equivalency. That does not make it into an agreed upon position, or one generally accepted. So once more, either inaccurate, or dishonest. Pick one.

As for Israel renewing operations after a ceasefire and hostage exchange, this may be so, but it is far from a fact or a done thing, as you make it to be. For starters, the Hamas is not unaware of this, and requires assurances regarding this. Constraints would be anything from the Hamas regrouping during the ceasefire, or breaking the agreement again and holding on to hostage after regrouping, or the cost and operational validity of withdrawing from the Gaza Strip and going back in again being too great, or the USA putting it's foot down, or whatever. If Israel was to sign an official agreement, or agree to unofficial arrangement (but, say, with USA as a side) I doubt it could walk out of it, or break it very easily. Noticeably you do not raise the possibility of Hamas renewing hostilities, or breaking the agreement - in your 'opinion' these are things Israel would do, but not Hamas.

You've made your despicable view of Hamas's use of hostage taking and holding on to hostages clear. Even the Hamas didn't go there. You take the extra step. And expect to be taken seriously. Or your 'opinions treated as some 'balanced' view. Bizarre. Vile. Goes hand in hand with using propaganda memes and pushing Hamas talking points.

You don't seem to know a whole lot about the content of past discussions regarding the two-state solution, or your wouldn't come up with such inane 'plans', as you did. Almost all of the talk regarding the two-state solution references these past discussions. Somehow, you feel that these could be ignored, and that the whole thing should be done from scratch, based on your uninformed 'opinions'. Nobody is seriously talking about a two-state solution materializing right now, or even right after the war. This will not happen. The talk is about how to renew the peace process, how to make it viable. There's virtually no serious view that advises sorting the two-state solution first, then deal with the Gaza situation - which is basically what you're on about. What this showcases, again, is your lack of interest in the people involved. You don't mind them suffering some more. In that too, not so different from Hamas leadership.

You have just demonstrated, again, that you do not grasp details and facts involved. Also, if you follow your own posts and interactions, you do not actually manage to discuss much with anyone - most of your exchanges get stuck real quick in that quagmire of you insisting on your 'opinion' being equal to facts, and your made up definitions meaning something in reality.

Thank you for listing the two points you have concerns with. I'll address them first.

- I'm sure I never said or implied that "Israel is killing all the Palestinian within it's state boundaries." What I probably said, and what I mean now, is that Israel would like to "eliminate" all the Palestinians within its state boundaries, and that, of course, includes Gaza and the West Bank. Now, by "eliminate," I mean kill or force out. I'll tone that back some to also suggest "control."
- I never suggested "that Hamas would hold on to the most vulnerable, the more innocent hostages - children, until the last minute." I proposed that as a bargaining tactic, and it wasn't until "the last minute." It was a staged release that mirrored a staged ceasefire and withdrawal by the IDF, and the implementation of a UN peacekeeping force.

I won't address the points above about what I believe to be the goals of both sides, which factions are now in charge, and the equivalency of the slaughter done by both sides. I think I've covered them enough for now

I would prefer to see an official UN peacekeeping force put into place to enforce a ceasefire, but any and all of the pressures you've mentioned above would be welcomed. And, yes, also to try to keep Hamas from launching any more attacks.

As I've said over and over again, I believe a two-state solution is the ONLY kind of solution that will ever even begin to resolve this horrible situation. Right now, I would support a prior suggestion of a return to the UN's 1947 map when they recognized the state of Israel. That would, of course, present a lot of problems, all (many) of which I've noted before, but a two-state solution or a continuing state of "war" are the only two options that I can see right now.

I have never equated my opinions to be equal to facts. I have said I do have opinions, and will continue to have them, and that I don't always trust what are presented to be (especially here, by you) as "fact." As I've said before, I believe you are just too biased on this subject to be able to decide for me (and everyone else) what the "reality" is.

retarius · February 9

3 hours ago, scottiejohn said:

Stop the indiscriminate murders by ~~the IDF~~ all sides now. I want to see a permanent cease fire now.

No, the Hamas have not been indiscriminate, they targetted their prey as terrorists do, the Israeli reaction is an abomination and outside of anything permitted by law? Do you think the IDF should be allowed to do operate outside international laws with zero limits on their brutality????? Sorry mate, one side is good, the Palestinian side and one side is evil.

Morch · February 9

1 hour ago, WDSmart said:

Thank you for listing the two points you have concerns with. I'll address them first.

- I'm sure I never said or implied that "Israel is killing all the Palestinian within it's state boundaries." What I probably said, and what I mean now, is that Israel would like to "eliminate" all the Palestinians within its state boundaries, and that, of course, includes Gaza and the West Bank. Now, by "eliminate," I mean kill or force out. I'll tone that back some to also suggest "control."
- I never suggested "that Hamas would hold on to the most vulnerable, the more innocent hostages - children, until the last minute." I proposed that as a bargaining tactic, and it wasn't until "the last minute." It was a staged release that mirrored a staged ceasefire and withdrawal by the IDF, and the implementation of a UN peacekeeping force.

