Thailand to tax residents’ foreign income irrespective of remittance

[Dogmatix]

On 7/7/2024 at 11:01 AM, TroubleandGrumpy said:

An update to those who are genuinely interested in knowing what is happening - especially if DTAs are required to be used - which it looks like they will be.  It seems many people are thinking like in the West - the rules are this, so that happens - it does not work like that here. I strongly suggest reading @Dogmatix last post - this is a clusterphar.......

 

There is no online TRD process or document that allows an Expat to easily lodge a tax return using their country's DTA to exempt anything already taxed, or to claim any exemption or allowances included in their DTA with Thailand.  I have had it confirmed by 2 tax accountant organisations that if I want to lodge a tax return using any part of a DTA for exclusions or allowances or just plain exemptions, I will need to provide detailed techncial and legal information that will be almost impossible for a layman to do in Thailand - they said I will need to use their services and I believed them.  They both currently use DTAs in the tax returns that they do for overseas companies, and they have absolutely convinced me it will not be an easy thing to do for an 'ordinary' Expat.

 

I gave them the details of the financial situation for myself and my Thai wife, and they advised me that their probable costs to do a tax return using the Australian DTA would be - 70-80K and 80-90K.  I have that in writing if anyone wants to PM for a copy. 

 

It will NOT be a simple matter if Expats are forced to lodge a tax return by TRD/Thai Govt, if they need to use the DTA to either exempt or reduce their taxation liability to Thailand.  IMO TRD will not be creating an online DTA tax lodgment process/document according to both the tax experts. IMO as soon as TRD realised how hard it would be, given that there are 61 separate DTAs and all of them are different in some way, they threw up their hands and shut their mouths.  The tax experts showed me what I did not know - TRD are caught in a very hard place - they are being pushed by the Thai Govt to start making Thais and Expats pay more income taxes. Their new Boss (Ms.Kulaya Tantitemit) is being very compliant to the new Govt,  and like all Thai bosses she has the 'Picard Syndrome' and thinks if she says 'make it so' - it will just happen.

 

Absolutely. DTA's have hardly been used to get tax credits for personal income tax because there was no need to use them.  You could just remit income the following tax year or just not bother to declare it as there was no enforcement due to the fact that there was such a big loophole and the RD didn't yet have access to CRS reports.   I have also heard that companies needing to claim tax credits, which has also been fairly rare had to use the services tax accountants or tax lawyers to claim, as it is complicated and there is nowhere in the corporate tax return forms to claim tax credits.

 

For those waiting for a space in the PND 90/91 tax return forms, examine the forms closely and note that every item refers to a clause in the Revenue Code.  Now have a look through the Revenue Code to see how it deals with the DTAs and in what clauses? 

 

Answer: unlike other statutory Thai laws that have been amended to reflect the existence of international treaties, the Revenue Code has never been amended to reflect the existence of DTAs in the 50 odd years these have been in force. 

 

Now ask yourself how the RD would add DTA sections to the tax forms when there is no section of the Revenue Code they can refer to in support of this?

 

Answer: it is impossible. 

[redwood1]

12 minutes ago, gamb00ler said:

Yes... that's how the self reporting method works.  If you like to gamble for big stakes go for it.  The resulting variance (AKA luck) would look something like:

small win

small win

small win

small win

HUGE LOSS

 

Gambling is illegal in Thailand.....

[Dogmatix]

On 7/7/2024 at 11:34 AM, NoDisplayName said:

 

An audit by the TRD should be quite the experience.  There is very little "official" an expat could provide to show home country tax returns........at least for the US.

 

I've filed online via an independent IRS recognized free filing service for the past decade with nothing official to show for it.  No physical paper filing, unless I print off a provisional copy myself, nothing from the IRS, only a message from the online service that my return was accepted.

 

As to financial documentation, all the banks and brokerages and credit unions have gone paperless.  The audit victim could go online.....if they still maintain accounts with the same financial entities....and download past statements....if they are maintained online........and print them off themselves.

 

Almost nothing will be official, nothing will be sealed or stamped, and many will be in languages other than English.  Good lucky.

 

Quite right.  Western tax authorities are paperless and unapproachable.  You will not get the pieces of signed and stamped bumf Thai authorities expect on the basis of what is available here. 

