Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part II

[topt]

4 hours ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

 Until TRD provides their long promised explanations and detailed advice,

Did they really actually say they were going to do that because I don't remember them saying that - was it in one of the organised country specific videos?

[chiang mai]

6 minutes ago, topt said:

Did they really actually say they were going to do that because I don't remember them saying that - was it in one of the organised country specific videos?

I don't believe for one second the TRD has promised any such thing.

[topt]

1 minute ago, chiang mai said:

I don't believe for one second the TRD has promised any such thing.

Lets see what T&G comes back with.....we may learn something...........

[Lorry]

8 hours ago, Yumthai said:

Thai language has no straight meaning

Some things people post here beggar belief.

 

I keep posting the Thai words they use in Por 161/2567

้นำเงิน...ข้ามาในประเทศไทย

"bring the money into Thailand"

Very simple,  very clear, and a lot more straight than the weird "remit" that I  see native speakers arguing about. 

 

 

[Yumthai]

57 minutes ago, Lorry said:

"bring the money into Thailand"

Shall we take the literal definition of "bringing something"... and then exclude all payments and gifts?

There are way more interpretations of "bring" than you can think of.

[Captain Flack]

A reported off topic post has been removed

[itsari]

I asked for a so called tax expert on Thailand tax to call me and he had no knowledge on Norwegian double taxation agreement with Thailand .

He told me to make contact with a Norwegian accountant.

Yet he told me he can make a tax assessment for me on the 1st of January 2015 for 12000 baht.

Beware 

[chiang mai]

2 minutes ago, itsari said:

I asked for a so called tax expert on Thailand tax to call me and he had no knowledge on Norwegian double taxation agreement with Thailand .

He told me to make contact with a Norwegian accountant.

Yet he told me he can make a tax assessment for me on the 1st of January 2015 for 12000 baht.

Beware 

That comes as no surprise. My best advice is that nobody should think about retaining these tax experts to file their tax return until at least mid February, By that time, all the tax news that's available will be out and there will be some first hand reports by that time.

[Lorry]

1 hour ago, Yumthai said:

Shall we take the literal definition of "bringing something"... and then exclude all payments and gifts?

There are way more interpretations of "bring" than you can think of.

้นำเข้า is often translated as "import" if that helps you more.

Money is not in Thailand > action of ้นำเข้า > money is now in Thailand

 

Thai is a very concise language,  it can be very curt and clear,  no need for  verbose gobbledygook that people interpret any way they want 

[stat]

Talking about semantics is only one aspect, the main aspect is what Trd will decide what remittance they will tax and which not. It COULD very well be that they will only care for bank transfer, no one knows before they either make an announcement or before we get feedback from people who had their tax declarations procesed and maybe not even then.

[chiang mai]

8 hours ago, Lorry said:

้นำเข้า is often translated as "import" if that helps you more.

Money is not in Thailand > action of ้นำเข้า > money is now in Thailand

 

Thai is a very concise language,  it can be very curt and clear,  no need for  verbose gobbledygook that people interpret any way they want 

A large part of the problem is that Thai contains only 28,864 words whereas English contains  at least 170,000. 

 

 

[Lorry]

9 hours ago, stat said:

Talking about semantics is only one aspect, the main aspect is what Trd will decide what remittance they will tax and which not. It COULD very well be that they will only care for bank transfer, no one knows before they either make an announcement or before we get feedback from people who had their tax declarations procesed and maybe not even then.

Agreed.

I guess they will go after bank remittances first,  it's the easiest. And it's the only practical way to bring big sums into the country,  especially to buy a condo.

ATMs, cash, this is all chump change in comparison. 

 

[Lorry]

5 hours ago, chiang mai said:

A large part of the problem is that Thai contains only 28,864 words whereas English contains  at least 170,000. 

 

 

 Thai has only 2,864 words:

(Disclaimer: sarcasm)

 

Some people count 5 Thai syllables with 5 tones as 1 word - a lack of fundamental understanding of tonal languages.

Some count "eat, ate, eaten" as different words.  This raises the word count of languages with rich flexion systems (Russian) and makes the word count of some agglutinating languages (Turkish) infinite.

Some count an English word consisting of 2 morphemes ("remit") as a new word but would not do this in Thai ("นำเข้า").

 

We can always reopen the old thread,  here is the tax thread. 

 

BTW the new interpretation of the law that Por 161/2567 gives,  is based on an ambiguity in the Thai language - discussed early in the very first tax thread.

 

 

[stat]

On 9/1/2024 at 12:35 PM, topt said:

Did they really actually say they were going to do that because I don't remember them saying that - was it in one of the organised country specific videos?

