Important video clarifications on the new taxes for foreign residents in the Swiss embassy

[Mike Lister]

28 minutes ago, mokwit said:

Is this based on your actual experience of filing in Thailand whilst receiving funds from a DTA country?

Yes. I receive income from three countries, one of which is exempt under terms of a DTA and I simply say it is DTA exempt. (I allow the RD staff to complete my return online, which is in Thai. I feed them the numbers and explain what it is and they do the data entry. At the end, they print off the bottom line which has to agree with my spreadsheet version....and it always does).

 

Filing a tax return here is not too different from filing a tax return in the UK or US. You complete the return and submit it, 99% of times that's the end of the matter. It's only if there's an audit or the RD spots something suspicious or has additional information that there's a next step and proof is requested.

[Mike Lister]

1 hour ago, mokwit said:

Is this based on your actual experience of filing in Thailand whilst receiving funds from a DTA country?

Further to my previous reply:

 

Note also that there is no space provided on the Thai tax return to show DTA excluded income hence it must be omitted. That however may change this year, if and when the form is redesigned to cater for the new changes.

[Mike Lister]

1 hour ago, BE88 said:

 

I don't want to continue talking to you because I have known your intentions for a long time but for the reason that you take part of one of my sentences out of context I answer you the only thing you are saying is wrong and leads us into error.

 

It is your choice to engage with me or not, that is your prerogative. Writing here at this moment as another poster of Asean Now, I can assure you that I have no connection with any tax consultancy inside or outside Thailand, nor am I connected in any way to any organisation globally that may benefit in any way from anything I write here, on any subject, nor do I benefit in any way, directly or indirectly from writing those things. That said, I worked for Deloittes in the City of London for four years during the 1980's and they are of course one of the Big 4, or Big 6 as they were then. But I have not maintained contact with any member of the firm, beyond the year 2000. After leaving Deloitte I started my own business which was based around international management consultancy and large scale program management, mostly in the telecommunications sector and  Finance sectors, a majority of which has been in the US, Asia Pacific and China.

 

Moving on to the video and speaking this time as a Moderator: I have seen many AN members post videos from different sources, all discussing the Thai tax issues. Roughly 99.9% of them have proved to be inaccurate, misleading and a waste of my time hence I have not bothered viewing any video on the subject, from any source. Early member posts in the thread that you started indicate that the video you posted was not sufficiently reliable or useful to make me want to change my mind.

 

In the Simple Tax Guide that we constructed, there is a section that contains links to all the major tax consultancies in Thailand and also to the Thai Revenue Department, those places continue to be my sole source of information on the subject of Thai tax. I list those links below, as a reference:

 

SOURCES OF TAX INFORMATION

 

70) There are several sources of detailed tax information and these web sites are linked below. The first link is to The Thai Revenue Department Tax Rules which is the most important one which everyone should use as their initial point of reference. The link is to an English language translation of the Revenue Department Law and contains the Revenue Code:

71) https://www.rd.go.th/english/6045.html

72) https://sherrings.com/personal-income-tax-in-thailand.html

73) https://www.mazars.co.th/Home/Insights/Doing-Business-in-Thailand/Payroll/Personal-Income-Tax

 

 

Lastly, and speaking once again as a Moderator of AN: I will continue to comment and intervene in any thread that discusses taxation in Thailand, especially where I think the information supplied by posters is detrimental, inaccurate, incomplete or misleading and I will delete any sources and statements that I believe jeopardise members financial security, as far as tax regulations are concerned. I will also temporarily hide and then refer to Admin, any members posts that attempt to seriously undermine our efforts to produce and provide independent and accurate guidance to members regarding Thai taxation.

 

If anyone has concerns about anything I post in this respect, I strongly urge them to contact Admin to discuss their concerns.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[CartagenaWarlock]

2 hours ago, motdaeng said:

why do you think the swiss pension is barred from taxation in thailand?

as far as I know, that is incorrect!

Because the guy in the video says so. And for the US, I've verified that SS is excluded. I have read comments saying that nothing like that was mentioned in the DTT with the UK.  

[lordgrinz]

2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

(I allow the RD staff to complete my return online, which is in Thai. I feed them the numbers and explain what it is and they do the data entry. At the end, they print off the bottom line which has to agree with my spreadsheet version....and it always does).

 

Can you expand on that? So we get a free tax preparer at the RD?

[Mike Lister]

13 minutes ago, CartagenaWarlock said:

Because the guy in the video says so. And for the US, I've verified that SS is excluded. I have read comments saying that nothing like that was mentioned in the DTT with the UK.  

Those things are correct

[Mike Lister]

4 minutes ago, lordgrinz said:

 

Can you expand on that? So we get a free tax preparer at the RD?