I won't address the points above about what I believe to be the goals of both sides, which factions are now in charge, and the equivalency of the slaughter done by both sides. I think I've covered them enough for now

I would prefer to see an official UN peacekeeping force put into place to enforce a ceasefire, but any and all of the pressures you've mentioned above would be welcomed. And, yes, also to try to keep Hamas from launching any more attacks.

As I've said over and over again, I believe a two-state solution is the ONLY kind of solution that will ever even begin to resolve this horrible situation. Right now, I would support a prior suggestion of a return to the UN's 1947 map when they recognized the state of Israel. That would, of course, present a lot of problems, all (many) of which I've noted before, but a two-state solution or a continuing state of "war" are the only two options that I can see right now.

I have never equated my opinions to be equal to facts. I have said I do have opinions, and will continue to have them, and that I don't always trust what are presented to be (especially here, by you) as "fact." As I've said before, I believe you are just too biased on this subject to be able to decide for me (and everyone else) what the "reality" is.

Here is what you actually posted up-topic:

Quote

I see little value in a limited deal if, when it has been completed, Israel will just renew its killing of virtually all Palestinians within its state's boundaries

Renew implies this was going on before. Israel's borders do not include the Gaza Strip or the West Bank. This not happening, and it did not happen in the past. And, other than in your imagination, there is no unified Israeli view on most things - this one included. You'll find groups who are all for it, others who are anti-Zionists like yourself, and a whole lot of people and views in-between. Not having much knowledge regarding the things you post about is one thing, making bogus blanket statements is another. Most people could, through their life experience, appreciate that in any nation, any society, one will find a range of political views. Your 'toning back' is no better - it does not betray anything that's relevant to the current war, or indeed the the wider issues of a two-state solution, as both have to do with things outside Israel borders. Your nonsense comment, the way you framed it, refers the Arab citizens of Israel.

And with regard to the hostages:

Quote

I'd recommend that any hostages needing medical attention and the elderly be released during the first phase, but the rest of the hostages should be released during the next two or three phases in the reverse order suggested above. The next group would be single men, and the last group would be women with children and lone children.

Tell me more about 'I'm sure I never said or implied', or ' I never suggested'....You can't even follow you own posts? Can't be bothered to check what you posted?

And there you go again - bringing up points, calling for responses and discussion, then declining to address comments made. You've done this more than once on these topics, it's getting old. You're either being dishonest, or you're being dishonest. No two ways about it.

You have, again, failed to actually address the performance of UN peacekeeping forces, even as they involve current affairs. Simply parroting the same nonsense over and over again will not make your point become more valid. Peacekeeping troops do not 'enforce' anything. Get your facts straight. These aren't 'opinions'.

And sure enough, you've dodges the issue regarding Israel quite possible not being able to renew it's offensive vs. Hamas - which was the reason for mentioning them 'pressures'.

What you would support is of little significance or importance. It is at a disconnect with what's already a mostly agreed upon framework. You simply cannot bother reading up on things, so you go with your 'opinions', thereby posting out of touch commentary. No on seriously expects a return to the 1947 lines. It is neither feasible, not fair. It's just your 'opinion', and that's very little to go on.

You routinely treat your 'opinions' as equal to facts, even when presented with evidence that you are wrong. What you trust or don't trust doesn't change that. Almost everything I commented on is either common knowledge or strongly backed by sources.

Morch · February 9

32 minutes ago, retarius said:

No, the Hamas have not been indiscriminate, they targetted their prey as terrorists do, the Israeli reaction is an abomination and outside of anything permitted by law? Do you think the IDF should be allowed to do operate outside international laws with zero limits on their brutality????? Sorry mate, one side is good, the Palestinian side and one side is evil.

@retarius

Other than you seemingly ok with targeted murder of civilians, your nonsense post fails to account for them thousands of rockets Hamas launched at Israel. All of them unguided, indiscriminate. Each such instance, by the way, an actual war crime (if going by previous investigations etc.).

A terrorist organization which specifically targets civilians is the good side? Someone lost his moral compass.

WDSmart · February 10

14 hours ago, Nick Carter icp said:

That could happen any time when the hostages are released, the only way to stop that from happening would be to hold the hostages forever .

Holding the hostages until they die of old age .

That isn't really an option, because Israel wouldn't accept that

If the release of the hostages was part of an overall agreement and it was based on the completion of some actions by Isreal, like a ceasefire and withdrawal, or the establishment of some 3rd-party, neutral peacekeeping force, then the release of all the hostages, (like the last group) would supposedly happen when all that has occurred. If all that hadn't occurred, or if Hamas had not released the last group, then the agreement would have been violated, and the peacekeeping force should intervene and force compliance.

scottiejohn · February 10

11 hours ago, Morch said:

Someone lost his moral compass.

It sounds like he never had a moral compass to lose in the first place.