 

I have undergone a corporate tax audit for a small family company.  Not fun. A half day of grilling in Thai at the tax office, following by a second half day with documents they requested which luckily I was able to produce retroactively.  They were trying to argue that VAT should have been paid on exports of services which is not correct.  So I had to produce the contracts which luckily they accepted in English but didn't want to lose face by admitting they couldn't read them.  So they tried to go after us for not paying stamp duties on the agreements instead to save face.  I told them the agreements were made in Hong Kong and no subject to stamp duty.  So they got us for a mistake made by our accountant and find us 36,000 including penalties and interest, instead of the 200K they had targeted.  

 

You have to understand that tax inspectors are under a lot of pressure to raise additional tax.  Once they have opened an investigation, they need to get something to cover their costs and not end up with egg over their faces. Expats who can't read or speak Thai, and have to rely on financially illiterate Thai partners and friends,  and can't produce certified documents to support their cases will absolutely be low hanging fruit. 

[Mike Lister]

9 minutes ago, Dogmatix said:

 

Absolutely. DTA's have hardly been used to get tax credits for personal income tax because there was no need to use them.  You could just remit income the following tax year or just not bother to declare it as there was no enforcement due to the fact that there was such a big loophole and the RD didn't yet have access to CRS reports.   I have also heard that companies needing to claim tax credits, which has also been fairly rare had to use the services tax accountants or tax lawyers to claim, as it is complicated and there is nowhere in the corporate tax return forms to claim tax credits.

 

For those waiting for a space in the PND 90/91 tax return forms, examine the forms closely and note that every item refers to a clause in the Revenue Code.  Now have a look through the Revenue Code to see how it deals with the DTAs and in what clauses? 

 

Answer: unlike other statutory Thai laws that have been amended to reflect the existence of international treaties, the Revenue Code has never been amended to reflect the existence of DTAs in the 50 odd years these have been in force. 

 

Now ask yourself how the RD would add DTA sections to the tax forms when there is no section of the Revenue Code they can refer to in support of this?

 

Answer: it is impossible. 

What you've written makes sense but only in terms of past history, I don't see any argument that says things wont change.  "DTA's have hardly been used to get tax credits for personal income tax because there was no need to use them".  Now there is a need to use them, I've no reason to believe that something wont change as a result. This is WIP, stay tuned, it's early days yet.

[Dogmatix]

On 7/7/2024 at 1:07 PM, JimGant said:

I don't believe it. My US DTA gives the US exclusive taxation rights on my Air Force pension and Social Security. Thus, these figures never need to be shown on a Thai tax return, as there's no taxable income value to them (and where would you put them anyway?). Now, per DTA, Thailand has primary taxation rights on my IRA. So, I report this income, in full, on a line on the Thai tax return. Thailand gets to keep all the taxation, which is all they care about. That the DTA allows a tax credit against my US taxes -- is a no never mind for Thailand TRD -- as they're just happy to collect the full bundle -- and also that they need not report anything to the US IRS (my credit reporting on the US tax return is purely self-assessment, with no official Thai tax return data needed). Thus, this taxation proceeds as if there were no DTA, at least in the mechanics of preparing the return.

 

So why would you need to pay an agent 90k to file a tax return that uses DTA language to assess which income is reportable on a Thai tax return -- and which isn't? You can figure this all out yourself, assuming average intelligence, as DTA language is not that hard to decipher.  Just keep a legible record of how you arrived at these figures, in case you're called in for an audit. Which, in my example above, would be 100% kosher. And probably would be for most other DTA situations.

 

Sounds like the tax preparation vultures are beginning to successfully scare the low hanging fruit. Beware.

 

 

In this example you discuss your Us government pension which is clearly taxable only in the US and your IRA which, according to your post has no tax deducted at source and the US is not claiming a right to tax it.  So lucky Thailand can tax it all and no US tax to claim a tax credit for.  

 

Most Europeans will have tax deducted at source and will need to claim a tax credit but, in many cases, won't have filed home country tax returns in the home country by the time they have file thai tax returns. 

 

Also take the case of rental income.  The UK for example makes clear that it exercises its right to tax UK rental income. . Because all its DTAs say it may tax rental income, so it does.  But Thailand may also tax overseas rental income and has said it will exercise this right. Rental income is taxed on completely different bases in Thailand and the UK.  Moreover, the RD requires a half yearly PND94 tax return and tax payment in addition to the year end PND90.

