Foreigners and their overseas income: what next?

[Mike Lister]

5 minutes ago, Dogmatix said:

 

Yes. Most likely you will need to pay the difference, if the Thai tax is more than the UK tax.  But they haven't clarified that yet and maybe never will, nor have they clarified what documentation will be acceptable to claim tax credits for tax already paid, assuming tax credits can be deducted and they don't force you to pay full Thai tax and try and reclaim what has been paid elsewhere. Thai bureaucrats would like tax receipts certified by a government but you will never get that from HMRC.  They won't ever respond to a request for that.  Also, bear in mind the tax years are out of synch with the UK being 6 April to 5 April and Thailand being 1 Jan to 31 Dec.  So you, if you remit your pensions to Thailand monthly, you will not have anything to show you paid tax on remittances from May to December when you file your Thai tax. 

 

To date there is nowhere on the Thai tax return form to claim a tax credit and the forms are only in Thai.  There are translations for guidance only but they are usually inaccurate. I have found the translation to omit new item, e.g. the new tax return may have added an item 17 in Thai but the English translation finishes at item 16 because they just cut and paste the previous year's one without adding the update.  You can go along to RD offices with you information and ask the ladies there to fill in your tax return for you but God help you, if you live in the sticks and they are only used to doing tax returns for rice merchants and the like. 

FWIW we have been through that posters finances in great detail, several times and there is no Thai tax liability but there are anxiety issues which are not helped by all the uncertainty. This is one of the problems trying to comment on different peoples tax situation, you never understand the person behind the post you're reading so everyone needs to be very careful.

Edited April 4 by Mike Lister

[Dogmatix]

5 hours ago, whitefarang said:

In general, many people would argue that it is not fair for visa holders to pay taxes without receiving any benefits in return. Taxation is typically viewed as a social contract between citizens and the government, where individuals contribute a portion of their income to fund public services and infrastructure that benefit society as a whole. When individuals are taxed without receiving any benefits, it can be perceived as unjust or inequitable . And that is exactly the way I perceive it ! 

 

The Thai bureaucrats and politicians don't care.  The Thai Revenue Code has always said anyone who spends more than 180 days in the Kingdom is a Thai tax residents and liable to pay Thai income tax, regardless of nationality or benefits they think they get from the tax.  Many Thais are also not happy with how their tax money is spent and it is very clear that much of it is wasted or outright stolen but nothing they can do about it. Most can't leave like you can.

[Dogmatix]

9 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

FWIW we have been through that posters finances in great detail, several times and there is no Thai tax liability but there are anxiety issues which are not helped by all the uncertainty. This is one of the problems trying to comment on different peoples tax situation, you never understand the person behind the post you're reading so everyone needs to be very careful.

 

I made a general comment on the situation as I see it which I believe is entirely appropriate in an open forum such as this one.  Of course I have no idea what the poster's detailed personal financial situation is because he didn't disclose it and I have no interest in knowing it or commenting on it in detail. But at any rate, no one really knows how the RD is going to handle foreign pensions, probably not even the RD.

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, Dogmatix said:

 

I made a general comment on the situation as I see it which I believe is entirely appropriate in an open forum such as this one.  Of course I have no idea what the poster's detailed personal financial situation is because he didn't disclose it and I have no interest in knowing it or commenting on it in detail. But at any rate, no one really knows how the RD is going to handle foreign pensions, probably not even the RD.

PM sent

[Yumthai]

30 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

It's a lot harder to tax a cash business than it is to track electronic bank transfers! That's why the unofficial economy or grey workforce here is so large at 48% of the total workforce.

Nowadays working girls all accept PromptPay.

[Dogmatix]

4 hours ago, freeworld said:

This is what CRS reports

Financial Account Information to be Reported

Under the CRS, financial institutions are required to report specific information about their account holders and their financial accounts. This information includes:

• Account Holder Information: Name, address, jurisdiction of residence, and tax identification number.

• Account Balance or Value: The total balance or value of the account at the end of the reporting period.

• Financial Income: Interest, dividends, and other income the account generates.

• Gross Proceeds from the Sale or Redemption of Financial Assets: Proceeds from the sale or redemption of assets held in the account.

 

 

This is correct.  One of the expat tax advisors who also sells investment services scared people in his webinar which is on YouTube by saying that the Thai RD already receives detailed quarterly reports in Excel format of credit and debit card payments and ATM withdrawals from foreign banks and credit card issuers on all Thai tax residents, regardless of whether the payments are in Thailand or elsewhere. This is a pure of invention by him for what reason it is hard to fathom.  I think it will be hard or impossible for the RD to isolate foreign ATM and card payments by Thai tax residents, at least initially.  Also I doubt they would even try at this point.  In future, perhaps it will become easier.