WDSmart · February 10

11 hours ago, Morch said:

Here is what you actually posted up-topic:

Renew implies this was going on before. Israel's borders do not include the Gaza Strip or the West Bank. This not happening, and it did not happen in the past. And, other than in your imagination, there is no unified Israeli view on most things - this one included. You'll find groups who are all for it, others who are anti-Zionists like yourself, and a whole lot of people and views in-between. Not having much knowledge regarding the things you post about is one thing, making bogus blanket statements is another. Most people could, through their life experience, appreciate that in any nation, any society, one will find a range of political views. Your 'toning back' is no better - it does not betray anything that's relevant to the current war, or indeed the the wider issues of a two-state solution, as both have to do with things outside Israel borders. Your nonsense comment, the way you framed it, refers the Arab citizens of Israel.

And with regard to the hostages:

Tell me more about 'I'm sure I never said or implied', or ' I never suggested'....You can't even follow you own posts? Can't be bothered to check what you posted?

And there you go again - bringing up points, calling for responses and discussion, then declining to address comments made. You've done this more than once on these topics, it's getting old. You're either being dishonest, or you're being dishonest. No two ways about it.

You have, again, failed to actually address the performance of UN peacekeeping forces, even as they involve current affairs. Simply parroting the same nonsense over and over again will not make your point become more valid. Peacekeeping troops do not 'enforce' anything. Get your facts straight. These aren't 'opinions'.

And sure enough, you've dodges the issue regarding Israel quite possible not being able to renew it's offensive vs. Hamas - which was the reason for mentioning them 'pressures'.

What you would support is of little significance or importance. It is at a disconnect with what's already a mostly agreed upon framework. You simply cannot bother reading up on things, so you go with your 'opinions', thereby posting out of touch commentary. No on seriously expects a return to the 1947 lines. It is neither feasible, not fair. It's just your 'opinion', and that's very little to go on.

You routinely treat your 'opinions' as equal to facts, even when presented with evidence that you are wrong. What you trust or don't trust doesn't change that. Almost everything I commented on is either common knowledge or strongly backed by sources.

You are taking my words and twisting them to suit your purpose of trying to demean me and thereby implying that what I say is not true.

- The IDF has killed almost 70,000 Palestinians since 7 Oct, but I never said (to my recollection) that the Zionists' intentions were to kill all Palestinians. I believe in that context, I used the word "eliminate," which could mean kill, but could also mean the removal of them. (Which, by the way, CNN has reported this morning they are starting to do in Rafah in Gaza.)

- And I never said or suggested that Hamas was doing or considering releasing hostages as I suggested. I only suggested that would, IMO, be a good tactic to employ in an agreement.

Morch, you are just too biased to treat any opinions that don't fully support Israel's position in this conflict as mistaken, false, or even outright lies. I know it's impossible for you to do, but I'm getting really tired of responding you your complaints about my post over and over again.

Palestinians want their land back, but they're being led by Haman, who are terrorists. Israelis want to control all of the lands within their state's boundaries, but they are being led by Zionists, who are extreme right-wing, militant, nationalists. That is the bottom line here, and neither side will change unless they are wiped out or some third parties intervene and enforce some kind of agreement that is based on a two-state solution.

Bkk Brian · February 10

15 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

You are taking my words and twisting them to suit your purpose of trying to demean me and thereby implying that what I say is not true.

- The IDF has killed almost 70,000 Palestinians since 7 Oct, but I never said (to my recollection) that the Zionists' intentions were to kill all Palestinians. I believe in that context, I used the word "eliminate," which could mean kill, but could also mean the removal of them. (Which, by the way, CNN has reported this morning they are starting to do in Rafah in Gaza.)

- And I never said or suggested that Hamas was doing or considering releasing hostages as I suggested. I only suggested that would, IMO, be a good tactic to employ in an agreement.

Morch, you are just too biased to treat any opinions that don't fully support Israel's position in this conflict as mistaken, false, or even outright lies. I know it's impossible for you to do, but I'm getting really tired of responding you your complaints about my post over and over again.

Palestinians want their land back, but they're being led by Haman, who are terrorists. Israelis want to control all of the lands within their state's boundaries, but they are being led by Zionists, who are extreme right-wing, militant, nationalists. That is the bottom line here, and neither side will change unless they are wiped out or some third parties intervene and enforce some kind of agreement that is based on a two-state solution.

The IDF has killed almost 70,000 Palestinians since 7 Oct, but I never said (to my recollection) that the Zionists' intentions were to kill all Palestinians. I believe in that context, I used the word "eliminate," which could mean kill, but could also mean the removal of them. (Which, by the way, CNN has reported this morning they are starting to do in Rafah in Gaza.)

Not getting involved in the debate on the ceasefire proposals with you as the current Hamas demands are delusional and my opinion of your proposal remains the same, also delusional but your obvious mistake here of claiming 70,000 Palestinians since 7 Oct have been killed needs a correction from you.

WDSmart · February 10

1 hour ago, Bkk Brian said:

The IDF has killed almost 70,000 Palestinians since 7 Oct, but I never said (to my recollection) that the Zionists' intentions were to kill all Palestinians. I believe in that context, I used the word "eliminate," which could mean kill, but could also mean the removal of them. (Which, by the way, CNN has reported this morning they are starting to do in Rafah in Gaza.)

