New Tax Rules for Expats in Thailand Spark Concern

[Danderman123]

Just now, Mike Lister said:

If no assessable income, no need to file a return

Except in your scenario of the Revenue Department catching me for an audit, then wenshienshang could be caught and then he would have no tax return to show the auditors.

 

This is a common situation worldwide, people who don't think they owe don't file. But if they do owe, when they are audited, they are dead meat.

 

It's always better to file, since it reduces risks.

[JimGant]

1 hour ago, Chris BKK said:

Have people considered the impact on foreign funds being used to support 'girl friends', wives and perhaps children in Thailand from a farang. If say a farang sends B30k per month to Thailand from abroad then the Thai referred to above could be up for tax on the foreign income. By rough reckoning that could see the Thai recipient up for tax, depending on age etc, for up to B7.5k per year. So not only the expat up for tax but the Thai foreign income recipient. Some of those Thais would have never been registered for tax (no TIN) or ever paid tax. How will the Revenue Dept treat this income?

Not unless she provided a product or service of equal or near equal value to the amount of money you sent her. Then, yes, it's income earned in Thailand and she's then on the hook for income taxes in Thailand. Otherwise, the money you send her could be 1. a gift; 2. a loan; or 3. your money, to be held temporarily by her, until you arrive to pick it up (a situation that could occur, should you not have a Thai bank account). In these three situations, the wife/gf is not subject to income tax. The only potential tax is a gift tax, for amounts over 20M/10M baht (wife/gf).

 

You, however, are subject to Thai income tax on remitted assessable income (as stipulated in the tax treaty) and earned after Jan 1 2024. [There's a question on whether or not a gift might be tax exempt; the jury is still out on this question.]

[cjinchiangrai]

Just now, AllanA said:

I think a lot of the retirees will end up moving to another country now and most likely Cambodia or Vietnam as they won’t be able to afford being taxed in Thailand plus anyone thinking of Thailand as a place to retire now would seriously be thinking of a new destination. All this is definitely going to hurt places like Hua Hin, Pattaya, Chang Mai and outer Phuket where a lot of retirees currently live. 

Hopefully it will be all the cheap Charlies with their illegal visa extensions. See ya!

[Presnock]

1 hour ago, Phulublub said:

Ah...perhaps this is the underlying reason for the "new" article that tells us not a single thing we did not already know.

 

PH

I would think that any expat here would have already read any DTA with his/her country and Thailand, and that is why I think the message today is from the "tax agents" to get their name known by expats worried about filing their taxes for this year.  Good luck to all

[atpeace]

Let me summarize the thousands of pages on this subject.

 

There might be stricter enforcement of tax laws that apply to tax residents.  This won't impact to savings prior to 2024 nor will it apply to savings after 2024 if taxes were paid in your home country. 

 

So basically a tax return might be required and no taxes due for 99.99% of xpats here.  the rest of this thread is driven by anxiety and I would bet Thais reading this thread are laughing at us pissing ourselves.  I know I am 🙂

[Mike Lister]

6 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

Except in your scenario of the Revenue Department catching me for an audit, then wenshienshang could be caught and then he would have no tax return to show the auditors.

 

This is a common situation worldwide, people who don't think they owe don't file. But if they do owe, when they are audited, they are dead meat.

 

It's always better to file, since it reduces risks.

The TRD Code states that minimum assessable income thresholds are 60k or 120k, depending on the type and source of income, 220k for married couple, before needing to file. If a person has no assessable income, they don't need to file. If they have no income, what are they going to report?

[Danderman123]

4 minutes ago, AllanA said:

I think a lot of the retirees will end up moving to another country now and most likely Cambodia or Vietnam as they won’t be able to afford being taxed in Thailand plus anyone thinking of Thailand as a place to retire now would seriously be thinking of a new destination. All this is definitely going to hurt places like Hua Hin, Pattaya, Chang Mai and outer Phuket where a lot of retirees currently live. 

But....

 

Nobody knows about the new tax rules, so why would anyone move on account of these new rules?

[lordgrinz]

5 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

What representation do Immigrants to your home country get for their taxes?

In the USA? Umm.....what do they not get?!

[Danderman123]

1 minute ago, Mike Lister said:

The TRD Code states that minimum income thresholds are 60k or 120k, depending on the type and source of income, 220k for married couple, before needing to file. If a person has no assessable income, they don't need to file. If they have no income, what are they going to report?