 

It will be interesting to see the reaction of the UK HMRC if someone writes to them and informs them from now on they will not be filing tax returns or paying tax on their UK rental income because they will only be paying tax on it to Thailand.  You probably wouldn't get a reply at all but demands for a tax return and fines for late submission. The UK expects overseas tax authorities to enter into a gentleman's agreement not to exercise their rights to be primary tax authority for UK sourced income on a reciprocal basis.  But the RD doesn't understand this and is under pressure to exercise its right to collect as much tax as it can to pay for fiscal incontinence planned by this government. European tax authorities are happy to enter into these gentlemen's agreements as it saves them and taxpayers a lot of trouble and in most cases doesn't make much difference to their tax takes.  In Thailand's case, even if they understand that this is the way that DTAs are applied by grown up countries, they will not see the benefit to them because income earned by overseas resident individuals in Thailand is a fraction of income earned overseas by Thailand tax residents. For a start very few Thais have a pension at all. 

[redwood1]

 

Has anyone considered the massive loss of money flowing into Thailand by scaring foreigners away from making large purchases like Condos,Houses, Cars, Businesses etc ?......

 

The numbers are shocking....And in no possible way could any taxes paid by foreigners, even begin to make up for the loss of this money coming into Thailand....This is just about farangs because  Thais for the most part dont pay taxes...

 

OK....Lets take just condos for a example....

 

And for simplicity, lets say all condos would have been bought for  5 million Baht.But were not bought because of the tax mess...

 

One condo not bought 5,000,000 Baht loss to Thailand...

10 condos                      50,000,000 Baht loss

100 condos                500,000,000 Baht loss

1000 condos           5,000,000,000 Baht loss

10,000 condos      50,000,000,000 Baht loss

50,000 condos   250,000,000,000 Baht loss

 

No way they would ever be able to recover this kind of money through taxes....When you can bet your last dollar, every single farang would be doing their best to pay as close to zero taxes as possible...

 

 

[ukrules]

11 minutes ago, redwood1 said:

Has anyone considered the massive loss of money flowing into Thailand by scaring foreigners away from making large purchases like Condos,Houses, Cars, Businesses etc ?......

 

Of course they have, then they all agreed that Thailand is the number one place on earth and nothing they do will stop people from coming 🤣

Reality is going to hit hard over the next couple of years depending on how they implement things. It's not looking good so far.

[Mike Lister]

1 hour ago, Dogmatix said:

 

In this example you discuss your Us government pension which is clearly taxable only in the US and your IRA which, according to your post has no tax deducted at source and the US is not claiming a right to tax it.  So lucky Thailand can tax it all and no US tax to claim a tax credit for.  

 

Most Europeans will have tax deducted at source and will need to claim a tax credit but, in many cases, won't have filed home country tax returns in the home country by the time they have file thai tax returns. 

 

Also take the case of rental income.  The UK for example makes clear that it exercises its right to tax UK rental income. . Because all its DTAs say it may tax rental income, so it does.  But Thailand may also tax overseas rental income and has said it will exercise this right. Rental income is taxed on completely different bases in Thailand and the UK.  Moreover, the RD requires a half yearly PND94 tax return and tax payment in addition to the year end PND90.

 

It will be interesting to see the reaction of the UK HMRC if someone writes to them and informs them from now on they will not be filing tax returns or paying tax on their UK rental income because they will only be paying tax on it to Thailand.  You probably wouldn't get a reply at all but demands for a tax return and fines for late submission. The UK expects overseas tax authorities to enter into a gentleman's agreement not to exercise their rights to be primary tax authority for UK sourced income on a reciprocal basis.  But the RD doesn't understand this and is under pressure to exercise its right to collect as much tax as it can to pay for fiscal incontinence planned by this government. European tax authorities are happy to enter into these gentlemen's agreements as it saves them and taxpayers a lot of trouble and in most cases doesn't make much difference to their tax takes.  In Thailand's case, even if they understand that this is the way that DTAs are applied by grown up countries, they will not see the benefit to them because income earned by overseas resident individuals in Thailand is a fraction of income earned overseas by Thailand tax residents. For a start very few Thais have a pension at all. 