Not getting involved in the debate on the ceasefire proposals with you as the current Hamas demands are delusional and my opinion of your proposal remains the same, also delusional but your obvious mistake here of claiming 70,000 Palestinians since 7 Oct have been killed needs a correction from you.

My mistake! When I posted these numbers before, and when I did, I posted them correctly and noted the source for these numbers. My original post with the correct numbers was "almost 30,000 killed and 70,000 injured."

Israel-Gaza war in maps and charts: Live tracker | Israel War on Gaza News | Al Jazeera

Morch · February 10

3 hours ago, WDSmart said:

If the release of the hostages was part of an overall agreement and it was based on the completion of some actions by Isreal, like a ceasefire and withdrawal, or the establishment of some 3rd-party, neutral peacekeeping force, then the release of all the hostages, (like the last group) would supposedly happen when all that has occurred. If all that hadn't occurred, or if Hamas had not released the last group, then the agreement would have been violated, and the peacekeeping force should intervene and force compliance.

Hamas already violated the terms of the previous hostage release agreement.

A peacekeeping force could not 'intervene and force compliance' - that's not what they do, or what they are for. They are more like observers.

Bkk Brian · February 10

36 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

My mistake! When I posted these numbers before, and when I did, I posted them correctly and noted the source for these numbers. My original post with the correct numbers was "almost 30,000 killed and 70,000 injured."

Israel-Gaza war in maps and charts: Live tracker | Israel War on Gaza News | Al Jazeera

I wasn't responding to your previous posts, only this one that needed you to amend your error.

The death and injured figures that are issued daily by Hamas first need to be believed. Then once anyone's convinced themselves they are pretty accurate you have got to deduct the deaths and injuries from the failed rockets that Hamas has shot at Israel and landed back in Gaza. Then of course the current deaths of Hamas fighters are 10,000 that need to be deducted. As for how many Hamas fighters injured, well if 10,000 have been killed then thousands must have been injured.

Morch · February 10

2 hours ago, WDSmart said:

You are taking my words and twisting them to suit your purpose of trying to demean me and thereby implying that what I say is not true.

- The IDF has killed almost 70,000 Palestinians since 7 Oct, but I never said (to my recollection) that the Zionists' intentions were to kill all Palestinians. I believe in that context, I used the word "eliminate," which could mean kill, but could also mean the removal of them. (Which, by the way, CNN has reported this morning they are starting to do in Rafah in Gaza.)

- And I never said or suggested that Hamas was doing or considering releasing hostages as I suggested. I only suggested that would, IMO, be a good tactic to employ in an agreement.

Morch, you are just too biased to treat any opinions that don't fully support Israel's position in this conflict as mistaken, false, or even outright lies. I know it's impossible for you to do, but I'm getting really tired of responding you your complaints about my post over and over again.

Palestinians want their land back, but they're being led by Haman, who are terrorists. Israelis want to control all of the lands within their state's boundaries, but they are being led by Zionists, who are extreme right-wing, militant, nationalists. That is the bottom line here, and neither side will change unless they are wiped out or some third parties intervene and enforce some kind of agreement that is based on a two-state solution.

I have copy-pasted your own words, verbatim. You're 'recollection' has nothing to do with anything, I presented you with what you posted. Here it is again:

Quote

I see little value in a limited deal if, when it has been completed, Israel will just renew its killing of virtually all Palestinians within its state's boundaries

You can 'believe' what you want, but facts are that this is what you posted. I did not twist your words or alter them. What you may have meant, what lame backtracking you offer, this is neither here nor there - what you actually posted is real, not an 'opinion'. Also - 70,000? Why not 7 million while at it? Maybe it's your 'opinion' again? Who knows. The actual figures are, of course, much lower, and they include Hamas men. There is no need to 'imply' what you say is not true - it's simply not true.

As for your bogus second complaint regarding hostage exchange tactics - it was not claimed that Hamas was doing or considering to do so. That was part of the point - it was more to do with you going an extra mile, that extra step to where even Hamas did not dare tread. Either you completely failed to comprehend this (how?) or you're willfully deflecting with some nonsense 'objection' to something imaginary.

Here are your words again:

Quote

I'd recommend that any hostages needing medical attention and the elderly be released during the first phase, but the rest of the hostages should be released during the next two or three phases in the reverse order suggested above. The next group would be single men, and the last group would be women with children and lone children.

Go on and talk some more about lies....why don't you.

Regarding your last bit:

The Palestinians are not led by Hamas (nice Freudian slip there with Haman, echoing Netanyahu's Amalek reference). Palestinian politics have been dominated by schism between two main factions/parties for years now - Hamas and the PA/Fatah. Hamas does not lead all Palestinians, and arguably, not even all Gazans. In the same way, you misrepresent Israel's positions and political situation, again using your own home-made nonsense terminology which got no bearing in real life. You've been doing this from the start, and still at it - despite this being addressed numerous times. Zionists are not what you claim, there are moderate Zionists, pro-peace Zionists and so on. There is no 'bottom line' such as you claim.

