Swiss Expat Critically Injured in Scooter-Car Crash in Pattaya

[scubascuba3]

19 minutes ago, Felton Jarvis said:

One MORE reason that I will never drive in Thailand. Public transport will have to do.

You will miss out on a lot if you don't drive or ride a motorbike here. Some noobs just use the baht bus, bit sad really

[kwilco]

2 hours ago, Ralf001 said:

 

 

The fact I have experienced this exact same incident several times at this same intersection and on each occasion the police declared me not at fault..

 

Yeah I will side with their decision rather than your keyboard thumping.

I'm not questioning tany decision (mind you  - RTP??) - I'm pointing out the paucity of understanding people have when it comes to analysing acidents in general - especially watching videos.

"experienced this exact same incident several times at this same intersection" - ? - Brings to mind a quote of Einstein's "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results"

[Klonko]

Insisting on the official traffic rules is a recipe for a disaster especially in Thailand. Both drivers were driving recklessly. I have driven both roads by car and motorcycle and never would drive across this intersection from either side without looking for other vehicles  and being prepared and able to give way even if it's my right of way. Anticipating the Thai style behaviour of other drivers, I feel as comfortable as driving in Europe.

[kwilco]

3 minutes ago, Klonko said:

Insisting on the official traffic rules is a recipe for a disaster especially in Thailand. Both drivers were driving recklessly. I have driven both roads by car and motorcycle and never would drive across this intersection from either side without looking for other vehicles  and being prepared and able to give way even if it's my right of way. Anticipating the Thai style behaviour of other drivers, I feel as comfortable as driving in Europe.

Yes - many foreign drivers are not good enough to adapt to a driving environment that is quite different from their home country. Some even think that Thai people should drive like they do in their home country.

Basically if you find yourself shouting at other drivers, it is probably you who are not fitting in.

 

Pelpe's perceptions of driving in any country are universally uninformed and their ability to understand what is really going on is minimal

 

It is also worth bearing in mind that in a 4-wheeled vehicle in Thailand you are LESS likely to die than in a 4-wheeled car in the USA.

[transam]

1 minute ago, kwilco said:

Yes - many foreign drivers are not good enough to adapt to a driving environment that is quite different from their home country. Some even think that Thai people should drive like they do in their home country.

Basically if you find yourself shouting at other drivers, it is probably you who are not fitting in.

 

Pelpe's perceptions of driving in any country are universally uninformed and their ability to understand what is really going on is minimal

 

It is also worth bearing in mind that in a 4-wheeled vehicle in Thailand you are LESS likely to die than in a 4-wheeled car in the USA.

Nothing to do with "fitting in", LOS has the infrastructure to teach basic road safety, but those who are supposed to teach road safety, haven't got a clue themselves.

 

We have all witnessed it.

Yet folk in LOS can operate a smartphone to get it to work, though it takes time, but not a bike or car/truck..........🤭 

 

In your last sentence, you should provide evidence for that claim, maybe true, maybe not.....😉

[kwilco]

On 4/22/2024 at 5:04 PM, richard_smith237 said:

And then there is also this.... 

 

 

 

we can't see - if the traffic lights are working.

we can be pretty sure the motorcyclist didn't look left.

the driver of the SUV did not seem to have adjusted speed for the junction.

 

Anyone having driven this junction and all the other junctions along these roads will be aware that they whole layout is totally unsatisfactory especially at rush hours.

 

It seems that Thai has not one single traffic engineer anywhere in the country

Edited April 27 by kwilco

[balo]

9 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

The Swiss man didn't even have a helmet on and didn't look properly when crossing the junction, it will be a 50/50 settlement at best

 

 

It's a miracle he even survived!  Any news on his recovery?  Maybe he will never walk again. 

[SAFETY FIRST]

8 hours ago, balo said:

Maybe he will never walk again. 

He was riding a disability scooter, maybe he couldn't walk.

Maybe the reason he was riding like a suicidal madman. 

Maybe he had mental health issues. 

 

 

I hope the woman who was driving the SUV is ok, maybe she will never drive again from this traumatic experience. 

 

AN forums, so many comments with maybe's, perhaps and possibly etc. 

 

 

Edited April 28 by SAFETY FIRST

[Henryford]

On 4/24/2024 at 5:28 PM, transam said:

The white SUV was clearly at fault. The video shows it was. If it were a woman with a pram crossing the road, the same outcome. SUV not slowing down for the junction, no caution for the junction, the driver should have known better....🤔

 

I would disagree. I would consider the dual carriageway to be the "main road" and thus have right of way. Anyone entering from the minor road over the railway line should give way.  In any event i always proceed with great caution at that intersection and would never cross unless the way was clear.

