Thailand to tax residents’ foreign income irrespective of remittance

[Yumthai]

9 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

33 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

CRS kicks in only with offshore accounts registered with Thai residence address.

I would not count on that. 

 

CRS requires financial institutions to identify customer tax residencies and report financial accounts held directly or indirectly by foreign tax residents to local tax authorities.

 

How would a bank send information to a country they are not aware of?

[ChaiyaTH]

8 minutes ago, freeworld said:

See the news

 

https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2024-06-05/police-officers-in-the-philippines-arrested-for-kidnapping-tourists-demanding-ransom

Thailand also has those additional taxes, such as bar girl tax etc etc.

[Sheryl]

2 hours ago, lordgrinz said:

 

Well, until they state what is acceptable proof of savings, it would be better not to send anything. I don't believe in the, just ignore it until they come looking approach.

The RD does not state what is "acceptable proof" nor require "proofs" to be submitted with tax returns.

 

They can call you in for questioning later if they have doubts about your return. In my experience when they do (usually they do not) , there is no specific defined proof you must show. Depends on the situation and the person interviewing you, who needs to feel satisfied with your answers and that they have done their due diligence .  It does help to have some sort of supporting documentation where applicable but there is no specified requirement. 

 

If you try to claim you live without any sort of income, or an implausibly low income, they aren't going to believe this. But if you have a reasonable  explanation consistent with the return you filed, I think will be OK. 

 

The biggest pitfall I can forsee is if the tax forms continue to have no way to show non-assessable income and you live mainly on same. 

[Presnock]

22 minutes ago, ChaiyaTH said:

I think you don't really get the point at all. What you are speaking about; is people who always complained about visa issues. The visa issue is now soon to be resolved.

The new issue now, actually gets to people, who make very decent money, and do have plenty of options to live anywhere on the world. Specially if they would be taxed.

 

You are comparing apples with pears here. I would need to pay like 1K USD in taxes, to then still pay my Thai rent and a International school. All that money combined, could make me rent anywhere on the planet, knowing that in most expensive countries the public schools are fine too. Is like 2.5K USD.

 

It makes Thailand like as expensive as Monaco is for a family with 2 children in Inter schools + being taxed. Maybe that is overkill example but close.

Yessir, totally agree that some folks might be treated roughly if this comes to pass.  It won't really impact me that much unless they start changing a lot of other laws and finance too then I would leave and take my family with me.  I can afford luckily to live just about anywhere, even here with some changes but it might come down to the principle of the treatment of expats that have been spending money since their arrival.  I know how much I have spent and am spending counting house, international schools, college, cars, etc since my retirement here 20 years ago.  I don't it would be fair especially those on the borderline of survival even here and all because of ineffective governement and unwarranted spending.  My opinion only of course for whatever it may be worth.

[ChaiyaTH]

2 minutes ago, Presnock said:

Yessir, totally agree that some folks might be treated roughly if this comes to pass.  It won't really impact me that much unless they start changing a lot of other laws and finance too then I would leave and take my family with me.  I can afford luckily to live just about anywhere, even here with some changes but it might come down to the principle of the treatment of expats that have been spending money since their arrival.  I know how much I have spent and am spending counting house, international schools, college, cars, etc since my retirement here 20 years ago.  I don't it would be fair especially those on the borderline of survival even here and all because of ineffective governement and unwarranted spending.  My opinion only of course for whatever it may be worth.

Well for me it is just very simple math, I already have to pay a private school as public is not good enough, same for health insurances. Then also for retirement. If they want these percentages in tax, which is easy 20-30K or more, monthly, it is just too much to be worth while.

 

The tax money + education money combined gives me access to most places. The education cost is already a weight on my shoulders. It would simply cost as much as a decent country cost at that point, which makes it not really worth it at all to be here.

Edited June 7 by ChaiyaTH

[Porthos]

Here is the original Thai source of this news. It was a meeting of the Deputy Finance Minister and the RD on 31 May.