Income and accessible income are not the same thing.

[Danderman123]

Just now, lordgrinz said:

In the USA? Umm.....what do they not get?!

They have taxation, but no representation.

[herfiehandbag]

3 hours ago, nickmondo said:

this article is nothing but scaremongering

there is no new information here.

everyone knows that the truth is...............nobody knows 

disgraceful article, and very annoying.

The key " take away" from the OP is "Despite the challenges, proper planning and professional advice will be crucial in navigating this new landscape."

 

I sense a bandwagon getting ready to roll...

[Mike Lister]

Just now, Danderman123 said:

Income and accessible income are not the same thing.

Sorry, I intended to write assessable income, you are correct, i'll go back and change it.

[lordgrinz]

1 minute ago, Danderman123 said:

They have taxation, but no representation.

 

They get free medical, free housing, chance at citizenship, and if working and paying SS they get to collect that too......what more should they get?

[Danderman123]

4 minutes ago, atpeace said:

Let me summarize the thousands of pages on this subject.

 

There might be stricter enforcement of tax laws that apply to tax residents.  This won't impact to savings prior to 2024 nor will it apply to savings after 2024 if taxes were paid in your home country. 

 

So basically a tax return might be required and no taxes due for 99.99% of xpats here.  the rest of this thread is driven by anxiety and I would bet Thais reading this thread are laughing at us pissing ourselves.  I know I am 🙂

Only if there is a tax treaty with your home country. And the tax rates in your home country are higher than Thailand's.

 

And you don't mind mind completing a Thai return.

[Presnock]

55 minutes ago, J Branche said:

6 PAGES Of Random Useless Chatter

Thai Revenue Department is the Official Tax Authority in Thailand rd.go.th

Go here https://www.rd.go.th/21/page-2.html click on 21 November 2023 document titled

"Questions - Answers about paying personal income tax according to Section 41, paragraph two, of the Revenue Code"

"The provisions of paragraph one shall not apply to assessable income arising before the date 1 January 2024"

Also known as Order P.162 /2023 signed by Director General of the Revenue Department

 

Supporting documentation in English,

Google. thai revenue department FOREIGNERS_PAY_TAX2024.pdf

 

Dual Tax Agreements and Treaties 

 

The US and other Tax Agreements are Still Enforce and should be complied with.

 

US Tax Agreement PDF Page 23

ARTICLE 20

Pensions and Social Security Payments

 1. Subject to the provisions of paragraph 2 of Article 21 (Government Service), pensions and other similar remuneration paid to a resident of a Contracting State in consideration of past employment shall be taxable only in that State.

 2. Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraph 1, social security benefits and other similar public pensions paid by a Contracting State to a resident of the other Contracting State or a citizen of the United States shall be taxable only in the first-mentioned State.

 

If THIS information from Official sources is Not Accurate, Please share the email from the Thai Revenue Department stating otherwise.

 

Took me 20 minutes to find this information on Official Websites.

 

Tax Agreements are still Enforced.

Thai Revenue Department is the Official Tax Authority in THAILAND

 

JUst like the message today at the beginning of this activity - you are just rehashing all of the same info that has been written here many times by many people.  Sort of like all the questions about one's personal financial dealings continue to ask the same questions over and over...The info on DTA's has been available forever - and on this forum for many months telling exactly where it is, etc  for all the different DTA's this on the US I myself have mentioned it many times as it is easily available for folks.

[Danderman123]

Just now, lordgrinz said:

 

They get free medical, free housing, chance at citizenship, and if working and paying SS they get to collect that too......what more should they get?

You are very misinformed about conditions in the USA for legal immigrants.

 

But yes, they have the right to pay Social Security tax.

[Danderman123]

4 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Sorry, I intended to write assessable income, you are correct, i'll go back and change it.

I had a friend who determined they had no taxable income, and thus didn't file their taxes. The IRS found them, audited them, they went to tax court, and were sentenced to 7 years in Federal prison.

[bob smith]

....It truly is a wonderful feeling knowing that no matter what happens you have the money and resources to move to new pastures at the drop of a hat, should the Thai authorities want to play their silly little games.

 

I am the one with the money.

 

and it is my choice how and where I spend it!

 

bob.

Edited May 30 by bob smith

[lordgrinz]

Just now, Danderman123 said:

You are very misinformed about conditions in the USA for legal immigrants.