The twice yearly filing for overseas rental income is only applicable if the income is remitted in the first half of the year. A simple work around is wait until after June before remitting rental income.

 

I receive rental income from overseas and file UK taxes each year. I know what my tax position will be in each country I have income, well in advance of the filing date and I'll be very surprised it others don't know the same. If I file my Thai tax return in mid March, I may have to guess at the numbers for the last two weeks of the UK tax year but I think I can do that with some precision. As it happens, my rental income is die 10th of the month which means by 10th March, I have my complete UK figures.

 

To add: I have huge respect for poster Dogmatix's knowledge and research abilities on the subject of Thai tax and think his contribution to the topic has been truly outstanding. It's worth noting however that much of his interaction with the TRD on tax related matters, appears to pertain to business taxes or taxes relating to business. I'm not convinced if the TRD response to the general public will be the same hence I'm uncertain how much of that experience carries across.  

[tomacht8]

2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Snip

 

I receive rental income from overseas and file UK taxes each year. I know what my tax position will be in each country I have income, well in advance of the filing date and I'll be very surprised it others don't know the same. If I file my Thai tax return in mid March, I may have to guess at the numbers for the last two weeks of the UK tax year but I think I can do that with some precision. As it happens, my rental income is die 10th of the month which means by 10th March, I have my complete UK figures.

....

I also have rental income from several apartment buildings. But I could only roughly estimate the profit in advance. First I have to wait for the annual bills from my suppliers: electricity, gas, water. They come quite differently for all rental properties (February-April). When I have all the billing numbers together, the data goes to my heating cost accounting service. All apartments have consumption meters on the radiators so that consumption can be allocated for each apartment (heating and hot water). It will take until July until I receive the statements. Then I will be able to prepare my profit and loss statement for each apartment building. Then my statements go to my tax advisor, who also makes some profit adjustments. He then sends the whole thing to my tax office in October-November. Depending on the workload and the document verification requirement, I will receive my official tax assessment in February of the following year.

 

It is therefore impossible for me to report my 2024 income to the Thai tax authorities by the end of March 2025. The only thing I would report to the Thai tax office (if I contact them  at all) would be the transfers of my savings (e.g. earned and taxed in 2017) to Thailand in 2024.

[Mike Lister]

32 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

I also have rental income from several apartment buildings. But I could only roughly estimate the profit in advance. First I have to wait for the annual bills from my suppliers: electricity, gas, water. They come quite differently for all rental properties (February-April). When I have all the billing numbers together, the data goes to my heating cost accounting service. All apartments have consumption meters on the radiators so that consumption can be allocated for each apartment (heating and hot water). It will take until July until I receive the statements. Then I will be able to prepare my profit and loss statement for each apartment building. Then my statements go to my tax advisor, who also makes some profit adjustments. He then sends the whole thing to my tax office in October-November. Depending on the workload and the document verification requirement, I will receive my official tax assessment in February of the following year.

 

It is therefore impossible for me to report my 2024 income to the Thai tax authorities by the end of March 2025. The only thing I would report to the Thai tax office (if I contact them  at all) would be the transfers of my savings (e.g. earned and taxed in 2017) to Thailand in 2024.

I suspect you are on a totally different scale of things than the retiree with a single property they rent out. Yes of course there will be people such as yourself who can't easily and quickly match tax years but I doubt very much that you are representative of the average foreigner in Thailand.

[MartinBangkok]

Hi guys, I have been following this subject on Asean Now closely, ever since the first crazy announcement by the Srettha-government in September 23.

 

All I can say is this, my choice of saving 1 million Baht yearly not to stay in Thailand more than 180 days per year has been surprisingly positive. I have aleady spent 4 months in two other SEA-nations.

 

It's great and truly an eye-opener in many, many, ways.

 

It is difficult to fathom the way Foreigners are treated in Thailand (by the Srettha Government)

 

Cheers

[Metapod]

30 minutes ago, MartinBangkok said:

Hi guys, I have been following this subject on Asean Now closely, ever since the first crazy announcement by the Srettha-government in September 23.

 

All I can say is this, my choice of saving 1 million Baht yearly not to stay in Thailand more than 180 days per year has been surprisingly positive. I have aleady spent 4 months in two other SEA-nations.