 

https://www.thansettakij.com/business/economy/597533

[retarius]

3 minutes ago, lordgrinz said:

 

I wouldn't even want to get to that point, which is why we need clear guidance before sending money. If it's in black and white, and they state what is acceptable evidence of savings beforehand, then so be it, but ambiguity? No way I am stepping into that hornets nest, especially here.

Knowing how picky and insanely different each immigration office can be (and is) with regard to documents submitted, I do have a concern about this. Suppose I get a bank statement, yup, I download it from my app and show it to the tax inspector and he says, 'oh this is no good, I want to see the statement onspecial bank notepaper, with a red seal from bank and the signature of manager'. Oops, I guess I'm going to call my bank and speak to an actual person?????? NFW. What next, same with my US tax filing, filed electronically? 

According to my calculations, I have been careful and only transferred savings as of 12/31, and so should owe nothing, but proving it without a shadow of a doubt in these days of zero and AI useless bank customer service (unless you are asking one of the 4 questions that the AI BOT can answer by referring you to the website).

I have decided to opt for the less than 180 days in Thailand option....not resident for tax purposes....no tax return to fill out and no questions to be asked, just show your passport. I am fortunate to have another home elsewhere, but will be sure not to stay there for more than 179 days and will pick some tropical paradise to stay (with my tax savings) for the remaining few days We must not forget that 2024 is a leap year of 366 of the year, so I'll have to pick somewhere nice for the extra 7 days. 

[Lorry]

2 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

The biggest pitfall I can forsee is if the tax forms continue to have no way to show non-assessable income and you live mainly on same. 

I know many people who live on non-assessable income (one guy lives on gifts from his TGF) or on savings they have inside Thailand (the RD does not automatically see this).

I always tell them to remit some assessable income,  so that it might be possible to live on this, e.g. 50,000 per month. 

 

A problem is that people have varying ideas of what a foreigner needs to survive. 

Whereas Thais survive on less than 10,000, I have known people explaining to me that it is impossible to live on less than 600,000 per month

[ChaiyaTH]

2 minutes ago, Lorry said:

Whereas Thais survive on less than 10,000, I have known people explaining to me that it is impossible to live on less than 600,000 per month

Survive is the key word, we could do that too: room for 2K, no visa costs, no insurance costs, 6K food, 1K gasoline, 1K internet etc.

[lordgrinz]

8 minutes ago, Porthos said:

Here is the original Thai source of this news. It was a meeting of the Deputy Finance Minister and the RD on 31 May.

 

https://www.thansettakij.com/business/economy/597533

 

The one hilarious part of that, is where they want the public to be aware they need to be taxed more for their receiving better welfare and amenities?! Like out of control pollution and unsafe roads/sidewalks/zebra crossings.....substandard building practices, substandard electrical practices, corrupt governments, etc etc etc?.......improve the welfare, safety, and amenities first, and clean corruption out of government (at least to some form of reasonable level), then come and talk to us about more taxes.

Edited June 7 by lordgrinz

[ChaiyaTH]

3 minutes ago, lordgrinz said:

 

The one hilarious part of that, is where they want the public to be aware they need to be taxed more for their receiving better welfare and amenities?! Like out of control pollution and unsafe roads/sidewalks/zebra crossings.....substandard building practices, substandard electrical practices, corrupt governments, etc etc etc?.......improve the welfare, safety, and amenities first, and clean corruption out of government (at least to some form of reasonable level), then come and talk to use about more taxes.

I i can deduct my private education cost the tax issue is resolved for me lol.

[ChaiyaTH]

Why they don't address the elephant in the room anyway. There is only like 20 families who get 80% of all the money in the first place, they clearly are not paying enough, so go get it from them and the issue would be resolved while leaving us alone.