The Thai RD has always been, in my personal experience, the most helpful of all government departments. Historically, I prepare my tax returns (I file UK, US and Thai tax returns) on spreadsheets so that I understand what the numbers are. In the case of the Thai tax return, I take my spreadsheet down to the District Tax Office and tell them I want to file a return, online (I already have a tax account) and can they help me because I don't read Thai (the online system in is Thai). Somebody will be assigned to assist me and I tell them what to enter, job done.

[jayboy]

On 2/29/2024 at 8:11 PM, Mike Lister said:

I haven't watched the video and don't intend to

 

What an odd comment.It only takes a few minutes and as far as I know it's the only briefing that has been given by a senior source in the Revenue Department.

[Mike Lister]

47 minutes ago, jayboy said:

 

What an odd comment.It only takes a few minutes and as far as I know it's the only briefing that has been given by a senior source in the Revenue Department.

The video is 67 minutes long, not just a few minutes. The comments made by posters, including the OP, mostly indicate that the video is incomplete and the information vague, particularly as it relates to Immigration, others have suggested it is not worthwhile and doesn't contain new information not already understood.  I have watched several videos posted by members on Thai tax in the past and have wasted a lot of my time, only to find out that they also were a waste of time. My policy now is to restrict where my information comes from. If others have watched the video and gained information from it, I'm happy that they have and suggest they also might want to read the simple tax guide as well.

 

The RD has held a series of Q&A sessions that have been reported by the tax consultancies and they have been linked in the tax threads. I think that sessions such as those, attended by tax experts where the dialogue is two way and ambiguities can be clarified in real time and reported, are better than a scripted video that has a political bent. 

 

I might also add that my role is to moderate the forum which involves reading hundreds of posts and making decisions on things that are posted. I cannot afford to spend 67 minutes of my time reviewing individual videos, I have to have some form of sifting mechanism that allows me to make a judgement on what to view and posters comments are just that in many cases.

 

That's just me, others may have a different opinion.

 

 

 

[BE88]

On 3/1/2024 at 9:01 AM, Mike Lister said:

It is your choice to engage with me or not, that is your prerogative. Writing here at this moment as another poster of Asean Now, I can assure you that I have no connection with any tax consultancy inside or outside Thailand, nor am I connected in any way to any organisation globally that may benefit in any way from anything I write here, on any subject, nor do I benefit in any way, directly or indirectly from writing those things. That said, I worked for Deloittes in the City of London for four years during the 1980's and they are of course one of the Big 4, or Big 6 as they were then. But I have not maintained contact with any member of the firm, beyond the year 2000. After leaving Deloitte I started my own business which was based around international management consultancy and large scale program management, mostly in the telecommunications sector and  Finance sectors, a majority of which has been in the US, Asia Pacific and China.

 

Moving on to the video and speaking this time as a Moderator: I have seen many AN members post videos from different sources, all discussing the Thai tax issues. Roughly 99.9% of them have proved to be inaccurate, misleading and a waste of my time hence I have not bothered viewing any video on the subject, from any source. Early member posts in the thread that you started indicate that the video you posted was not sufficiently reliable or useful to make me want to change my mind.

 

In the Simple Tax Guide that we constructed, there is a section that contains links to all the major tax consultancies in Thailand and also to the Thai Revenue Department, those places continue to be my sole source of information on the subject of Thai tax. I list those links below, as a reference:

 

SOURCES OF TAX INFORMATION

 

70) There are several sources of detailed tax information and these web sites are linked below. The first link is to The Thai Revenue Department Tax Rules which is the most important one which everyone should use as their initial point of reference. The link is to an English language translation of the Revenue Department Law and contains the Revenue Code:

71) https://www.rd.go.th/english/6045.html

72) https://sherrings.com/personal-income-tax-in-thailand.html

73) https://www.mazars.co.th/Home/Insights/Doing-Business-in-Thailand/Payroll/Personal-Income-Tax

 

 

Lastly, and speaking once again as a Moderator of AN: I will continue to comment and intervene in any thread that discusses taxation in Thailand, especially where I think the information supplied by posters is detrimental, inaccurate, incomplete or misleading and I will delete any sources and statements that I believe jeopardise members financial security, as far as tax regulations are concerned. I will also temporarily hide and then refer to Admin, any members posts that attempt to seriously undermine our efforts to produce and provide independent and accurate guidance to members regarding Thai taxation.

 

If anyone has concerns about anything I post in this respect, I strongly urge them to contact Admin to discuss their concerns.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you Mike for warning me and thank you for know us whoo are you.