[Rimmer]

2 hours ago, Henryford said:

 

I would disagree. I would consider the dual carriageway to be the "main road" and thus have right of way. Anyone entering from the minor road over the railway line should give way.  In any event i always proceed with great caution at that intersection and would never cross unless the way was clear.

 

Had not grey the car stopped in the fast lane to let the scooter go through? The White car must have seen that but still overtook it on the inside at high speed, It does not look like the grey car was slowing to turn as the front wheels are straight.

[Klonko]

2 hours ago, Henryford said:

 

I would disagree. I would consider the dual carriageway to be the "main road" and thus have right of way. Anyone entering from the minor road over the railway line should give way.  In any event i always proceed with great caution at that intersection and would never cross unless the way was clear.

Crossing the intersections on this dual carriageway not being able to stop under the assumption cross traffic has to give way is, as said, recipe for disaster. You have a "stop" line on the dual carriageway way, a minor cross road,  left (car) before right (tricycle) and the tricycle on the intersection before the car. There is no common understanding of the applicable traffic rule among the drivers using sich crossings The discussion of the right of way is interesting to allocate responsibility after an accident. Else, common sense rules, and you better not drive in Thailand if you do not get accustomed to.

[SAFETY FIRST]

I've been driving the Thai roads for over 20 years

 

When driving I don't pay too much attention to the white lines, I give way to all traffic, everyone has right of way. It takes me a little longer to get from A to B and spend a little more on fuel and brake pads.

 

I reckon most are missing the point, seriously, on this road you are just not expecting ANYTHING, car, truck, bus or scooter to come flying out of the roads east/west.

 

Once I saw the video I think page 2 or 3, I made a comment, it's one of the strangest things I've ever seen on Thailand's roads, probably won't see something as stupid again. 

 

Yes, the SUV maybe in the wrong but to be fair, you are just not expecting this situation, that little scooter, barely visible, at speed flying through that very, very dangerous intersection is not normal driving behaviour and a rare sight. 

 

I reckon most of us here, if we were driving the SUV at the time, would have driven into the Swiss guy, an unavoidable accident.

 

Makes me wonder if the Swiss guy sat back waiting for a come driving at speed, I'm thinking he was looking for an accident. 

 

 

Edited April 28 by SAFETY FIRST

[Startmeup]

On 4/22/2024 at 12:03 PM, Goat said:

No helmet.

No sympathy.

Most likely his injuries would have been less "critical" if he had followed basic safety guidelines.

 

The helmets here break like an egg.

There is no testing here like in Australia, US and elsewhere.

Anybody who has any proper biking experience would be aware of this. Most of these folks would import helmets from abroad.
 

I could go and open a helmet manufacturing shop tomorrow if I wanted.
All new lightweight paper mache helmets, Made in Thailand. Super lightweight Make you go 20% faster. 

Id probably get some incentives by the government too for providing jobs. 

Edited April 28 by Startmeup

[Startmeup]

On 4/22/2024 at 12:40 PM, SAFETY FIRST said:

I see these foreigners everywhere. 

 

These elderly guys on those electric scooters, bloody dangerous. 

 

Alot of them seem to hate life. Driving around with no respect for other road users. Foot to the floor, look at me Im an invalid make way. I dont think its a case of that they think they own the road I think its that they are so angry with life and their situation in the world that they dont care if they get hit. Until they do.

[The Fugitive]

2 minutes ago, Startmeup said:

His body got crushed not his head.

The helmets here are close to useless. They are for show. They break like an egg.

There is no testing here like in Australia, US and elsewhere.

Anybody who has any proper biking would be aware of this. Most of these folks would import helmets from abroad.
 

I could go and open a helmet manufacturing shop tomorrow if I wanted.
All new lightweight paper mache helmets, Made in Thailand. Super lightweight Make you go 20% faster. 

Id probably get some incentives by the government too for providing jobs. 

Local shop sells crash helmets for 300 baht. You can guess how good they are.

[scubascuba3]

31 minutes ago, Startmeup said:

 

The helmets here break like an egg.

There is no testing here like in Australia, US and elsewhere.

Anybody who has any proper biking experience would be aware of this. Most of these folks would import helmets from abroad.
 

I could go and open a helmet manufacturing shop tomorrow if I wanted.
All new lightweight paper mache helmets, Made in Thailand. Super lightweight Make you go 20% faster. 

Id probably get some incentives by the government too for providing jobs. 

No one is recommending a rubbish helmet, obviously he should have been wearing a good one. Shark do good helmets circ 5k

[richard_smith237]

14 hours ago, SAFETY FIRST said:

 

I hope the woman who was driving the SUV is ok, maybe she will never drive again from this traumatic experience. 

 

AN forums, so many comments with maybe's, perhaps and possibly etc. 