[Presnock]

4 hours ago, lordgrinz said:

 

This is the part I want to have concrete verification from the RD on before I remit anything more, that it is indeed non-assessable income, and there is no need to file a return showing it (the remittance). Until that happens, I am living off what I sent before January 1st 2024, and no more money will be sent until I am sure this is settled.

 

one note, if the Thai govt decides to go this route and at the same time to drop benefits of DTA and LTR, the DTA treaty signed says that at least 6 months advance notice that one side or the other will cease following the actions of the DTA, so if they want to change everything so that all taxes are covered by all expats, we know for sure it can't happen until next year so while some may leave sooner before the end of this month, the rest of us will have until January.  Guess will be a few houses and condos going on sale if that were to happen.  But, then again TIT and maybe some of the leaders will wake up shortly or be totally gone out of the picture.  Good luck to all.

[Presnock]

2 hours ago, Neeranam said:

Good point - many already use agents to stay here illegally, ie without the necessary funds in the bank. In my 3 decades here they have often thrown hurdles to overcome, to find out there are agents and others to guide you around said hurdles. 

guess I am pretty lucky then as I retired here 20 years ago and so far have never felt the need for an agent when meeting the requirements of the immigration folks.  Good luck to all

[ChaiyaTH]

16 minutes ago, Porthos said:

Here is the original Thai source of this news. It was a meeting of the Deputy Finance Minister and the RD on 31 May.

 

https://www.thansettakij.com/business/economy/597533

I just actually read this and it speaks about using AI, then we are really fked.

[John Drake]

41 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

You will need them only if your return is questioned, which most are not. You should certainly have supporting records  just in case but no need to worry now about translations  certifications etc which may not (probably will mot) even be requested. 

 

Is there a time limit for Thai audits. In the US, it is generally 3 years, with some exceptions for 6 years. But after three years, you generally don't need to worry. What about here?

[Sheryl]

6 minutes ago, John Drake said:

 

Is there a time limit for Thai audits. In the US, it is generally 3 years, with some exceptions for 6 years. But after three years, you generally don't need to worry. What about here?

No idea. The time I was called in, it was just a month or so after filing i.e. it occurred when the provincial RD first saw my return. I think it was more questioning  before accepting my return than an audit as such.

 

Later audits could of course occur but would be more likely in cases involving (or suspected of involving)  large amounts of money. 

[Misty]

13 minutes ago, John Drake said:

 

Is there a time limit for Thai audits. In the US, it is generally 3 years, with some exceptions for 6 years. But after three years, you generally don't need to worry. What about here?

 

Don't know about PIT, but on the corporate side I've been told generally audits go back 3 years, but sometimes can go back 5.  However, these limits generally apply only if a tax return was filed.  If no return was filed /for certain cases they can go back 10 years (statute of limitations is 10 years).

[spidermike007]

18 hours ago, JimGant said:

Are you talking about going from remittance taxation of worldwide income -- to just pure taxation of worldwide income? Very little, if any, difference -- unless somehow you could exist in Thailand without remitting any (or most) of your assessable income. I believe you're a Yank -- I'd really be interested in why you think the new worldwide income taxation will cost you any money? Thanx for your time.

Many have significant overseas income that is not brought into Thailand. For these creeps to even consider attempting to tax that would be insanity and a bizarre over reach of power. 

 

It is representative of incompetent and lazy minds, who are in way over their heads, when it comes to economic policy. 

[ChaiyaTH]

Check out the poll: 

 

[Presnock]

40 minutes ago, ChaiyaTH said:

Well for me it is just very simple math, I already have to pay a private school as public is not good enough, same for health insurances. Then also for retirement. If they want these percentages in tax, which is easy 20-30K or more, monthly, it is just too much to be worth while.

 

The tax money + education money combined gives me access to most places. The education cost is already a weight on my shoulders. It would simply cost as much as a decent country cost at that point, which makes it not really worth it at all to be here.