WDSmart · February 10

1 hour ago, Morch said:

I have copy-pasted your own words, verbatim. You're 'recollection' has nothing to do with anything, I presented you with what you posted. Here it is again:

You can 'believe' what you want, but facts are that this is what you posted. I did not twist your words or alter them. What you may have meant, what lame backtracking you offer, this is neither here nor there - what you actually posted is real, not an 'opinion'. Also - 70,000? Why not 7 million while at it? Maybe it's your 'opinion' again? Who knows. The actual figures are, of course, much lower, and they include Hamas men. There is no need to 'imply' what you say is not true - it's simply not true.

As for your bogus second complaint regarding hostage exchange tactics - it was not claimed that Hamas was doing or considering to do so. That was part of the point - it was more to do with you going an extra mile, that extra step to where even Hamas did not dare tread. Either you completely failed to comprehend this (how?) or you're willfully deflecting with some nonsense 'objection' to something imaginary.

Here are your words again:

Go on and talk some more about lies....why don't you.

Regarding your last bit:

The Palestinians are not led by Hamas (nice Freudian slip there with Haman, echoing Netanyahu's Amalek reference). Palestinian politics have been dominated by schism between two main factions/parties for years now - Hamas and the PA/Fatah. Hamas does not lead all Palestinians, and arguably, not even all Gazans. In the same way, you misrepresent Israel's positions and political situation, again using your own home-made nonsense terminology which got no bearing in real life. You've been doing this from the start, and still at it - despite this being addressed numerous times. Zionists are not what you claim, there are moderate Zionists, pro-peace Zionists and so on. There is no 'bottom line' such as you claim.

I admitted my typing error and corrected it to what I originally posted with a link four or five posts ago, which is "almost 30,000 were killed and 70,000 wounded." And many more than that displaced.

The hostage exchange tactics were my recommendation only. From what I've recently seen, Hamas offers to do this in just the opposite order.

You claim, "Hamas does not lead all Palestinians, and arguably, not even all Gazans." I don't disagree, but then it's now becoming obvious that Netanyahu and his government do not lead all the Israelis. So, what's the difference? Both of these "leaders" are the ones in charge right now.

Zionists are a right-wing, militant, nationalistic faction that is trying to gain complete control over all the land in the state of Israel.

"Zionism, Jewish nationalist movement that has had as its goal the creation and support of a Jewish national state in Palestine, the ancient homeland of the Jews (Hebrew: Eretz Yisraʾel, “the Land of Israel”)."
Zionism | Definition, History, Examples, & Facts | Britannica

WDSmart · February 10

IDF to start invading Rafah, Gaza

"Netanyahu on Thursday said that the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) would “soon go into Rafah, Hamas’s last bastion.” The top commander in charge of Israel’s military operation in southern Gaza told CNN on Sunday that there was no plan in place yet for how to minimize civilian deaths in Rafah."
Netanyahu directs Israeli military to draw up plan to evacuate more than one million people from Rafah as offensive looms | CNN

This is just proof of the ongoing military plan to eliminate as many Palestinians from Gaza, and probably soon, the West Bank, as possible. This announcement by Israel is finally having the effect it should have long ago - the waning of support for Israel's bloody onslaught by members of the UN and the entire world community, including the USA.

The citizens of Rafah have no place to go. The IDF's previous commitments to a "safety zone" or "safe passage" have proven to be false, so even if they do propose one, it is not likely that Palestinians will believe them, or that it will be provided as promised.
‘Our last stop is Rafah’: trapped Palestinians await Israeli onslaught | Israel-Gaza war | The Guardian

Hopefully, before the IDF can start their indiscriminate killings, the UN and the world's governments will step up and put pressure on Israel to cease and start negotiating a settlement in good faith with the Palestinians instead of just referring to Hamas' latest offer as "delusional."
‘Our last stop is Rafah’: trapped Palestinians await Israeli onslaught | Israel-Gaza war | The Guardian

Bkk Brian · February 10

43 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

IDF to start invading Rafah, Gaza

"Netanyahu on Thursday said that the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) would “soon go into Rafah, Hamas’s last bastion.” The top commander in charge of Israel’s military operation in southern Gaza told CNN on Sunday that there was no plan in place yet for how to minimize civilian deaths in Rafah."
Netanyahu directs Israeli military to draw up plan to evacuate more than one million people from Rafah as offensive looms | CNN

This is just proof of the ongoing military plan to eliminate as many Palestinians from Gaza, and probably soon, the West Bank, as possible. This announcement by Israel is finally having the effect it should have long ago - the waning of support for Israel's bloody onslaught by members of the UN and the entire world community, including the USA.