[lordgrinz]

9 hours ago, mokwit said:

Common Reporting Standard.

 

The Common Reporting Standard (CRS), developed in response to the G20 request and approved by the OECD Council on 15 July 2014, calls on jurisdictions to obtain information from their financial institutions and automatically exchange that information with other jurisdictions on an annual basis.

 

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=Common+Reporting+standard

 

The worry would be letting Thai's access any sensitive foreign information, that could allow scammers to steal our foreign assets. Not sure about you, but I wouldn't trust any Thai, especially a Thai government employee to have my sensitive financial information. It's one thing to do the mundane extension paperwork every year, but giving any type of sensitive and private financial information to a foreign government entity, and one with close ties to China?! I'd rather not!

[NorthernRyland]

4 hours ago, gravity101 said:

Cant vouch for anyone else but it was the same thinking as me for sure. It may be wrong to be calling it a loophole, more of a feature to repatriate funds for the wealthy?

Apparently we were able to claim our funds were savings from the previous year and we would have been able to avoid taxes legally. BUT.... they never questioned us, never even mentioned it.

 

The new changes may close the loophole but there would need to be another far more radical policy of collecting taxes from expats. So it's not really about the loophole it's about the threat (yes it's a threat) to start taxing expats which are applicable.

 

This has never been tried before and we all know they've done poor planning and have little idea how this will work out. That's why people are saying don't rush out and start asking accountants how to sign yourself up for their great new scheme. Just shut up and stay quiet like you always were and see if this blows past.

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, NorthernRyland said:

Apparently we were able to claim our funds were savings from the previous year and we would have been able to avoid taxes legally. BUT.... they never questioned us, never even mentioned it.

 

The new changes may close the loophole but there would need to be another far more radical policy of collecting taxes from expats. So it's not really about the loophole it's about the threat (yes it's a threat) to start taxing expats which are applicable.

 

This has never been tried before and we all know they've done poor planning and have little idea how this will work out. That's why people are saying don't rush out and start asking accountants how to sign yourself up for their great new scheme. Just shut up and stay quiet like you always were and see if this blows past.

You are assuming that taxing foreigners is something new that has never been done before. The fact is Ryan, we've no idea how many foreigners are already being taxed here and have been paying tax for years. Just because tax is a new issue for many AN members, doesn't mean it's a new issue for all foreigners here. If I was told that the number of foreign tax payers was large, I wouldn't be at all surprised.

[NorthernRyland]

6 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

You are assuming that taxing foreigners is something new that has never been done before. The fact is Ryan, we've no idea how many foreigners are already being taxed here and have been paying tax for years. Just because tax is a new issue for many AN members, doesn't mean it's a new issue for all foreigners here. If I was told that the number of foreign tax payers was large, I wouldn't be at all surprised.

I've never heard of anyone being taxed who isn't working here.  In theory you're correct though, we've all had tax liabilities since the beginning but then why didn't they even tell us? It would be easy at immigration for them to say, btw, you have a tax liability and need to talk with an accountant, get a TIN etc...

 

If they start making noise about this at immigration then I'll pay attention but until then I appear to be in the same position as always, just like the rest of us.

[anrcaccount]

51 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Doing nothing and staying quiet, wouldn't have helped those pensioners feel any better or address their concerns. Just think about it, guys who have been here for twenty plus years, doing OK on their pensions but not a lot of spare cash, suddenly think they are going to get hit for Thai tax that they can't afford. They have no living relatives back "home" and no where else to go, that was exactly what many of them were thinking. 

Agree to disagree here. 

 

I think by your (albeit well intentioned) information sharing, you've caused people more stress and anxiety than you've prevented.

 

You read of people on here, making decisions to stay or not stay in the country, based on what they've read in your guide. Nobody should be doing that-  until more information comes to light.

 

Additionally, you've encouraged people who may register for a TIN to report on the "success" of that registration.

 

You've speculated that Thai authorities will require "tax clearance" certificates and speculated it's likely tax status will be linked to immigration status in the future. 

 

You've created and fostered hundreds of pages of discussion, consisting of mostly speculation,  about a topic that yet has little clarity.

 

You then have defended anyone calling this "fear mongering".