I remember they once said they would clarify and then they did some weeks ago with a 1 pager and some pictures right from a childrens book 🙂 I not expect them to deliver much more then that... Of course no mentioning of handling of comingled accouts, accounting methode like FIFO etc. In my home country there would be hundred of pages of instructions but TiT.

Edited September 3 by stat

[sometimewoodworker]

14 hours ago, stat said:

On 9/1/2024 at 5:35 PM, topt said:

Did they really actually say they were going to do that because I don't remember them saying that - was it in one of the organised country specific videos?

I remember they once said they would clarify

I don’t recall anything from the TRD itself. I would be very interested to know/see that, I don’t say it didn’t happen, just that if it did I don’t see it.

 

There have been others making those kinds of statements but nothing I have seen from an official TRD source.

Edited September 4 by sometimewoodworker

[stat]

3 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

I don’t recall anything from the TRD itself. I would be very interested to know/see that, I don’t say it didn’t happen, just that if it did I don’t see it.

 

There have been others making those kinds of statements but nothing I have seen from an official TRD source.

For example here an interview with TRD (to my understanding it was directly with TRD)

 

https://www.bangkokpost.com/business/general/2818689/navigating-new-foreign-income-rules

 

Then there was also the clarification that income generated before 2024 was not liable for taxes, these small kind of clarifications. Nothing of the kind like 50 pages with Q&A and rules how to implement the new tax interpretation.

Edited September 4 by stat

[andre47]

2 hours ago, stat said:

For example here an interview with TRD (to my understanding it was directly with TRD)

 

https://www.bangkokpost.com/business/general/2818689/navigating-new-foreign-income-rules

 

Then there was also the clarification that income generated before 2024 was not liable for taxes, these small kind of clarifications. Nothing of the kind like 50 pages with Q&A and rules how to implement the new tax interpretation.

This is just a "explainer" from a Bangkok Post SENIOR ECONOMICS REPORTER...therefore no binding information.
 

The legal situation is clear:
1. The old rules apply for the period before January 1, 2024 and the new rules apply after that.

It is not written anywhere that all income before January 1, 2024 is tax-free.

[chiang mai]

13 minutes ago, andre47 said:

This is just a "explainer" from a Bangkok Post SENIOR ECONOMICS REPORTER...therefore no binding information.
 

The legal situation is clear:
1. The old rules apply for the period before January 1, 2024 and the new rules apply after that.

It is not written anywhere that all income before January 1, 2024 is tax-free.

Yes it is, Por 162 says it is so:

 

https://sherrings.com/foreign-source-income-personal-tax-thailand.html

[jaideedave]

On 8/30/2024 at 1:14 PM, Lorry said:

More mistakes follow when he talks about all kind of different pension systems in different countries,  at least some of which he doesn't understand. 

He misquoted the Canadian pension details for one.

[sometimewoodworker]

2 hours ago, stat said:

For example here an interview with TRD (to my understanding it was directly with TRD)

So only a report of an interview not an actual TRD clarification. Now while the report may accurately reflect the TRD hopes it is nothing to do with the  supposed “TRD provides their long promised explanations and detailed advice” that is claimed to exist.

 

2 hours ago, stat said:

Then there was also the clarification that income generated before 2024 was not liable for taxes,

That is in a TRD publication Por 162  and was published in late 2023 as a clarification of Por 161.

 

There has been no reliable report FROM the TRD itself or additional information FROM the TRD itself that suggests that they are going to do any more than in virtually all previous years which is to publish the 2023 tax forms in November/December, probably with guidance documents that virtually mirror previous years.

 

Sure there are many people claiming, or hoping for much more but as the Scottish proverb goes If wishes were horses, beggars would ride

you may want the TRD to do your job for you but there will be flocks of self propelled flying porcini’s before that happens IMNSHO.

 

as a clarification, it is your job to interpret the information provided by the TRD, that includes your country specific DTA/DTC, decide if you have sufficient remitted assessable funds to need to fill in a tax form and and pay the required tax. 
Then at some future point that can be up to 2034/5 they may require you to substantiate your tax form or lack of a tax form

Edited September 4 by sometimewoodworker

[stat]

22 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

So only a report of an interview not an actual TRD clarification. Now while the report may accurately reflect the TRD hopes it is nothing to do with the  supposed “TRD provides their long promised explanations and detailed advice” that is claimed to exist.

 

That is in a TRD publication Por 162  and was published in late 2023 as a clarification of Por 161.

 

There has been no reliable report FROM the TRD itself or additional information FROM the TRD itself that suggests that they are going to do any more than in virtually all previous years which is to publish the 2023 tax forms in November/December, probably with guidance documents that virtually mirror previous years.

 

Sure there are many people claiming, or hoping for much more but as the Scottish proverb goes If wishes were horses, beggars would ride

you may want the TRD to do your job for you but there will be flocks of self propelled flying porcini’s before that happens IMNSHO.