The citizens of Rafah have no place to go. The IDF's previous commitments to a "safety zone" or "safe passage" have proven to be false, so even if they do propose one, it is not likely that Palestinians will believe them, or that it will be provided as promised.
‘Our last stop is Rafah’: trapped Palestinians await Israeli onslaught | Israel-Gaza war | The Guardian

Hopefully, before the IDF can start their indiscriminate killings, the UN and the world's governments will step up and put pressure on Israel to cease and start negotiating a settlement in good faith with the Palestinians instead of just referring to Hamas' latest offer as "delusional."
‘Our last stop is Rafah’: trapped Palestinians await Israeli onslaught | Israel-Gaza war | The Guardian

You've been accusing others of going off topic but perhaps take a look at what you do next time. Here is the Rafah topic:

As Israel attacks Rafah, US offers only words of caution

https://aseannow.com/topic/1319532-as-israel-attacks-rafah-us-offers-only-words-of-caution

WDSmart · February 10

20 minutes ago, Bkk Brian said:

You've been accusing others of going off topic but perhaps take a look at what you do next time. Here is the Rafah topic:

As Israel attacks Rafah, US offers only words of caution

https://aseannow.com/topic/1319532-as-israel-attacks-rafah-us-offers-only-words-of-caution

Thanks, I didn't know there was a new separate Rafah Topic. I'll post my post there.

Morch · February 10

2 hours ago, WDSmart said:

I admitted my typing error and corrected it to what I originally posted with a link four or five posts ago, which is "almost 30,000 were killed and 70,000 wounded." And many more than that displaced.

The hostage exchange tactics were my recommendation only. From what I've recently seen, Hamas offers to do this in just the opposite order.

You claim, "Hamas does not lead all Palestinians, and arguably, not even all Gazans." I don't disagree, but then it's now becoming obvious that Netanyahu and his government do not lead all the Israelis. So, what's the difference? Both of these "leaders" are the ones in charge right now.

Zionists are a right-wing, militant, nationalistic faction that is trying to gain complete control over all the land in the state of Israel.

"Zionism, Jewish nationalist movement that has had as its goal the creation and support of a Jewish national state in Palestine, the ancient homeland of the Jews (Hebrew: Eretz Yisraʾel, “the Land of Israel”)."
Zionism | Definition, History, Examples, & Facts | Britannica

So...you're just going to gloss over them lies regarding what you posted about Israelis' intentions? Claiming it wants to kill all the Palestinians etc?

Of these 30,000...how many are Hamas men?

As for the hostage exchange tactics - yes, I'm aware that this was you 'recommendation'. It's been clear from the start. That's exactly the reason it's being criticized. What is it that you don't get about it?

So you claim the Palestinians are led by Hamas on one post, now you do do not disagree with the opposite - which is it? As for Netanyahu and his government do not lead all the Israelis - I've no idea what you mean by that. Netanyahu leads an elected government, and there's a whole lot of public resistance to said government and it's policies. It's how things are in countries supporting a democratic system. The difference would be that on the Palestinian side, there were not elections held for over a decade, so the question of either leadership (Hamas vs. PA/Fatah) legitimacy is questionable. And no, Hamas is not 'in charge' of things in the West Bank, nor really in the Gaza Strip, as of now. If you don't know what you're talking about - why post?

You can go on with your personal nonsense definitions of Zionism. Beyond your closed mind, they do not mean a whole lot. Many Israelis define themselves as Zionist, but vote for Centrist/Left wing parties, or are pro-peace, and support a two-state solution. You claiming otherwise and citing dictionary items which do not even make your point is beyond ridiculous.

Morch · February 10

16 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

Thanks, I didn't know there was a new separate Rafah Topic. I'll post my post there.

Yeah, it's quite obvious you're not big on the paying-attention department.

Nick Carter icp · February 10

On 2/9/2024 at 4:58 AM, Neeranam said:

Negotiations?

Israel are trying to kill all of Hamas. Do you know what percentage of Hamas they have already killed?

They have flattened the majority of Gaza and you know that very well.

I believe that Hamas have four Battalions left and they are all in Khan Yunis and the IDF are preparing to go into Khan Yunis and once the last four Hamas battalions have been wiped out .

This stage of the war will be complete

Morch · February 11

11 hours ago, Nick Carter icp said:

I believe that Hamas have four Battalions left and they are all in Khan Yunis and the IDF are preparing to go into Khan Yunis and once the last four Hamas battalions have been wiped out .

This stage of the war will be complete

As I understand it what the IDF said is that there was one operational left in 'battalion' in Khan Yunis. 4 more in Rafah.

Now, this ought to be taken with a bit of salt, as it's also probably meant for the other side's consumption. IDF definition of them 'battalions' becoming non-operational is not that all were killed, but that enough of the command chain (and especially those at the top and key positions) were eliminated, a significant amount of the 'grunts' out of circulation, and no coordinated operations carried out.

billd766 · February 12

On 2/9/2024 at 7:32 PM, retarius said:

No, the Hamas have not been indiscriminate, they targetted their prey as terrorists do, the Israeli reaction is an abomination and outside of anything permitted by law? Do you think the IDF should be allowed to do operate outside international laws with zero limits on their brutality????? Sorry mate, one side is good, the Palestinian side and one side is evil.