 

 

Add another...  Hope.... 

 

I hope she doesn't drive again - she's a clear danger to anyone who may be in front of her...  

[richard_smith237]

9 hours ago, SAFETY FIRST said:

I've been driving the Thai roads for over 20 years

 

When driving I don't pay too much attention to the white lines, I give way to all traffic, everyone has right of way. It takes me a little longer to get from A to B and spend a little more on fuel and brake pads.

 

Valid point - lines can't 'hit you' the other vehicles can.......    

 

9 hours ago, SAFETY FIRST said:

 

I reckon most are missing the point, seriously, on this road you are just not expecting ANYTHING, car, truck, bus or scooter to come flying out of the roads east/west.

 

Ralf should be by now...  he's been involved in numerous accidents at this junction...  as per his own admission of course. 

 

 

9 hours ago, SAFETY FIRST said:

Once I saw the video I think page 2 or 3, I made a comment, it's one of the strangest things I've ever seen on Thailand's roads, probably won't see something as stupid again. 

 

Oh you will...  very soon when Ralf001 responds !!!...    Seriously though, with the roads here driven the way they are, you will, within a few days.

 

 

9 hours ago, SAFETY FIRST said:

Yes, the SUV maybe in the wrong but to be fair, you are just not expecting this situation, that little scooter, barely visible, at speed flying through that very, very dangerous intersection is not normal driving behaviour and a rare sight. 

 

I reckon most of us here, if we were driving the SUV at the time, would have driven into the Swiss guy, an unavoidable accident.

 

Possible... If 'mimicking the other traffic behavior' rather than thinking and reading the road...    

I 'mimic' the other traffic here a lot... in busy traffic nudging out into junctions etc... but if a motorcycle rides straight into me, I know legally its my fault as I'm the one pulling out in the main road...    from another perspective though, in that hypothetical sitation the motorcyclist is in the wrong because he wasn't riding defensively... 

... And... (I think)... this is what you are stating in this thread...  i.e. that you have to drive a certain way to fit in with the flow of traffic and match the manner of traffic to avoid confusion and risk an accident.....   

...I get that - but there is also the law and regulation - this is what makes Driving in Thailand dangerous, there is a certain 'enabling' of disregard for the the law here, road law in this case.... Lazy Police don't assist and thus, not following the law, just doing what everyone else does and then it becomes the norm...    it even becomes the norm to the police who then base their decisions not on law or legal president but on 'what they would have done in the same situation'... i.e. winging it because they were not trained any better. 

 

 

9 hours ago, SAFETY FIRST said:

Makes me wonder if the Swiss guy sat back waiting for a come driving at speed, I'm thinking he was looking for an accident. 

 

Perhaps not looking... but for sure it looks like he's given up on giving an flook......    he appears to ride like he doesn't care if he's wiped out or not...   Perhaps his disability places him in a state of mind that he is ready to accept death and welcome it, while as the same not actively 'coveting' it (i.e. not suicidal).

 

 

 

 

[kwilco]

14 hours ago, Rimmer said:

 

Had not grey the car stopped in the fast lane to let the scooter go through? The White car must have seen that but still overtook it on the inside at high speed, It does not look like the grey car was slowing to turn as the front wheels are straight.

Unfortunately the video doesn't show the approach of the SUV to the junction, so there is very little you can reliably conclude from it.

 

People are very bad at viewing videos dispassionately.

[transam]

20 hours ago, Rimmer said:

 

Had not grey the car stopped in the fast lane to let the scooter go through? The White car must have seen that but still overtook it on the inside at high speed, It does not look like the grey car was slowing to turn as the front wheels are straight.

Yep, the gray car was paying attention for the crossroad, who could also see the trike coming through. The SUV did not slow down for the crossroad and probably did not see the trike obscured by the gray car. 100% SUV fault...

[transam]

6 hours ago, kwilco said:

Unfortunately the video doesn't show the approach of the SUV to the junction, so there is very little you can reliably conclude from it.

 

People are very bad at viewing videos dispassionately.

😂........I think it is you that cannot read videos...............😂

[In Full Agreement]

On 4/27/2024 at 4:45 PM, kwilco said:

It is also worth bearing in mind that in a 4-wheeled vehicle in Thailand you are LESS likely to die than in a 4-wheeled car in the USA.

 

 

What does the USA have to do with this thread?

[Rimmer]

A troll post has been removed

 

 

[BusNo8]

On 4/22/2024 at 11:51 AM, dddave said:

That intersection is impossible.  There is no clear "right of way"

 

In states, the right of way is yielded to drivers on the right. In this case, that would be the scooter. Thailand drives on the left and no idea whether this should matter in what I have offered.