 

With respect to your intentions, it's debatable whether your efforts have caused more harm than good. 

 

 

 

 

[Sigmund]

What next ? Start looking at other more foreigner friendly countries all over Asia or even India, why not.

[Neeranam]

13 hours ago, webfact said:

There are some categories of foreign tax residents who will not be liable at all this year, for example those who do not transfer ANY foreign income to Thailand in 2024 as well as holders of the 10 year Longterm Residence Visa who are exempt from declaring any foreign income in any case.

 

Why do long term visa holders get special treatment over Thais? 

Are you sure about this? 

[RocketDog]

12 hours ago, nowhereman said:

In the  first three month I've  managed to cut down my spending for 50% and I will continue to do so until I am sure I won't be paying double taxes. The results of spending less are visible on my body weight and good health 😉  Thank you Thailand 😉

 

Your beneficiaries will appreciate your decision.

[ChaiyaTH]

12 hours ago, mokwit said:

The danger is when it becomes fully automated. Right now the RD is not set up to deal with foreigners and are reluctant to do so.

Dream on, Thai economy would be done and over, that's how corrupt it is. Same all those smart camera's for helmets and red lights, gone in 9/10 places. This is the entire issue with basically anything and everything, including making visa's easy digitally / online.

Edited April 4 by ChaiyaTH

[spambot]

For UK pensioners currently who have not disclosed their stay in Thailand in order to retain indexation increases annually, but want to claim the dual taxation relief, presumably they will have then effectively disclosed their Thai residency and have then prevented any future pension increase (subject to the automatic UK / overseas tests).

[Mike Lister]

4 hours ago, anrcaccount said:

Agree to disagree here. 

 

I think by your (albeit well intentioned) information sharing, you've caused people more stress and anxiety than you've prevented.

 

You read of people on here, making decisions to stay or not stay in the country, based on what they've read in your guide. Nobody should be doing that-  until more information comes to light.

 

Additionally, you've encouraged people who may register for a TIN to report on the "success" of that registration.

 

You've speculated that Thai authorities will require "tax clearance" certificates and speculated it's likely tax status will be linked to immigration status in the future. 

 

You've created and fostered hundreds of pages of discussion, consisting of mostly speculation,  about a topic that yet has little clarity.

 

You then have defended anyone calling this "fear mongering".

 

With respect to your intentions, it's debatable whether your efforts have caused more harm than good. 

 

 

 

 

Those things are plain and simply nonsense and not true, I deeply resent that distortion of the facts! I don't believe for one moment that you've even read that guide!

 

1) "I think by your (albeit well intentioned) information sharing, you've caused people more stress and anxiety than you've prevented".

 

The conversations between the media and members in tax threads at AN started in September last year and increased in intensity. In January, I even tried to have one long thread closed because it was an incoherent ramble that confused everyone. By the time I started my work, three months ago, in January, one thread on Thai tax was already 6,000 posts and 215 pages long!  All my thread did was to take the existing conversations, extract the facts and present them back in the form of a Simple Tax Guide that the average person could understand.

 

2) "You read of people on here, making decisions to stay or not stay in the country, based on what they've read in your guide. Nobody should be doing that-  until more information comes to light".

 

The Simple Tax Guide makes it clear from the outset and throughout that many aspects of what will happen are unclear and that everyone must wait until the RD clarifies matters. Anyone who took action in spite of that, was very foolish and has only themselves to blame, my strongest suspicion however is that those people saying they will leave, were nothing more than expressions of frustration rather than fact. At least one person, an Australian poster, declared over thirty times that he and his wife would return to Australia because of these laws, he kept repeating that message endlessly whilst other members did similar. That was nothing more than a knee jerk reaction and confirmation that they didn't have enough information and and were afraid, which was a driver for us to create the simple guide and provide easy to understand information about tax.

 

3) "Additionally, you've encouraged people who may register for a TIN to report on the "success" of that registration".

 

Yes, we've always asked people to feedback their experiences to everyone else, what is wrong with that?

 

4) "You've speculated that Thai authorities will require "tax clearance" certificates and speculated it's likely tax status will be linked to immigration status in the future". 

 

No I have not! What I have done is mentioned in the guide that tax clearance certificates exist and are used in the US, I even said in the Guide they are not in use today when actually they are for several visa classes. I have also said that there is no link between the Revenue and Immigration and there are no plans to extend their use, that we know of. The tax guide says:

 

69) It cannot be entirely ruled out that at some point, a link may be established between tax filings and visa extensions. A law already exists that requires foreigners to apply for Tax Clearance Certificates before being allowed to depart the country but it is not being enforced currently. These things are possible because similar things have been adopted in several countries in the past, including the US.

