Thailand to tax residents’ foreign income irrespective of remittance

[Mike Lister]

9 hours ago, Eudaimonia said:

I continue to be amazed by how the media operates. Thailand is about to be destroyed as a retirement destination, and many of the country's wealthiest residents are likely to move out if this goes through. Still, reporters have yet to ask for clarifications from the Finance Minister or Prime Minister. Is the Thai language media even reporting this?

The population of Thailand is circa 70 million, the Western expat population is about 300k and many of them are on pension income. Why would the Thai media report this, in the bigger picture of things there is hardly any story.

[Presnock]

On 6/12/2024 at 12:52 PM, TroubleandGrumpy said:

Today's anticipated Constitutional Court decision about MFP will go a long way to deciding Thailand's future - economically and politically. 

I must say - I knew Thailand had it's 'downsides' - but this is getting ridiculous - I am too old for this sheite. 

Hard not to agree.  Even if the hammer on the next tax scheme is shelved for the moment, prospective retirees from around the world will definitely hestitate before even considering retiring in Thailand because they will see just what the Thai leaders think or fail to understand.  If other countries are right around the corner and offer some benefits be it financial (i.e. tax free) lower living costs, less immigration interference in everyday life, why would one choose Thailand?  I think that no matter what the Thai govt does this year or next, they will find that the Revenue Department will be taking in a lot less monies from the ex-pats.  This coming first quarter may look good with "tax free" condo purchases but that might not come to pass either.  Those planning to buy condos with old savings obviously must be planning to spend at less than 6 months here or will be staying no matter what the tax situation will be.  Good luck to all

[Eudaimonia]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

The population of Thailand is circa 70 million, the Western expat population is about 300k and many of them are on pension income. Why would the Thai media report this, in the bigger picture of things there is hardly any story.

 

Surely, we must agree that population size is irrelevant, as a big country also has more news outlets. I'm not asking this to be prime-time news on Thai TV. But I see a lot of stories about other tax issues that nobody really cares about, even in English.

[fortz]

21 hours ago, NanLaew said:

 

Malaysia has been on a tax grab for about 4 or 5 years already. Started before Covid.

Can you clarify this? I thought Malaysia was still a territorial based tax system, with only remittances subject to tax?

[tomkenet]

58 minutes ago, fortz said:

Can you clarify this? I thought Malaysia was still a territorial based tax system, with only remittances subject to tax?

Malaysia changed to tax FSI (foreign source income)back in 2022 , it is however exempted thru 2026 if the income has been subject to taxation in county of origin.

I believe capital gains are not taxable in Malaysia.

 

 

[fortz]

28 minutes ago, tomkenet said:

Malaysia changed to tax FSI (foreign source income)back in 2022 , it is however exempted thru 2026 if the income has been subject to taxation in county of origin.

I believe capital gains are not taxable in Malaysia.

 

 

Do you have a link to any website where this is explained? According to the link below, FSI is only taxable if it is received in Malaysia.

https://www.taxathand.com/article/28412/Malaysia/2023/Revised-guidelines-issued-on-tax-treatment-of-foreign-source-income

[tomkenet]

1 hour ago, fortz said:

Do you have a link to any website where this is explained? According to the link below, FSI is only taxable if it is received in Malaysia.

https://www.taxathand.com/article/28412/Malaysia/2023/Revised-guidelines-issued-on-tax-treatment-of-foreign-source-income

You're right, it is only taxable if remitted into Malaysia.

This surely makes Malaysia a good asian alternative together with Philippines if the tax-situation in Thailand gets worse.

 

I assume the income must have been gained in current year or a previous year when you also were a tax resident. (Just like the new rules in Thailand)

 

 

[beammeup]

These are the types of discussions we need to be having. Many of us will be leaving Thailand for >180 days for 1 or more years so it is valuable to know which countries in SE asia are tax friendly. I believe Singapore does not tax capital gains. But is expensive and not easy to get long term visa's

[Presnock]

On 6/7/2024 at 12:38 PM, John Drake said:

 

Is there a time limit for Thai audits. In the US, it is generally 3 years, with some exceptions for 6 years. But after three years, you generally don't need to worry. What about here?