 

But yes, they have the right to pay Social Security tax.

 

Believe whatever you want to, they get boatloads of support in the USA.

[Danderman123]

Just now, lordgrinz said:

 

Believe whatever you want to, they get boatloads of support in the USA.

Not the norm for immigrants to the US.

 

You have heard about some special cases and convinced yourself that everyone gets the same benefits.

[Mike Lister]

The debate is Thai taxes, let's not stray into the US, social security and immigration please.

[Aussie999]

47 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Tax residency is not visa dependent, it depends solely on the number of days spent in the country, in a calendar year. every country is the same in this respect.

Thanks for clearing that up

[worrab]

1 hour ago, Peterphuket said:

by the way the maximum guarantee on your account is 1 million bath, still something to worry about.

Yes, you are correct. But if any bank like Bangkok Bank is going to go under, there will be plenty of warning signs to give time to move elsewhere. But it is no different anywhere else in the world. Any bank can go under for any number of reasons.  

[herfiehandbag]

15 minutes ago, cjinchiangrai said:

Hopefully it will be all the cheap Charlies with their illegal visa extensions. See ya!

Harry Enfield is back!

[lordgrinz]

1 minute ago, Danderman123 said:

Not the norm for immigrants to the US.

 

You have heard about some special cases and convinced yourself that everyone gets the same benefits.

 

Compared to Thailand, being an immigrant in the USA is a dream.....here, you are treated as a nuisance while they pick your pocket and scam you to death.

[Presnock]

50 minutes ago, Derek B said:

The folk I support here in Thailand are ALL in the grey economy and pay no income taxes whilst still having a vote. They will loose out to the value of any Thai tax I pay.

 

If you maintain 800K for the purposes of visa renewal you are not actually showing any Thai income except interest accrued.

 

If you go the 65K per month route that income is already spent 100% in the "village" economy so to speak. The resultant "village" income will drop by the tax deducted which will go to central government coffers and will not be returned directly to the local economy. So effectiviely there is no levelling up with the locals only a net decline. I good vote loser policy it seems.

 

No matter what you will have to declare your global income I expect once you are given a Thai Tax ID number.

 

Until the dust settles limit your days incountry to 179 then leave until 2025 and only bring cash into Thailand.

 

Note: Some tax authorities have a general definition of 180 days that being for example in any continuous period of 365 days over successive tax years if 180 days are spent in country you would be a tax resident.

 

I think the Thai govt has spelled it out already, saying Jan1 until 31Dec of the same year.

 

[Old Croc]

46 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

The point is for people to listen to others to help them make a determination how to prepare for Taxarmageddon. Or do nothing at all.

 

I got out of Dodge, and will stay out of Thailand for 181 days in 2024. Mexico is nice this time of year.

Tell that to all the Australian surfers who get murdered in Mexico.

 

I keep up with local and world news in my remote village using high speed internet better than I had in Phuket and Australia!

Knowledge is not limited by geography in this day and age.

Edited May 30 by Old Croc

[maddox41]

Works out ok for me as I will just spend 170 days, in Thailand and the rest in Australia. 

I spoke to my tax agent here and she said you submit a tax return in Thailand with all your tax receipts here translated into Thai she said your income isn't from property or business it's a super fund income as I'm retired. Australia has a treaty with Thailand she says it's a pain but shouldn't be a issue. I said aha you don't live there. 

 

Just more work and  money to the Thai economy for nothing. 

What makes me laugh is they want your to come and retire there  you spend your money  I'd say 4 times more then a local Thai to their economy but double  tax you great way to lose your expat community. 

Vietnam is going to be the next expat retire hotspot in the coming years? Then when the sh..  hits the fan they will change it. 

I'm not sure if it's true but if you have a Thai elite visa you are exempt maybe just more BS 

 

[freeworld]

6 hours ago, Metapod said:

this is going to have large ramifications to thailand. 

No it will not. Companies and people will just be subject to tax in line with OECD, UN and CRS norms and local taxation rules.

 

Thailand as a country will still survive and they can amend their tax laws further if something is not working.

[CharlesHolzhauer]

55 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

Any idea what the maximum amount would be off of the top of your head, as I can't see that being that much, plus we both have kids, maybe if it's not restricted to one, I can spread the LOVE, so to speak 🥰