 

5) "You've created and fostered hundreds of pages of discussion, consisting of mostly speculation,  about a topic that yet has little clarity".

 

No I have not done any such thing! See answer (1) above, all those discussions have taken place in the media and been reported by AN and elsewhere in the media. Plus embassies have held briefing sessions for their citizens and released the video's onto YouTube which have found their way into AN threads on tax. Additionally, every would be tax accountant and lawyer in Thailand has produced video's on this law in an attempt to get new business. All I've done is extract the facts from some of those reports and put them in the tax guide.

 

(6) You then have defended anyone calling this "fear mongering".

 

I don't know what you're trying to say here, it's ambiguous and unclear to me. Readers need to put on their big boy pants! The Thai tax laws changed, that caused lots of people to panic, encouraged by endless media reports, all speculating about this and that. That uncovered the fact that hardly anyone new jack sh*t about tax law and what the impact might be or what to do. All the Simple Guide has done is to provide them with that information and a basic education about tax.

 

I see your post as an attack on me and the work we have done to help explain and make people understand. You cannot say everything that you have and misrepresent the truth the way you did so massively and then try to ameliorate your comments by saying my intentions were good, that's pure hypocrisy!

 

Until you post a correction and present a more fair and balanced view of the facts, and you apologise for the misrepresentation you have created, all our work on tax and helping members stops here and not one more tax related question gets answered. We will find out very shortly in this thread whether the Simple Tax Guide has created the panic you mention or not. If it has, we need to stop everything this instant. If it has not, a retraction is required.

 

[Mike Teavee]

5 hours ago, Neeranam said:

Why do long term visa holders get special treatment over Thais? 

Are you sure about this? 

The fact that some LTR Holders do not pay Tax on the Overseas Income has been published by many sources, but Sheerings seems to be the most quoted when it comes to Thailand's Tax rules so here's their take...

 

https://sherrings.com/long-term-resident-visa-tax-concessions-thailand.html

 

 

 

Edited April 4 by Mike Teavee

[thesetat]

17 hours ago, Jonathan Swift said:

In the US strict privacy laws will prevent any entity from accessing bank or financial information without the accountholder’s express permission. 

But that does not restrict what money you have sent to thailand banks from the US. Which is what they are trying to tax. 

[thesetat]

17 hours ago, Jonathan Swift said:

In the US strict privacy laws will prevent any entity from accessing bank or financial information without the accountholder’s express permission. 

But that does not restrict what money you have sent to thailand banks from the US. Which is what they are trying to tax. 

[cdnvic]

One post removed for violating community standards. It is actually possible to tell someone that they're wrong without the need to insult them.

[Darksidedude]

There are no answers because they don't have a clue what they are doing, absolute stupidity bringing this in how can they have the right to tax someone on their foreign income or savings its absolutely absurd.

[Sheist]

18 hours ago, mrmicbkktxl said:

 

 

So if we have a Thai savings account and we do NOT want an automatic 15% tax deduction taken on all inflows of cash, what exactly is this advice that WE have to give our bank?  Tell them to ALLOW or to NOT ALLOW the TRD to have access to our account data?  It sounds like we need to ALLOW (is this correct?) so they will NOT take out 15% each time, but this video only causes me stress and confusion.  If they take out 15%, then we HAVE to get a TIN and file to get it back!  (assume this account is 100% unaccessable and is not required to file)  The point is to avoid filing when the money is non-assessable (and thus non-taxable) and not be FORCED to file just to get our 15% withholding back!  This lawyer says "may" and "will see what happens" WAY too much in this discussion.

[jayboy]

10 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

You are assuming that taxing foreigners is something new that has never been done before. The fact is Ryan, we've no idea how many foreigners are already being taxed here and have been paying tax for years. Just because tax is a new issue for many AN members, doesn't mean it's a new issue for all foreigners here. If I was told that the number of foreign tax payers was large, I wouldn't be at all surprised.

 

All employed foreigners in Thailand pay tax and always have done so and that is not up for debate.I speak as someone formerly in that category.The more pertinent question for this forum is how many retired expats without Thai generated income and resident more than 180 days have filed returns and paid tax - that is up to now.The answer is almost none though a tiny minority may have filed returns for reasons best known to themselves, and sometimes quite unnecessarily.The Thai Revenue Department in practice had no issues with that.The situation has changed now and though the practical aspects are still not fully clear we have a reasonable understanding of how matters will play out.