Now I finally understand how you reason, certainly due to the professional deformation that you were taught. I don't know about the UK but in other European countries you can't do your own tax return without relying on an expert tax expert, the funny thing is that if your expert tax expert makes a mistake it's you who has to pay the fine. This is to tell you that a good financial advisor never tells us  how the simple reality is but he prefers to give you so much information at the end of the speech that you are sure you have not understood anything.

 

If you think I have offended you again with this answer of mine, go ahead.

 

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, BE88 said:

 

Thank you Mike for warning me and thank you for know us whoo are you.

Now I finally understand how you reason, certainly due to the professional deformation that you were taught. I don't know about the UK but in other European countries you can't do your own tax return without relying on an expert tax expert, the funny thing is that if your expert tax expert makes a mistake it's you who has to pay the fine. This is to tell you that a good financial advisor never tells us  how the simple reality is but he prefers to give you so much information at the end of the speech that you are sure you have not understood anything.

 

If you think I have offended you again with this answer of mine, go ahead.

 

Tax return preparation in the countries in which I have lived for any period of time, USA, UK and Thailand, all allow taxpayers to prepare and file their own returns. They all have systems in place to where basic tax returns are simple to do in this day and age, often online. 

 

There is nothing in the Simple Tax Guide to suggest or claim that I or anyone else connected with its construction regards themselves as a tax expert. On the contrary, anyone who has read the guide will instantly understand that the document is littered with disclaimers stating that we are not those things. The other thing that readers of the document will understand is that it is a series of quotes and links, not advice, other than the basic statements that people must pay taxes and must defer to reliable sources of information, primarily the RD and secondly to the major tax consultancies.

 

You are not the first to challenge the construction of a tax guide for our members, others have done similar on various grounds, despite several CPA's and various experienced and qualified individuals volunteering lots of their time to facilitate its construction. We periodically reach a point where we question whether the effort is actually worth the aggravation and I find myself at that point yet again. In the past it has only been the hundreds of messages of support and thanks from members who have had their minds put at rest and the thanks they have proffered that have allowed us to continue. But I can easily put all this work aside and walk away and I will not suffer as a result. If that is what you would have us do, please feel free to say and I will make it happen in an instant.

 

 

 

[BE88]

27 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Tax return preparation in the countries in which I have lived for any period of time, USA, UK and Thailand, all allow taxpayers to prepare and file their own returns. They all have systems in place to where basic tax returns are simple to do in this day and age, often online. 

 

There is nothing in the Simple Tax Guide to suggest or claim that I or anyone else connected with its construction regards themselves as a tax expert. On the contrary, anyone who has read the guide will instantly understand that the document is littered with disclaimers stating that we are not those things. The other thing that readers of the document will understand is that it is a series of quotes and links, not advice, other than the basic statements that people must pay taxes and must defer to reliable sources of information, primarily the RD and secondly to the major tax consultancies.

 

You are not the first to challenge the construction of a tax guide for our members, others have done similar on various grounds, despite several CPA's and various experienced and qualified individuals volunteering lots of their time to facilitate its construction. We periodically reach a point where we question whether the effort is actually worth the aggravation and I find myself at that point yet again. In the past it has only been the hundreds of messages of support and thanks from members who have had their minds put at rest and the thanks they have proffered that have allowed us to continue. But I can easily put all this work aside and walk away and I will not suffer as a result. If that is what you would have us do, please feel free to say and I will make it happen in an instant.

 

 

 

 

Mike don't play the victim now please, even if you know what I think that doesn't mean that many appreciate what you say, everyone has their own opinion.

 

The situation is so complex as was read in the comments on the Embassy video, that no one still understands anything.

 

Being the first time that Thailand has imposed this new directive it seems that even those who should apply it do not yet know how to apply it, so at least this lawyer who spoke in the Swiss Embassy said that everything that arrives as money in Thailand will be taxed unless you can prove that you have already paid your taxes.

Now many cannot prove it for various reasons, loss of documents, many too many years behind in savings without proving documents etc..

Only if you invest a million dollars then they won't ask you anything, as by chance the Thai billionaires won't have to worry.

 

Result we should fill out the declaration in Thai even if according to this lawyer they promised to perhaps be able to do it in English.

 

Now and I insist on this point, who would still be so stupid and reckless to send money as an investment or something else without incurring high taxation?

 

. I think the Thai government has not adequately reflected on this.

[Sydebolle]

On 2/29/2024 at 4:38 PM, jayboy said:

 

What a pointless comment.In my opinion the ambassador did an excellent job.I

Glad to hear, that you enjoyed the clip then - lets agree to disagree 😉 

[Mike Lister]

4 minutes ago, BE88 said:

 

Mike don't play the victim now please, even if you know what I think that doesn't mean that many appreciate what you say, everyone has their own opinion.

 

The situation is so complex as was read in the comments on the Embassy video, that no one still understands anything.