In the US, IRS says it is only necessary to keep copies of your last 5 years of tax forms 

[Freddy42OZ]

On 6/6/2024 at 8:45 AM, Neeranam said:

Most Thais I know take profits from Binance P2P. There are also people who you can send Bitcoin to and they deliver cash to your door. 

 

You and I know that.

 

[Gknrd]

Thailand just wants what they can get out of the existing expats, I don't think they care about new retiree's in the LOS's. Of course if stupid enough to come then they will gladly take your money.

[Neeranam]

On 6/14/2024 at 6:36 PM, Eudaimonia said:

I continue to be amazed by how the media operates. Thailand is about to be destroyed as a retirement destination, and many of the country's wealthiest residents are likely to move out if this goes through. Still, reporters have yet to ask for clarifications from the Finance Minister or Prime Minister. Is the Thai language media even reporting this?

Not that I have seen, well nothing to do with foreigners. 

[theblether]

I warned you about this ten years ago when I pointed out why you shouldn't retire to Thailand. Expatriate crisis on it's way ( again ). 

[Jingthing]

22 minutes ago, theblether said:

I warned you about this ten years ago when I pointed out why you shouldn't retire to Thailand. Expatriate crisis on it's way ( again ). 

The main problem with retiring here is no path to permanent residence.

It's way way too early for people to panic about the tax thing.

It could easily turn out to be nothingburger for the vast majority of retired expats.

[AreYouGerman]

7 hours ago, beammeup said:

These are the types of discussions we need to be having. Many of us will be leaving Thailand for >180 days for 1 or more years so it is valuable to know which countries in SE asia are tax friendly. I believe Singapore does not tax capital gains. But is expensive and not easy to get long term visa's

 

The Philippines is the best choice because it's literally the only country where you don't have to file income tax as a foreigner, resident or not. The other Asian countries all want you to file income tax as minimum requirement (meaning you have to send in documents for starters, what and how many taxes is another issue), however enforcement is another question. Singapore will enforce it for sure, other Asian countries not so sure.

[JackGats]

On 6/9/2024 at 8:41 PM, expatsoon said:

 

I think that was a wise decision as I have read the Government is now talking about revoking the tax free status of LTR visa holders.

Any sources, or things we can read about this?

[TroubleandGrumpy]

Thailand is going down a path that clearly indicates that this is not a country that western people with money/income from home should retire to in SEAsia. Philippines, Indonesia and Malaysia are also tax resident income tax systems, and they all state that anyone living in the country 180-183 days is a tax resident - but they have made allowances for retired/married Expats. Malaysia has specifically excluded the Pensions of Expats and they also excluded any income that has been subjected to the taxation system of the origin country (whether tax applied or not).  Philippines and Indonesia (P and I) have not changed their existing tax codes, because they both state that an Alien/Foreigner only pays income tax on revenue earned/made in their country, and both state that any income earned overseas by an Alien/Foreigner, whether brought into their country or not, is not taxable.  All three of those other countries have implemented the global taxation system OECD etc. but they have all either made allowances for Aliens/Foreigners, and/or they have kept those rules which exclude them from being taxed for any overseas incomes.

 

Thailand's existing taxation code does allow for the taxation of the overseas income of Aliens/Foreigners when remitted into Thailand. In the past Thailand did not apply this in practice - as with many things - but it looks like they now will be.  Thailand is looking to change their tax code in a year or two (maybe needs a change in the Act, but maybe not) such that all income of Aliens/Foreigners is taxable on a global basis, whether remitted to Thailand or not. 