 

It's great and truly an eye-opener in many, many, ways.

 

It is difficult to fathom the way Foreigners are treated in Thailand (by the Srettha Government)

 

Cheers

 

I'll be doing the same. It's the simplest solution for now.

[Fat Bob]

Imagine those elite visa holders contemplating their situation 😂. They really got screwed big time.

[Celsius]

2 hours ago, MartinBangkok said:

Hi guys, I have been following this subject on Asean Now closely, ever since the first crazy announcement by the Srettha-government in September 23.

 

All I can say is this, my choice of saving 1 million Baht yearly not to stay in Thailand more than 180 days per year has been surprisingly positive. I have aleady spent 4 months in two other SEA-nations.

 

It's great and truly an eye-opener in many, many, ways.

 

It is difficult to fathom the way Foreigners are treated in Thailand (by the Srettha Government)

 

Cheers

 

It is always the easiest thing to just leave. But just like when in a failed relationship, people are scared to do it.

[Klonko]

3 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

I suspect you are on a totally different scale of things than the retiree with a single property they rent out. Yes of course there will be people such as yourself who can't easily and quickly match tax years but I doubt very much that you are representative of the average foreigner in Thailand.

In many other countries, even renting out only one apartment you will have to file taxes in Thailand before you are finally tax assessed and may have to wait one year or more before you can reclaim tax credits after having paid full Thai taxes. Of course, you can use your estimated tax credit for filing taxes in Thailand and hope that you do no have to provide documentation to TRD before your foreign taxes are finally assessed. I would rather wait with remittances until I can prove tax credits.

[ukrules]

1 hour ago, Fat Bob said:

Imagine those elite visa holders contemplating their situation 😂. They really got screwed big time.

 

No we didn't, it's just a visa, we're in the same boat as everyone else, except we're not broke.

[Metapod]

21 minutes ago, ukrules said:

 

No we didn't, it's just a visa, we're in the same boat as everyone else, except we're not broke.

 

Im just holding out hope they tax exempt is like they did for LTV. 

[ukrules]

37 minutes ago, Metapod said:

 

Im just holding out hope they tax exempt is like they did for LTV. 

 

Lol, that's not happening.

[Fat Bob]

6 minutes ago, ukrules said:

 

Lol, that's not happening.

This actually worries me a bit. As I suspect with the tax scares privilege visa sales should have gone down to nil and the program may be axed at some point. I am one of those people who feels like I got screwed. The point of the visa was to be able to live without dealing with anything. Now if I should be conservative and stay for only half a year to see how things play out, that renders the elite visa pointless, for the way I intended to use it.

[tomacht8]

8 hours ago, MartinBangkok said:

Hi guys, I have been following this subject on Asean Now closely, ever since the first crazy announcement by the Srettha-government in September 23.

 

All I can say is this, my choice of saving 1 million Baht yearly not to stay in Thailand more than 180 days per year has been surprisingly positive. I have aleady spent 4 months in two other SEA-nations.

 

It's great and truly an eye-opener in many, many, ways.

 

It is difficult to fathom the way Foreigners are treated in Thailand (by the Srettha Government)

 

Cheers

True. This new tax orders are stupid.

I send 50 Million Baht in 2025 and stay under 180 days = no tax resident = no pay any tax.

Then I stay in 2026 all year and be a tax resident, transfer no money from abroad =  no income = not have to pay any taxes.  (In Thailand, the taxes on the saving interest are automatically withheld by the commercial banks and paid directly to the tax office). Sorry, those are idiotic tax laws.

 

[tomacht8]

6 hours ago, Klonko said:

In many other countries, even renting out only one apartment you will have to file taxes in Thailand before you are finally tax assessed and may have to wait one year or more before you can reclaim tax credits after having paid full Thai taxes. Of course, you can use your estimated tax credit for filing taxes in Thailand and hope that you do no have to provide documentation to TRD before your foreign taxes are finally assessed. I would rather wait with remittances until I can prove tax credits.

That will be the consequence. I stop transfer money to my Bank account in Thailand. My solution is now to send the money to my daughters account. She has Thai and Foreign Passport. She study currently in Europe and is less then 180 days in Thailand. So she is not a Thai Tax resident. My daughter give me then her Thai ATM card and Pin, that then I can take out the money I need to support my Thai family in Thailand. LOL. That I am forced to go this way, is stupid. But TiT.