 

No stop signs... A situation crying out ... do not drive in Thailand. Foreigners always have to live wherever the F they desire, buy a cheap scooter to make the bridge to civilization.

 

You gon' learn today!

[BusNo8]

9 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

Perhaps not looking... but for sure it looks like he's given up on giving an flook......    he appears to ride like he doesn't care if he's wiped out or not...   Perhaps his disability places him in a state of mind that he is ready to accept death and welcome it, while as the same not actively 'coveting' it (i.e. not suicidal).

 

Yeah, some old codger doesn't belong on the road in the first place. Totally evident in fact he's on a trike, looks as old as Jesus. Posture horrible but that also can be impact. No business on the road in his condition, on that stupid thing.

[SAFETY FIRST]

10 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

Perhaps his disability places him in a state of mind that he is ready to accept death and welcome it, while as the same not actively 'coveting' it (i.e. not suicidal

Let's hope he's not suicidal because when he gets well we may be seeing a similar stunt and another AN article to comment on. 

 

Edited April 29 by SAFETY FIRST

[kwilco]

4 hours ago, In Full Agreement said:

 

 

What does the USA have to do with this thread?

It’s down to perception.

I said….

“People's perceptions of driving in any country are universally uninformed and their ability to understand what is really going on is minimal

 

It is also worth bearing in mind that in a 4-wheeled vehicle in Thailand you are LESS likely to die than in a 4-wheeled car in the USA”.

 

There is a lack of understanding of what is happening – the general attitude is that “driving in Thailand is mad and all Thai drivers are bad” – but the statistics don’t back this up – as 4-wheeled transport is less deadly than in the USA where a lot of people wrongly consider the driving to be "better".

Edited April 29 by kwilco

[richard_smith237]

5 hours ago, transam said:

11 hours ago, kwilco said:

Unfortunately the video doesn't show the approach of the SUV to the junction, so there is very little you can reliably conclude from it.

 

People are very bad at viewing videos dispassionately.

😂........I think it is you that cannot read videos...............😂

 

I think its quite clear that the approach of the SUV was at speed....  it enter the camera frame 'at speed'... entered the junction 'at speed' and took out the swiss-guy 'at speed'....    

 

This is  apparently ok to do for some forum members, because regardless of legal right of way, its the way 'most people' approach and travel through this junction... so killing someone who has right of way doesn't matter as its their own fault (apparently).

 

[richard_smith237]

4 hours ago, SAFETY FIRST said:

Let's hope he's not suicidal because when he gets well we may be seeing a similar stunt and another AN article to comment on. 

 

Sooner than that I think...  not specifically the swiss-guy, but another innocent motorist (maybe a motorcyclist) because the junctions along that road are clearly a terrible design and with 'most people' driving in a manner many would consider dangerous, and others would consider 'with complete disregard for the safety of anyone else'....    another accident at this same location and similar junctions along that stretch are surely a daily occurance.  

 

 

[richard_smith237]

4 hours ago, BusNo8 said:

In states, the right of way is yielded to drivers on the right. In this case, that would be the scooter. Thailand drives on the left and no idea whether this should matter in what I have offered.

 

Right of way at unmarked junctions of equal status is to the right - however, that right of way is yielded when someone is already 'in' the junction...  the Trike was in the junction before the SUV reached it (i.e. before the SUV enters the camera frame the trike is in the junction).

Thus any point discussing giving-way to the left is moot. 

 

At his junction although the north-south road running parallel to the railway tracks, along which the white SUV was travelling is the wider, raster road, it is the 'lower status' of the two roads. 

 

The 'east-West' road along which the Swiss-Man on the Mobility trike was travelling is the primary road, this is most likely due to the added complication of the railway crossing and prevention of east-west traffic backing up across the tracks / crossing due to cars having to give way to the North-South road.... 

 

4 hours ago, BusNo8 said:

No stop signs... A situation crying out ... do not drive in Thailand. Foreigners always have to live wherever the F they desire, buy a cheap scooter to make the bridge to civilization.

 

No stop 'signs'...   But thats a very 'American' thing...   The line on the road also denotes 'stop' (fixed / unbroken white line)... 

 

While there often is an associated, there doesn't have to be and not having a sign does not make the road markings void. 

 

There is also a possibility that the road markings are remnant of a previous road 'set up'.. but they don't look so old...  So I'd argue that give way lines (stop lines) were added to the junction to denote right of way and they just didn't bother getting round to the signs.

Thats not a surprise in Thailand where the priority at many junctions remain 'ambiguous' or in contradiction to common sense because officials just don't care until something happens....   they can't be bothered to put up signs here because 'the boss' didn't tell them to. 

 

4 hours ago, BusNo8 said:

You gon' learn today!