IMHO the combatants on both sides are much the same and deserve each other, HOWEVER the suffering is far greater on the Palestinian side, where innocent men, women and children are slaughtered on a daily and indiscriminate basis by the IDF.

Here is an example from the BBC during the past several days,

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68261286

Audio recordings of calls between Hind and emergency call operators suggest that the six-year-old was the only one left alive in the car, hiding from Israeli forces among the bodies of her relatives.

Her pleas for someone to rescue her ended when the phone line was cut amid the sound of more gunfire.

Paramedics from the Palestinian Red Crescent Society (PRCS) managed on Saturday to reach the area, which had previously been closed off as an active combat zone.

They found the black Kia car Hind had been travelling in - its windscreen and dashboard smashed to pieces, bullet holes scattered across the side.

A few metres away were the remains of another vehicle - completely burnt out, its engine spilling onto the ground. This, the Red Crescent says, is the ambulance sent to fetch Hind.

Its crew - Yusuf al-Zeino and Ahmed al-Madhoun - were killed when the ambulance was bombed by Israeli forces, the organisation says.

In a statement, the PRCS accused Israel of deliberately targeting the ambulance, as soon as it arrived at the scene on 29 January.

"The [Israeli] occupation deliberately targeted the Red Crescent crew despite obtaining prior coordination to allow the ambulance to arrive at the scene to rescue the child Hind," it said.

The PRCS told the BBC that it had taken several hours to coordinate access with the Israeli army, in order to send paramedics to Hind.

Or from this mornings BBC News website.

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-68271878

Israel says two male Israeli hostages have been rescued in Rafah, as Israeli air strikes hit the southern Gazan city
The Israeli military says Fernando Simon Marman, 60, and Louis Har, 70, are in "good medical condition"
Israel says there was "aerial coverage and a wave of strikes" to accompany the hostage raid
A spokesman for the Hamas-run health ministry says at least 67 Palestinians were killed in the strikes
It follows warnings from the international community over Israel's planned offensive in the city, where 1.5 million people are sheltering
Israel launched its operations in Gaza after more than 1,200 people were killed on 7 October by Hamas, who also took 253 people hostage
The Hamas-run health ministry in Gaza says more than 28,100 Palestinians have been killed and more than 67,500 injured since then.

Yet if ~~Israel~~ Netanyahu had agreed to the ceasefire plan proposed, most likely the hostages would have been released and nobody would have been killed or injured

Bkk Brian · February 12

3 minutes ago, billd766 said:

IMHO the combatants on both sides are much the same and deserve each other, HOWEVRE the suffering is far greater on the Palestinian side, where innocent men, women and children are slaughtered on a daily and indiscriminate basis by the IDF.

Here is an example from the BBC during the past several days,

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68261286

Audio recordings of calls between Hind and emergency call operators suggest that the six-year-old was the only one left alive in the car, hiding from Israeli forces among the bodies of her relatives.

Her pleas for someone to rescue her ended when the phone line was cut amid the sound of more gunfire.

Paramedics from the Palestinian Red Crescent Society (PRCS) managed on Saturday to reach the area, which had previously been closed off as an active combat zone.

They found the black Kia car Hind had been travelling in - its windscreen and dashboard smashed to pieces, bullet holes scattered across the side.

A few metres away were the remains of another vehicle - completely burnt out, its engine spilling onto the ground. This, the Red Crescent says, is the ambulance sent to fetch Hind.

Its crew - Yusuf al-Zeino and Ahmed al-Madhoun - were killed when the ambulance was bombed by Israeli forces, the organisation says.

In a statement, the PRCS accused Israel of deliberately targeting the ambulance, as soon as it arrived at the scene on 29 January.

"The [Israeli] occupation deliberately targeted the Red Crescent crew despite obtaining prior coordination to allow the ambulance to arrive at the scene to rescue the child Hind," it said.

The PRCS told the BBC that it had taken several hours to coordinate access with the Israeli army, in order to send paramedics to Hind.

Or from this mornings BBC News website.

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-68271878

Israel says two male Israeli hostages have been rescued in Rafah, as Israeli air strikes hit the southern Gazan city
The Israeli military says Fernando Simon Marman, 60, and Louis Har, 70, are in "good medical condition"
Israel says there was "aerial coverage and a wave of strikes" to accompany the hostage raid
A spokesman for the Hamas-run health ministry says at least 67 Palestinians were killed in the strikes
It follows warnings from the international community over Israel's planned offensive in the city, where 1.5 million people are sheltering
Israel launched its operations in Gaza after more than 1,200 people were killed on 7 October by Hamas, who also took 253 people hostage
The Hamas-run health ministry in Gaza says more than 28,100 Palestinians have been killed and more than 67,500 injured since then.

Yet if ~~Israel~~ Netanyahu had agreed to the ceasefire plan proposed, most likely the hostages would have been released and nobody would have been killed or injured

If only the terrorists Hamas had not broken the last ceasefire and hostage prisoner exchange back in late Nov eh

thaibeachlovers · February 12

On 2/9/2024 at 7:05 PM, billd766 said:

I am not so sure that if the USA halted all arms shipments to Israel, that it would make that much difference, certainly in the short term.