[Mike Lister]

1 hour ago, tomacht8 said:

True. This new tax orders are stupid.

I send 50 Million Baht in 2025 and stay under 180 days = no tax resident = no pay any tax.

Then I stay in 2026 all year and be a tax resident, transfer no money from abroad =  no income = not have to pay any taxes.  (In Thailand, the taxes on the saving interest are automatically withheld by the commercial banks and paid directly to the tax office). Sorry, those are idiotic tax laws.

 

I don't think that is an idiotic law. The average income here is very low, which is why only 6% of people pay income tax. It's abundantly clear that if the matter is left up to the people. nobody would voluntarily pay tax. The country gets by at present on VAT, Corporate tax and some targeted taxes, with holding 15% tax on interest is a logical move, making the people reclaim it if they don't owe tax. 

[Sir Dude]

Well, nothing has been set in stone just yet and it's all pretty ambiguous with lots of wild speculation, so I'll throw in my 2 pence worth. Personally, I just can't see them trying to tax pensioners on their pensions, as it would be financial suicide (maybe even diplomatic too with the DTAs) in many ways and put off almost everyone from coming here to retire (unless that's what they secretly want). People that live and work here might get hit that are tax residents, but again, not easy to police and enforce (enforcement is a moot point on many a thing here)... however, if you want to bring in a large amount of money, then just spend one year as a non-tax resident (less than 180 days), and just travel or visit relatives for the rest of the year, bring in what you want to without being taxed, then become a tax resident again the next year... ta-da, carry on as normal without paying.

[Mike Lister]

Given that so much is still unclear, I think it helps to have a, "glass have full" attitude, rather than assume the worst in every instance. We have a couple of long term posters on tax whose attitude is that the glass is completely empty plus there's no bottom in the glass anyway! 

[Enzian]

12 hours ago, MartinBangkok said:

 

All I can say is this, my choice of saving 1 million Baht yearly not to stay in Thailand more than 180 days per year has been surprisingly positive. I have aleady spent 4 months in two other SEA-nations.

I've already spent 93 days out of country, in Spain and California, and atm I'm in Penang Malaysia checking it out. It's also the "low" rain season but the weather is not really worse. Except for imported alcohol (higher that Thailand) things are relatively cheap compared to Bangkok, certainly no worse. The multi-ethnic multi-cultural thing is kind of nice, and all the people have been friendly and respectful so far. I saw an article that even Mlaysia is becoming less foreigner-friendly is some way, but there is a lot of "research" left to do, and it's all good.

[redwood1]

41 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Given that so much is still unclear, I think it helps to have a, "glass have full" attitude, rather than assume the worst in every instance. We have a couple of long term posters on tax whose attitude is that the glass is completely empty plus there's no bottom in the glass anyway! 

 

And some of us think the glass should just be smashed and swept up and thrown in the bin.....lol

[Celsius]

4 hours ago, tomacht8 said:

That will be the consequence. I stop transfer money to my Bank account in Thailand. My solution is now to send the money to my daughters account. She has Thai and Foreign Passport. She study currently in Europe and is less then 180 days in Thailand. So she is not a Thai Tax resident. My daughter give me then her Thai ATM card and Pin, that then I can take out the money I need to support my Thai family in Thailand. LOL. That I am forced to go this way, is stupid. But TiT.

 

Are you ready to be lectured about your tax dodging skillz?

[itsari]

9 minutes ago, Celsius said:

 

Are you ready to be lectured about your tax dodging skillz?

Depends if his actions are considered avoidence or evasion of tax.

Never heard of tax dodging

[Danderman123]

19 hours ago, gamb00ler said:

Yes... that's how the self reporting method works.  If you like to gamble for big stakes go for it.  The resulting variance (AKA luck) would look something like:

small win

small win

small win

small win

HUGE LOSS

Yes.

 

I remitted one million baht to Thailand this year. It's my Social Security pension for the last decade or so.

 

So I don't have to report it.

[Mike Lister]

34 minutes ago, Celsius said:

 

Are you ready to be lectured about your tax dodging skillz?

There are days like today and posts like yours, that make me pause and wonder if any of this is worth the aggravation and effort.