My daughter went to an international school - tuition more expensive than the top local universities here but, it was worth it based on her attitude about learning without me ever having to say anything except "well done young lady, proud of you" as she excelled - speaking, reading, etc 4 different languages as well as great computer skills and high math skills too in case she would ever need them.  The school, teachers and administrators were all super supportive and worked well with parents too in keeping kids on track - this during COVID and all except maybe Kindergarten didn't miss any academics as the school had already purchased an online teaching program in case they needed to close the school for pollution - lucky they had that program - very successful in my opinion - CMIS in Chiang Mai of course.

[Presnock]

9 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

Many have significant overseas income that is not brought into Thailand. For these creeps to even consider attempting to tax that would be insanity and a bizarre over reach of power. 

 

It is representative of incompetent and lazy minds, who are in way over their heads, when it comes to economic policy. 

well, that is it exactly isn't it.... previous govts spent on frivilous matters, new govt promised the citizens the moon as far as expenses go and then upon moving into the new govt found out the coffers were already empty before they were able to even touch it!  My opinion as I am not any kind of financial wizard either.  I have done office budgets and they were bad enough but once retired, one payment from the govt every month - taxes and insurance already taken out.  The provided with documents for everything from the office paying those funds, fill in a blank 1040, file with agency and viola! within two weeks only, a check from the govt again for overpayment!  Other than than here the finances have been fairly simple too and unless some vigorous changes to their tax laws then I am staying relaxed until the final programs are out.  I only follow on this forum to lend a little voice support to those that might be affected though they have been supporting a lot already just by living here.  Hopefully they have always paid any taxes necessary as it might help them over he hump in whatever does finally shake down from the trees.  Good luck to all.

[JimGant]

21 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

Many have significant overseas income that is not brought into Thailand. For these creeps to even consider attempting to tax that would be insanity and a bizarre over reach of power. 

But -- if you're a Yank -- you're already paying US taxes on that "significant overseas income." Thailand, going to worldwide taxation, is just going to now get a piece of the pie, per DTA -- and issue a credit to be absorbed by the US for those taxes Thailand is now collecting. For the Yank: In most cases, no change in total yearly taxes paid between both countries. For someone not paying taxes to home country -- well, welcome to the world of "you're going to pay someone," per OECD's guidance.

[Presnock]

55 minutes ago, lordgrinz said:

 

The one hilarious part of that, is where they want the public to be aware they need to be taxed more for their receiving better welfare and amenities?! Like out of control pollution and unsafe roads/sidewalks/zebra crossings.....substandard building practices, substandard electrical practices, corrupt governments, etc etc etc?.......improve the welfare, safety, and amenities first, and clean corruption out of government (at least to some form of reasonable level), then come and talk to us about more taxes.

well don't forget the war machines of all types, globe trotting of elected officials so they can relax and see how "it" is done elsewhere,  plus all those meetings to discuss the why isn't it working type and how much can we get to pay for what WE need.  Just too many things to consider for them

[freeworld]

1 hour ago, John Drake said:

 

Is there a time limit for Thai audits. In the US, it is generally 3 years, with some exceptions for 6 years. But after three years, you generally don't need to worry. What about here?

There is, its in the Thai tax code.

 

Section 19 Unless stated otherwise, in the case where an assessment official has a reasonable cause to believe that any person has filed a false or incomplete tax return, the assessment official shall have the power to issue a summons call upon that tax return filer for interrogation and issue a summons call upon a witness and order that tax return filer or witness to show accounts, documents or any other evidence but he shall give at least 7 days in advance from the date of delivery of summons. Nevertheless, the summons must be issued within 2 years from the date of tax return filing whether or not the filing was done within the time limit prescribed by law or the time extended by the Minister or Director-General, which ever is the later date.

Except there is evidence or reasonable doubt that a tax return filer has intention to evade tax or in the case necessary for the purpose of tax refund, a Director-General may extend the time for the issuance of such summons in excess of 2 years but not exceeding 5 years from the date of tax return filing. However, the extension of time limit for the purpose of tax refund shall not exceed the time limit for refund

 

There is also some 10 year limit (tax) in the civil and commercial code or criminal code..cant remember which.

