New Tax Rules for Expats in Thailand Spark Concern

[JoePai]

2 hours ago, Coxy said:

Looks like I will be spending at least 6 months in Cambodia or Laos.  I will not be donating anything to this government 

Bye

[Ben Zioner]

1 hour ago, Danderman123 said:

My feeling is that the answer is no.

 

But, it's possible.

But they don't need too. But they will call up every single transaction of the people they audit. Don't forget that how the system works: you declare, they audit randomly, if they catch you evading IT they will hurt you a lot. You can call this dissuasion, but that's what most countries do.

[Danderman123]

Here's what everyone always misses in any topic about Thai taxes:

 

When you fill out a tax return in your home country, you don't worry about tax treaty provisions, because all of your reported income is generated in your home county (for 99.9% of you).

 

Conversely, to fill out a Thai tax return, you will invoke provisions of a tax treaty (most of you) to reduce your tax liability. This is very different than your experience back home. And, it's unclear how much support for tax treaties are in the Thai tax forms.

 

Important note: those who work and pay taxes don't worry about tax treaties when filling out tax forms. What this means is 99+% of posters have no clue how to use tax treaties to reduce their Thai tax liability. 

 

So this is going to be new to almost everybody. 

[NorthernRyland]

1 hour ago, WingFat said:

While I sympathize with those who will find this a challenge to pay Thai taxes, the saying of "there's no free lunch" comes to mind. And the argument that these people contribute to the Thai economy in other ways, well, so does everyone else.

 

 

No taxation without representation. 

[Mike Lister]

4 minutes ago, motdaeng said:

 

how can you be so sure about that?

 

because for the moment nothing is sure about how, when or what will happen with the new tax law ...

It's my opinion, based on what I understand about the complexities involved and the lack of interdepartmental cooperation. It's a very big step with lots of hurdles that aren't easily removed.

[10baht]

1 hour ago, ChasingTheSun said:

Doesn't apply to anyone bringing in capital derived prior to 2024:

Let's say I earn $100k in 2024 but have 5 million in the bank (outside Thailand) at the end of 2023. How do they know which money I am bring into Thailand?  5000000/100000 = 50 years of earnings before 2024!!!

[Danderman123]

2 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

But they don't need too. But they will call up every single transaction of the people they audit. Don't forget that how the system works: you declare, they audit randomly, if they catch you evading IT they will hurt you a lot. You can call this dissuasion, but that's what most countries do.

How would the Revenue Department find me to audit me?

[Mike Lister]

6 minutes ago, wensiensheng said:

So if I live off my capital and don’t bring any income in to Thailand, or earn any income here, do I still need to fill in a tax return? 
 

no taxable income to declare will be a nil return if so

already answered above....NO

[Ben Zioner]

12 minutes ago, Chris BKK said:

How will the Revenue Dept treat this income?

You just gave the answer.

[Danderman123]

1 minute ago, 10baht said:

Let's say I earn $100k in 2024 but have 5 million in the bank (outside Thailand) at the end of 2023. How do they know which money I am bring into Thailand?  5000000/100000 = 50 years of earnings before 2024!!!

If audited, you would have to prove that money you transmitted into Thailand came from pre-2024 savings.

[Danderman123]

43 minutes ago, worrab said:

I have checked the situation with large amounts in a Thai bank and it is just as safe there as anywhere else. There is more than enough protection in place. The only time it could go wrong is if the bank went bankrupt which is highly unlikely with the big banks.

Ignorance is bliss.

[Mike Lister]

3 minutes ago, 10baht said:

Let's say I earn $100k in 2024 but have 5 million in the bank (outside Thailand) at the end of 2023. How do they know which money I am bring into Thailand?  5000000/100000 = 50 years of earnings before 2024!!!

How do they know? The question is, what are you going to declare and say it is? It's not as though you remit some money to Thailand and the TRD has to guess what it is. The purpose of the tax return is for you to tell them. Their job is to determine if they believe you and whether to ask for more evidence.

[mrbojangles]

2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

One liberal estimate puts the total value of all westerns in Thailand at around 3% of GDP per year. Recent surveys have shown that less than 10% of them plan to leave as a result of the tax change, some of that will be talk. Impact?  Minimal, is my guess.

 

I normally change my car every 3 years and my current car is 3 years old this month. Due to the uncertainty around the tax implications of transferring large sums here, I've decided to hold off buying a new car for now. Several of my mates are doing the same thing. Dont know how many other expats will hold off buying big ticket items (even houses/condos) as they don't want to trigger any alarms by transferring large sums of money into their bank accounts.

[10baht]

1 hour ago, Richard5 said:

Everything is trackable...Wise, Credit Cards. ATM withdrawals...literally everything. If you believe that this is going to be short lived, not enforced or is lacking in details  I think you will be in for an unpleasant  surprise 

More of these are used by visitors not living here or staying over 180 days, chasing all the bogus ( for taxing purposes) transactions will be a costly proposition. Then filtering out the taxable transactions will be a nightmare. 

[Mike Lister]

6 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

How would the Revenue Department find me to audit me?

At some point you are going to present your passport to somebody, either on the way in or the way out. At that point, they found you.

[Ben Zioner]

5 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

How would the Revenue Department find me to audit me?

You should open a new thread on this topic.

 

But I could say banks (overseas and local), Immigration, neighbours, etc..

[10baht]

1 minute ago, Mike Lister said:

7 minutes ago, 10baht said:

which money I am bring into Thailand?  5000000/100000 = 50 years of earnings before 2024!!!

How do they know? The question is, what are you going to declare and say it is? It's not as though you remit some money to Thailand and the TRD has to guess what it is. The purpose of the tax return is for you to tell them. Their job is to determine if they believe you and whether to ask for more evidence.