 

Being the first time that Thailand has imposed this new directive it seems that even those who should apply it do not yet know how to apply it, so at least this lawyer who spoke in the Swiss Embassy said that everything that arrives as money in Thailand will be taxed unless you can prove that you have already paid your taxes.

Now many cannot prove it for various reasons, loss of documents, many too many years behind in savings without proving documents etc..

Only if you invest a million dollars then they won't ask you anything, as by chance the Thai billionaires won't have to worry.

 

Result we should fill out the declaration in Thai even if according to this lawyer they promised to perhaps be able to do it in English.

 

Now and I insist on this point, who would still be so stupid and reckless to send money as an investment or something else without incurring high taxation?

 

. I think the Thai government has not adequately reflected on this.

"that everything that arrives as money in Thailand will be taxed unless you can prove that you have already paid your taxes". Once again, that is simply not true, but thanks to the Swiss Ambassador and the video, members who have heard that said will now have to decide for themselves, unfortunately, because that will cost them money unnecessarily in tax advice.  

 

Tell me, does the video tell viewers that any income earned before 1 January 2024 is exempt, because it is, the Revenue announced that in November 2023 and is well documented. See number 3 under Departmental Instructions in the link below:

 

https://sherrings.com/foreign-source-income-personal-tax-thailand.html

 

Enough of this, I'm done.

 

 

[Ben Zioner]

On 2/29/2024 at 7:58 PM, MikePBrown said:

20 million Baht also seems to be a high gift allowance - one can only think as to why this large allowance was included????

Naah.. No worries, they leave it there, just to nullify the effect of Paw 161 for certain kind of people, mostly Thai.

Edited March 2 by Ben Zioner

[Mike Lister]

6 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

"that everything that arrives as money in Thailand will be taxed unless you can prove that you have already paid your taxes". Once again, that is simply not true.

 

Tell me, does the video tell viewers that any income earned before 1 January 2024 is exempt, because it is, the Revenue announced that in November 2023 and is well documented.

 

5 hours ago, BE88 said:

Yes the lawyer said it on the video.

 

Well that's good, I'm glad that he knows that and that anyone who watched it all the way through will also. It does however beg the question, why did you post misleading and incorrect information in your own thread, exactly the things  that I challenged earlier when you wrote:

 

"No official statement has been made on this matter, it would appear that Thais consider any amount coming into Thailand to be taxable according to this video".

 

The facts are contrary to what you posted and the opposite of what the video stated!

 

 

 

[JimGant]

7 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

"that everything that arrives as money in Thailand will be taxed unless you can prove that you have already paid your taxes". Once again, that is simply not true, but thanks to the Swiss Ambassador and the video, members who have heard that said will now have to decide for themselves, unfortunately, because that will cost them money unnecessarily in tax advice.  

 

Bingo! A little common sense would show that all arriving monies will be considered "income," and maybe have withholding taxes -- is completely bonkers. You think the Thais are stupid enough to shoot FDI in the foot (rhetorical question). Or that banks will now be surrogate RD agents to address all incoming wires......... And I thought the Swiss were keen on financial matters......

[JackGats]

On 2/29/2024 at 10:54 AM, Ben Zioner said:

Great to hear from the "Horse's" mouth that LTR holders are exempt from foreign sourced Income Tax.

Yeah, horse's mouth in the vid at 31:40, for those with a personal interest in the LTR visa.

[Mike Lister]

Moderator Note

 

I have removed a couple of posts that were nothing more than circular and argumentative. Statements have very clearly been made earlier in the thread that are proven incorrect and are now becoming argumentative, any continuation of them will also be removed.

 

I cannot see anywhere that this thread introduces any new facts into the debate about tax that wasn't previously known, understood and documented. Similarly, I cannot see where anything that has been documented thus far is now challenged or proven incorrect, as a result of new information in this thread. The video has confirmed once again that the LTR visa is exempt but that had previously been confirmed at the Q&A with the RD in January. 

 

I see no benefit to members in leaving this thread open but I can see a significant downside for them because  misleading, incomplete and inaccurate statements have been made. It is proven untrue that, "all financial transfers in Thailand will be taxed unless taxes have been paid in the country of origin", the Thai Revenue Code confirms this is the case. Any income earned before 1 January 2024 will NOT be taxed. Any income that is exempt under DTA rules will also NOT be taxed. No transfers themselves are taxed, only the funds in them are subject to a tax return assessment which allows TEDA to be applied to them and means the funds MAY NOT be taxable. Finally, any income that is taxed in the home country, can use that tax to OFFSET any potential Tax in Thailand. IF the level of tax in the home country is the same or higher than in Thailand, no further tax will be due here, if it lower, Thai tax MAY be due.

 

This thread is  now closed.