 

Edited June 7 by freeworld

[JimGant]

4 hours ago, lordgrinz said:

What do they want to see as acceptable proof of funds being savings only?

Under this new "forget the remittance BS," it will only be the current tax year (normally coinciding with the calendar year) whose intake of funds will be subject to income scrutiny. In the US, the IRS knows what most of this income is -- due to 1099's -- but other income, like self-employment income, relies on self-assessment, to a large extent. Same for tip and gambling winnings, as an example. For Thailand, maybe FATCA and CRS reporting will provide income figures. But, I wouldn't, at this stage, put too much faith on the completeness of this reporting. Thus, self-assessment will play a bigger role in Thailand for getting anything approaching a representative picture of income potentially subject to taxation.

 

So under this new worldwide system -- any monies you possess that existed prior to the current tax year -- are savings. Don't need a special law, when remittances aren't involved, to designate a previous year as a 'savings' portfolio.

 

 

[JimGant]

1 hour ago, Sheryl said:

The biggest pitfall I can forsee is if the tax forms continue to have no way to show non-assessable income and you live mainly on same. 

First off, if I'm filing a tax return, I would have assessable income that exceeds the Thai standard deduction (TEDA) -- thus having taxable income. Otherwise, I wouldn't file. But you're saying you'd like Thai tax forms to have line items where I can put my non assessable income? What for? So the RD guy can argue with me on the fine points of my DTA, as to why it's not assessable? No way. I'd win the argument, at that level. No profit with this approach, just a waste of resources.

 

Now, for folks not filing tax returns, and who can be shown to have large cash flows into their Thai bank -- yeah, call them in for a chat on assessable vs non assessable income.

 

But line items for non assessable income, for the folks who actually file.....? Naaaa.

[Sheryl]

7 minutes ago, JimGant said:

First off, if I'm filing a tax return, I would have assessable income that exceeds the Thai standard deduction (TEDA) -- thus having taxable income. Otherwise, I wouldn't file. But you're saying you'd like Thai tax forms to have line items where I can put my non assessable income? What for? So the RD guy can argue with me on the fine points of my DTA, as to why it's not assessable? No way. I'd win the argument, at that level. No profit with this approach, just a waste of resources.

 

Now, for folks not filing tax returns, and who can be shown to have large cash flows into their Thai bank -- yeah, call them in for a chat on assessable vs non assessable income.

 

But line items for non assessable income, for the folks who actually file.....? Naaaa.

The problem is that may have some assessable income but much larger cash flow of non-assessable income.  And the assessable income may be so small as to clearly not be enough to live on,  thus sure to trigger questions.  With provincial staff who may never have heard of a DTA. 

 

 

[redwood1]

1 hour ago, ChaiyaTH said:

Why they don't address the elephant in the room anyway. There is only like 20 families who get 80% of all the money in the first place, they clearly are not paying enough, so go get it from them and the issue would be resolved while leaving us alone.

 

Sir please dont ask the mega wealthy to debase and lower themselves to the level of the dirty riff-raff ordinary tax payers.....Its simply a insult to the mega wealthy to imply that they should ever pay any taxes.... 

Edited June 7 by redwood1

[sandyf]

16 hours ago, Dogmatix said:

 

There is a thread on AN today saying this proposal has only just been approved by the cabinet.  Next stage is a finance ministry order in the Royal Gazette that could happen soon. Then it will come into effect 15 days later.  It is going to be in effect till the end of this year and will be reviewed to decide whether it will be extended or not. I guess a foregone conclusion that, no matter how much chaos it causes or how costly it is to collect amounts of tax under 10 baht, it will be hailed as great success and made permanent, assuming the government is still in power.

Well aware of the process. Poster I respondedd to said it was in effect "now".