 

All those things mean Thailand is not an ideal country in which to retire - from the perspective of income taxes.  Plus of course the Immigration and Visa issues are all bad, and far more onerous than all the other countries, except Vietnam. But Thailand is a great country with many good things that make retirement great - but they are no longer the ideal location to retire. If I did not have a Thai wife I would be visiting here for under 180 days each year - probably live in Philippines and enjoy Thailand as a holiday destination. If the poo hits the fan and this all goes pearshaped, then we will probably move there - the wife does not want to pay those corrupt f******** any of my money. 

[theblether]

2 hours ago, Jingthing said:

The main problem with retiring here is no path to permanent residence.

It's way way too early for people to panic about the tax thing.

It could easily turn out to be nothingburger for the vast majority of retired expats.

 

May well be except every new policy actually enacted has been aimed at reducing long stay for poorer individuals, and opening new visa streams for high net worth or highly educated, entrepreneurial types. 

 

We'll know in September when we discover the promised outcome of the review into retirement status which surely includes financial requirements. 

[Mike Lister]

4 hours ago, theblether said:

I warned you about this ten years ago when I pointed out why you shouldn't retire to Thailand. Expatriate crisis on it's way ( again ). 

 

4 hours ago, Jingthing said:

The main problem with retiring here is no path to permanent residence.

It's way way too early for people to panic about the tax thing.

It could easily turn out to be nothingburger for the vast majority of retired expats.

I couldn't agree more, it's way too early to panic and indeed the need to do so is unlikely to arise for most people. For many people this is "a nothing burger", financially that's what it will be for me at least and I can't be the only one. In particular, the US exemption of SSc payments is a godsend.

 

Retirement might be expected to span 30 years, it's foolish to think there wouldn't be events in that period that weren't anticipated....this is just one of them but frankly it was anticipated, and for many years. With only 6.5% of the population paying tax, something had to give at some point! I think the absence of a route to permanent residency is a red herring, that's xenophobia and a totally separate issue to who pays to keep the lights on in the bad times.

 

The biggest risk for most will be a knee jerk reaction that is unwarranted, that could really upset retirement.

[theblether]

11 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

 

I couldn't agree more, it's way too early to panic and indeed the need to do so is unlikely to arise for most people. For many people this is "a nothing burger", financially that's what it will be for me at least and I can't be the only one. In particular, the US exemption of SSc payments is a godsend.

 

Retirement might be expected to span 30 years, it's foolish to think there wouldn't be events in that period that weren't anticipated....this is just one of them but frankly it was anticipated, and for many years. With only 6.5% of the population paying tax, something had to give at some point! I think the absence of a route to permanent residency is a red herring, that's xenophobia and a totally separate issue to who pays to keep the lights on in the bad times.

 

The biggest risk for most will be a knee jerk reaction that is unwarranted, that could really upset retirement.

 

First, you'll be amazed at the number of people who do not anticipate changes. 

 

Second, it could well be a Black September. The last financial review was devastating to upcoming retirees. 

 

I don't know what is going to happen. My admittedly off-the-wall prediction is a statutory fee for retirement-style visas. 

 

It would be a simple tax to collect. People are unaware that the highest tax compliance category is airport tax, with 99.7% collection rates. 

 

Imposing a higher anual fee for retirees would be simple and many would rather pay than get entwined in the Thai tax reporting system. 

[tomkenet]

2 hours ago, theblether said:

 

First, you'll be amazed at the number of people who do not anticipate changes. 

 

Second, it could well be a Black September. The last financial review was devastating to upcoming retirees. 

 

I don't know what is going to happen. My admittedly off-the-wall prediction is a statutory fee for retirement-style visas. 

 

It would be a simple tax to collect. People are unaware that the highest tax compliance category is airport tax, with 99.7% collection rates. 

 

Imposing a higher anual fee for retirees would be simple and many would rather pay than get entwined in the Thai tax reporting system. 

Hope you are right, I would happily pay 10 times for my visa for the potential tax-bureaucracy and burden to go away.