Good point, so I guess I report a truthful "0" earnings from 2024 was brought into Thailand. Thanks

[10baht]

6 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

If audited, you would have to prove that money you transmitted into Thailand came from pre-2024 savings.

They will not have the money to pay for audits. And how do you prove a negative?

[Danderman123]

24 minutes ago, wensiensheng said:

So if I live off my capital and don’t bring any income in to Thailand, or earn any income here, do I still need to fill in a tax return? 
 

no taxable income to declare will be a nil return if so

If you don't bring any money into Thailand, no need to file a tax return, unless Immigration Department demands one (unlikely).

[jayboy]

17 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

The Mastercard and Visa networks report traffic, volumes and transactions to BOT, it's an important part of BOT's currency management. I have no doubt that data is shared.

 

Seriously misleading.Global Payment Agencies certainly do have reporting responsibilities and Central Banks like BOT will use that information regarding overall financial flows as part of their arsenal.But there is no question of routine individual transactions being monitored.If one used a credit card issued by a Thai bank there might in the future be some monitoring process leading to questions if anything seemed unusual - but in my opinion this is unlikely.As for cards issued by foreign banks with settlement made overseas, the suggestion that any Thai authority would be monitoring let alone acting on findings on individual transactions, is just plain ridiculous.

[Peterphuket]

1 hour ago, sungod said:

Loads of hype at the moment, just have to sit back and see what works and what doesn't. I've been here a considerable time and really not worried about this, they cant even enforce people to wear crash helmets or stop at red lights. I haven't seen any reports on major recruiting for the revenue department to deal with all the extra work. Government departments are still using Hotmail and gmail as their addresses, there's efficiency.......

 

 

In part, what you mention is true but their trump card is the immigration office.
If they leave the control to them it becomes a bit more difficult it seems to me, but even I am not worried, I have no income from abroad and I am not doing any work here either.

[4MyEgo]

3 hours ago, ukrules said:

Nonsense

 

Many people don't spend 180 days a year in the country and what if your extension is in December just before the end of the tax year - how they gonna get around that?

 

 

Oh really, based on ?

 

3 to 4 million expats

 

Thailand is a country rich in heritage and culture, which is highly popular among expats. As of 2023, around 3 to 4 million expats live and work in Thailand, which make up approximately 5% to 6% of the total population. Thailand is ruled by a monarchy with a government in place.Jun 13, 2566 BE

[Danderman123]

Just now, 10baht said:

They will not have the money to pay for audits. And how do you prove a negative?

If there are no audits, the system fails.

 

Certainly, there would be no expectation that Farangs would file tax returns.

[Danderman123]

1 minute ago, jayboy said:

 

Seriously misleading.Global Payment Agencies certainly do have reporting responsibilities and Central Banks like BOT will use that information regarding overall financial flows as part of their arsenal.But there is no question of routine individual transactions being monitored.If one used a credit card issued by a Thai bank there might in the future be some monitoring process leading to questions if anything seemed unusual - but in my opinion this is unlikely.As for cards issued by foreign banks with settlement made overseas, the suggestion that any Thai authority would be monitoring let alone acting on findings on individual transactions, is just plain ridiculous.

The implication is that any Thai business that receives payment via foreign credit cards doesn't have to declare those payments, since an audit can't flag them.

 

Great news for hotels and restaurants.

[worrab]

9 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

Ignorance is bliss.

Not a case of ignorance. What facts can you produce to say the money is no safer here than anywhere else. 
My bank manager here can give the same reassurances as my bank in UK!!

[10baht]

2 minutes ago, Danderman123 said:

If there are no audits, the system fails.

Nothing new to Thailand, failed schemes , like the 300 baht tax on airline arrivals they have been trying to do for years?

[Danderman123]

5 minutes ago, 10baht said:

They will not have the money to pay for audits. And how do you prove a negative?

No need to prove a negative. Simply document that money transferred into Thailand was earned prior to 2024.

[Mike Lister]

2 minutes ago, jayboy said:

 

Seriously misleading.Global Payment Agencies certainly do have reporting responsibilities and Central Banks like BOT will use that information regarding overall financial flows as part of their arsenal.But there is no question of routine individual transactions being monitored.If one used a credit card issued by a Thai bank there might in the future be some monitoring process leading to questions if anything seemed unusual - but in my opinion this is unlikely.As for cards issued by foreign banks with settlement made overseas, the suggestion that any Thai authority would be monitoring let alone acting on findings on individual transactions, is just plain ridiculous.

I never suggested that individual transactions were being monitored, only that the capability exists.

 

A foreign credit/debit card transaction has a large footprint. The merchant has a record, the merchants bank has a record for settlement purposes, Visa/Mastercard has a copy and the central bank gets a copy.

[Mike Lister]

5 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

Oh really, based on ?

 

3 to 4 million expats

 

Thailand is a country rich in heritage and culture, which is highly popular among expats. As of 2023, around 3 to 4 million expats live and work in Thailand, which make up approximately 5% to 6% of the total population. Thailand is ruled by a monarchy with a government in place.Jun 13, 2566 BE

That 3 or 4 million comprises everyone from neighbouring countries, Chinese, Laos, Burmese, Cambodian , Malay etc etc. A huge percentage of them will not earn enough to pay tax, let alone file a return. Western expats are believed to be in the region of 300k, including retirees.. 

[worrab]

48 minutes ago, HappyExpat57 said:

NOT nonsense! Immigration doesn't care how many days you spend in Thailand - if you are filing for an annual extension, they will probably be instructed to require the retiree to file a tax return for approval. Add to that how every immigration office follows their own interpretation of the rules and you have a recipe for the perfect cluster kcuf.

But as I have stated elsewhere in this topic, what if you do not need to file a tax return?? There are those who would not need to.