 

as a clarification, it is your job to interpret the information provided by the TRD, that includes your country specific DTA/DTC, decide if you have sufficient remitted assessable funds to need to fill in a tax form and and pay the required tax. 
Then at some future point that can be up to 2034/5 they may require you to substantiate your tax form or lack of a tax form

I agree there is no major clarification in the western sense of understanding but that is all we have and quite probably all we will get in the near future. However number 162 helped a lot I think.

[Danderman123]

On 8/30/2024 at 2:38 AM, chiang mai said:

Yet when I wrote earlier that the Revenue would notify Immigration and a person would be prevented from leaving the country, I was admonished and accused of scaremongering! @DrJack54

 

 

The specific case you are referring to is a Farang who worked in Thailand, paid taxes, and then stopped filing returns after retirement. The Revenue Dept noticed the failure to file a return, and took action.

 

The lesson here is that, once you are in the RD system, they can require you to file a return.

 

But 99% of Farangs are not in the RD system, and those are the people this topic about.

[Danderman123]

On 9/1/2024 at 9:24 AM, chiang mai said:

That comes as no surprise. My best advice is that nobody should think about retaining these tax experts to file their tax return until at least mid February, By that time, all the tax news that's available will be out and there will be some first hand reports by that time.

And meanwhile, I am staying out of Thailand in 2024 for all but 179 days, so as not to be a tax resident. I will monitor what happens in 2025 to decide on future residency. 

 

If some of you are sent to the monkey house for failure to file, then I will never be a Thai tax resident.

[chiang mai]

15 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

The specific case you are referring to is a Farang who worked in Thailand, paid taxes, and then stopped filing returns after retirement. The Revenue Dept noticed the failure to file a return, and took action.

 

The lesson here is that, once you are in the RD system, they can require you to file a return.

 

But 99% of Farangs are not in the RD system, and those are the people this topic about.

I'm in the system and have been for twenty years. Some years I file, some years I don't need to, often three of four in a row and nothing is ever said.

[chiang mai]

17 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

The specific case you are referring to is a Farang who worked in Thailand, paid taxes, and then stopped filing returns after retirement. The Revenue Dept noticed the failure to file a return, and took action.

 

The lesson here is that, once you are in the RD system, they can require you to file a return.

 

But 99% of Farangs are not in the RD system, and those are the people this topic about.

The issue in this matter is whether or not foreigners would be prevented from leaving the country, if the TRD had them under investigation or thought they may owe tax. The answer is very clearly that they would.

[Danderman123]

2 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

The issue in this matter is whether or not foreigners would be prevented from leaving the country, if the TRD had them under investigation or thought they may owe tax. The answer is very clearly that they would.

The question is how the Revenue Department would have a Farang under investigation if that Farang has never filed a tax return.

 

The vast majority of Farangs living in Thailand have never worked in Thailand, and therefore have never filed a Thai tax return.

[Danderman123]

6 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

I'm in the system and have been for twenty years. Some years I file, some years I don't need to, often three of four in a row and nothing is ever said.

The vast majority of Farangs living in Thailand have never filed a tax return. The question is how the Revenue Department will identify them. More to the point, very few of those retired Farangs will have sufficient accessible income to require filing a tax return.

 

Your experience is very different than that of most Farangs.

 

The issue now is whether RD will staff up to identify tax residents who haven't filed, or whether this new regulation will go the way of marijuana recriminalization.

[TheAppletons]

Yawn.  

[chiang mai]

46 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

The question is how the Revenue Department would have a Farang under investigation if that Farang has never filed a tax return.

 

The vast majority of Farangs living in Thailand have never worked in Thailand, and therefore have never filed a Thai tax return.

It's not that difficult to imagine that scenario in any country. TRD sees (via BOT) banking transactions  of a decent size and frequency coming in from overseas and notes there is no corresponding tax return to account for them, those two checks are hardly rocket science.  It may be the bank account pays decent interest and the holder also pays tax which he doesn't try to reclaim....why is that they ask themselves. I know, let's ask Immi if this guy has a long stay visa....he does they say.....and so on and so on.

[chiang mai]

55 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

The vast majority of Farangs living in Thailand have never filed a tax return. The question is how the Revenue Department will identify them. More to the point, very few of those retired Farangs will have sufficient accessible income to require filing a tax return.

 

Your experience is very different than that of most Farangs.

 

The issue now is whether RD will staff up to identify tax residents who haven't filed, or whether this new regulation will go the way of marijuana recriminalization.

Well, I don't know the answer to that question but since I file a tax return every year, I don't need to worry about the answer!

 

BTW how do you know my experience is different from most farangs that makes you think I am unique.  How many farangs do you know in Thailand relative to this issue?

Edited September 4 by chiang mai