 

I am sure the RD would also be happy to not have to deal with us. A lot of headache for them too.

 

 

[Mike Teavee]

On 6/15/2024 at 3:10 PM, Presnock said:

In the US, IRS says it is only necessary to keep copies of your last 5 years of tax forms 

I thought I read that Thailand could go back 10 years if they suspected Tax Evasion... IIRC It's 7 years in the UK.

[Alotoftravel]

17 hours ago, theblether said:

 

We'll know in September when we discover the promised outcome of the review into retirement status which surely includes financial requirements.

Can you please tell what we will know in September? Thanks 

[theblether]

1 hour ago, Alotoftravel said:

Can you please tell what we will know in September? Thanks 

 

The results of a government review into retirement style visas. 

[theblether]

Okay - you need to bookmark this link - this is critical to retirement planning, especially for people planning to retire soon. 

 

https://www.thaigov.go.th/news/contents/details/83599

 

This is the crucial passage: 

 

2.) Medium-term measures (consisting of 3 Measures starting from September - December 2024) include:
1. Grouping and reducing the code governing visas for temporary stays. (Non-Immigrant) from the original 17 codes, remaining 7 codes, which will begin operations within September 2024.
2. Adjust the criteria and conditions for receiving a Long Stay visa for the elderly who wish to spend their final days in Thailand. It will begin operations by September 2024.

 

[theblether]

I need someone with more knowledge or a better memory than me - from my recollection the last time the conditions were adjusted existing retirees were "grandfathered." That meant that they continued to qualify under the old requirements. 

 

People who did not have a retirement pension had to qualify under the new regime. 

 

I don't know what the adjustments will be. I think I can safely say that the financial requirements will not be adjusted downwards. If you are on the edge of applying for a retirement visa get on with it as you may receive a shock when the review is announced. 

 

More recently, the O-X visa requirements were adjusted to include mandatory insurance. The Thai government gave very little notice of the new requirements and put many people into an impossible position as they could not source legitimate insurance policies due to pre-existing conditions and their age. They did not grandfather those new requirements. 

 

Will this review be a nothingburger? I doubt it. 

[Lorry]

12 minutes ago, theblether said:

the last time the conditions were adjusted existing retirees were "grandfathered."

Not all were grandfathered.

Only those who had had continuous visa extensions for 6 years already. 

(I could be wrong about the exact number of years)

[theblether]

49 minutes ago, Lorry said:

Not all were grandfathered.

Only those who had had continuous visa extensions for 6 years already. 

(I could be wrong about the exact number of years)

 

Fair enough, I did say I needed someone with a better memory than me. 

 

I did think that the failure to grandfather the O-X visa insurance requirement was brutal - again, from memory, 80,000 people held that type of visa and they got a months notice to obtain insurance. 

 

One female pal ended up paying $6,000 a year for limited coverage. She tolerated it for a couple of years then repatriated. 

 

Anyway, my point is that people are getting hot under the collar about the taxation situation. The result of this imminent review could be extraordinarily painful. 

[Ben Zioner]

1 hour ago, theblether said:

I did think that the failure to grandfather the O-X visa insurance requirement was brutal - again, from memory, 80,000 people held that type of visa and they got a months notice to obtain insurance. 

Don't know where you've gotten this? O-X is a notorious failure and they issued only a handful of them. Definitely not 80,000. And ironically it failed because of the Health insurance, which was one of the initial requirements in addition to the bank deposit of 3M Baht.

[theblether]

1 hour ago, Ben Zioner said:

Don't know where you've gotten this? O-X is a notorious failure and they issued only a handful of them. Definitely not 80,000. And ironically it failed because of the Health insurance, which was one of the initial requirements in addition to the bank deposit of 3M Baht.

 

You are correct. O-X failed partly due to the insurance requirement. Remind me of the retirement visa category apply from overseas, was that O-A?