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, jayboy said:

 

All employed foreigners in Thailand pay tax and always have done so and that is not up for debate.I speak as someone formerly in that category.The more pertinent question for this forum is how many retired expats without Thai generated income and resident more than 180 days have filed returns and paid tax - that is up to now.The answer is almost none though a tiny minority may have filed returns for reasons best known to themselves, and sometimes quite unnecessarily.The Thai Revenue Department in practice had no issues with that.The situation has changed now and though the practical aspects are still not fully clear we have a reasonable understanding of how matters will play out.

You have no knowledge regarding how many retired foreigners have or have not paid tax on overseas income or filed returns each year, your statement in bold above is only a guess. Anecdotal data from posts on this forum over many years however, have reported many many times that pensioners often use the monthly income method and have their pensions deposited directly into Thai banks, I am one such person and have done so for years. Those are pensioners who in many cases, under previous and existing rules, probably had assessible income and probably ought to have filed tax return under Thai Revenue tax law.

[pattaya1234was]

20 hours ago, nickmondo said:

get the Green Wise card for the ATM here.  Its very good

I am sure it If , for exais good but if you live in Thailand you cannot get one. if, for example, you have a home in the Uk then you can obtain a card there.

[jayboy]

14 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

You have no knowledge regarding how many retired foreigners have or have not paid tax on overseas income or filed returns each year, your statement in bold above is only a guess

 

It is an informed opinion based on several decades of residence (both employed and retired) and knowledge of the Thailand tax system.I am not criticizing those who unnecessarily filed returns such as yourself.For doubters, talk to any expatriate advisers in Thailand's leading accountancy firms, but frankly the subject's not up for debate.

 

20 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Anecdotal data from posts on this forum over many years however, have reported many many times that pensioners often use the monthly income method and have their pensions deposited directly into Thai banks, I am one such person and have done so for years. Those are pensioners who in many cases, under previous and existing rules, probably had assessible income and probably ought to have filed tax returnbut frankly the subject is not really up for debate. under Thai Revenue tax law.

 

Yes, but not really relevant to the subject  of whether retired expatriates with no Thai income have been filing returns.

[Mike Lister]

1 minute ago, jayboy said:

 

It is an informed opinion based on several decades of residence (both employed and retired) and knowledge of the Thailand tax system.I am not criticizing those who unnecessarily filed returns such as yourself.For doubters, talk to any expatriate advisers in Thailand's leading accountancy firms, but frankly the subject's not up for debate.

 

 

Yes, but not really relevant to the subject  of whether retired expatriates with no Thai income have been filing returns.

"I am not criticizing those who unnecessarily filed returns such as yourself".

 

I have assessible income in Thailand that must be reported under Thai tax law and I chose to do so. What is unnecessary about that!

 

Any informal statistics you may have developed over however many years, from whatever casual sources, regarding how many expat foreigners do or do not pay tax on overseas income in Thailand is purely anecdotal, that is definitely not up for debate.

 

[seajae]

19 hours ago, gravity101 said:

I don't know what io office you use. But here in Phuket if I try and do anything at immigration after staying in a hotel I get blasted and told to submit a tm30 first to bring my address back to Phuket. Happened multiple times.

strange as I do it often and it is never questioned by immigration, they just require my wife to ensure mine is updated yearly at my extension, they do not want/require one everytime we go away for a few days, werent the laws changed to not require constant re filing tm30's if only traveling inside Thailand and not changing your regular residence, while we had to do it when it was made into law we havent had to since the law for tm30's for every stay away from your residence was removed

[Presnock]

8 minutes ago, jayboy said:

 

It is an informed opinion based on several decades of residence (both employed and retired) and knowledge of the Thailand tax system.I am not criticizing those who unnecessarily filed returns such as yourself.For doubters, talk to any expatriate advisers in Thailand's leading accountancy firms, but frankly the subject's not up for debate.

 

 

Yes, but not really relevant to the subject  of whether retired expatriates with no Thai income have been filing returns.

Once the embassy stopped issuing income verification letters, I began monthly payments and my income was strictly from a US government pension so I have never FAILED to pay taxes where none are due.  I don't have a Thai TIN and don't plan to get one at least until they change the tax law to require that all ex-pats must get one.  The law now says we only need to get on within 60 days of remitting assessable income - I don't have any.