I can't agree. If that was correct, why are the US and various European countries supplying munitions? Western governments must know many of their citizens don't support the conflict, and risk electoral punishment for doing so. For sure Biden will be punished in states with large Arab origin populations.

If israel could supply it's lethal material, western countries could focus on non lethal and defensive assistance, but obviously it can't.

Morch · February 13

16 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I can't agree. If that was correct, why are the US and various European countries supplying munitions? Western governments must know many of their citizens don't support the conflict, and risk electoral punishment for doing so. For sure Biden will be punished in states with large Arab origin populations.

If israel could supply it's lethal material, western countries could focus on non lethal and defensive assistance, but obviously it can't.

Maybe these governments do not fully share your terrorist appeasement and support stance.

And, of course, not all the voters world wide share your warped views either.

billd766 · February 13

7 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I can't agree. If that was correct, why are the US and various European countries supplying munitions? Western governments must know many of their citizens don't support the conflict, and risk electoral punishment for doing so. For sure Biden will be punished in states with large Arab origin populations.

If israel could supply it's lethal material, western countries could focus on non lethal and defensive assistance, but obviously it can't.

Well the Israeli Defence Industry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_industry_of_Israel

and is the 6th largest arms exporter in the world as of 2014. Much of the exports are sold to the United States and Europe. Other major regions that purchase Israeli defense equipment include Southeast Asia and Latin America.[7][8][9] India is also major country for Israeli arms exports and has remained Israel's largest arms market in the world.

It is possible that if the USA, EU and the UK cancelled their arms exports to Israel , then Israel could possibly expand its own weapons industry, postpone exports (subject to renegotiation of contracts) and build and supply enough their own forces for some time. This would also depend on how many workers have been called up as reservists, (or not if they were essential personnel). It would also entail buying extra stocks of war grade materials or using up their existing stock whilst trying to obtain more.

If and how that would be possible I have no idea.

Whilst western governments understand the risks of electoral problems in the future, IIRC only the USA has an election in the middle distance.

If they punish the Democrats by not voting for them in November, the only option at this time is Trump and the gop, so they are sort of stuck between the devil and the deep blue sea, with no real home to turn to.

Bkk Brian · February 13

22 hours ago, billd766 said:

IMHO the combatants on both sides are much the same and deserve each other, HOWEVER the suffering is far greater on the Palestinian side, where innocent men, women and children are slaughtered on a daily and indiscriminate basis by the IDF.

Here is an example from the BBC during the past several days,

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68261286

Audio recordings of calls between Hind and emergency call operators suggest that the six-year-old was the only one left alive in the car, hiding from Israeli forces among the bodies of her relatives.

Her pleas for someone to rescue her ended when the phone line was cut amid the sound of more gunfire.

Paramedics from the Palestinian Red Crescent Society (PRCS) managed on Saturday to reach the area, which had previously been closed off as an active combat zone.

They found the black Kia car Hind had been travelling in - its windscreen and dashboard smashed to pieces, bullet holes scattered across the side.

A few metres away were the remains of another vehicle - completely burnt out, its engine spilling onto the ground. This, the Red Crescent says, is the ambulance sent to fetch Hind.

Its crew - Yusuf al-Zeino and Ahmed al-Madhoun - were killed when the ambulance was bombed by Israeli forces, the organisation says.

In a statement, the PRCS accused Israel of deliberately targeting the ambulance, as soon as it arrived at the scene on 29 January.

"The [Israeli] occupation deliberately targeted the Red Crescent crew despite obtaining prior coordination to allow the ambulance to arrive at the scene to rescue the child Hind," it said.

The PRCS told the BBC that it had taken several hours to coordinate access with the Israeli army, in order to send paramedics to Hind.

Or from this mornings BBC News website.

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-68271878

Israel says two male Israeli hostages have been rescued in Rafah, as Israeli air strikes hit the southern Gazan city
The Israeli military says Fernando Simon Marman, 60, and Louis Har, 70, are in "good medical condition"
Israel says there was "aerial coverage and a wave of strikes" to accompany the hostage raid
A spokesman for the Hamas-run health ministry says at least 67 Palestinians were killed in the strikes
It follows warnings from the international community over Israel's planned offensive in the city, where 1.5 million people are sheltering
Israel launched its operations in Gaza after more than 1,200 people were killed on 7 October by Hamas, who also took 253 people hostage
The Hamas-run health ministry in Gaza says more than 28,100 Palestinians have been killed and more than 67,500 injured since then.

Yet if ~~Israel~~ Netanyahu had agreed to the ceasefire plan proposed, most likely the hostages would have been released and nobody would have been killed or injured

IMHO the combatants on both sides are much the same and deserve each other,

Can you explain why you think the IDF and the Hamas terrorists are the same and deserve each other?

Did you know it was Hamas that broke the last ceasefire deal?

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