Make take on the new tax laws and panic

[connda]

1 hour ago, scorecard said:

 

I've had a personal Thai Tax number for over 30 years:

- Needed when I was a full expat for a multi national, big salary, big tax, but most years had a to pay a bit extra to finalize the year.

- Needed when I was lecturing at a Thai uni, no tax deducted, but a statement of annual earnings issued. Acct. prepared annual tax return, most years had to pay several hundred Baht to clear that year. Since discovered I very probably didn't need to submit Thai tax return for these years.

 

Now, only income is old age pension transferred automatically from abroad. 

 

I got Thai PR 27 years ago, I life with my Thai family full time (365 days every year) in Thailand.

 

But so far no clear answers whether old age pension from abroad is taxable in Thailand. It's not subject to personal tax in the country of origin. 

 

After the basic deductions seems I will might need to pay Thai tax about 800Baht per year.

 

 

Not the end of the world. 

If I was extended permanent residency status or had a path to citizenship like foreign gals married to Thai men - then I'd have no problems paying taxes just like a Thai national.  

But being just a "guest" on a one-year extension of stay to "visit" my Thai wife? For the last decade and a half?  Nah - I'm going to balk at any attempts to pry my US income out of my US funds and put it into the Thai tax coffers.  They get 7% VAT and take 15% of the interest on my Thai bank account.  Past that they are being greedy.  But grant me PR and Citizenship just like is granted to foreign women married to Thai men - I'm happy to pay.

[NoDisplayName]

3 hours ago, Thaindrew said:

China does tax worldwide income for tax residents, I lived there for 20 years and left when they changed to a global tax system

 

You are correct!!!!  I found false information on a couple legal websites.  (yes, i googled it)

 

But as for foreigners, they only came under that provision after spending 5 uninterrupted years working in China, changed to six years in 2019 using the 183-day rule. 

*leaving China for 30 days RESETS the 6-year clock*

 

My time working there, between 2009-2022, this never came up.  Possibly because I took extended breaks outside the country.  The topic never came up when visiting tax office for official tax receipts needed for SWIFT.

 

Interestingly, this is the first year that the new Chinese law has affect on expats.  With Cambodia moving to global income taxation this year, it appears nowhere is safe.

Edited June 10 by NoDisplayName

[Guderian]

20 hours ago, wmlc said:

When I saw the latest announcement how they will implement a world tax system,

 

It's not a worldwide tax system, it's a worldwide (well, almost) individual income and earnings reporting system, supported by the OECD and called CRS (Comprehensive Reporting System). Without this, Thailand would never have the ability to find out about your offshore financial affairs, but now all they have to do is pay the CRS filing fee of around $70 and the information held by every bank and financial firm in countries that have joined CRS - and that's most of them - will be available.

 

I hear what you're saying about them not having the resources and I agree. Many years ago, I had to go and see the tax people in the Jomtien office. There were about 10 of them in a large office, and as it was during the summer holiday several of them had brought their kids to work. No security checks or locked doors or armed guards, it was all quite a nice family affair. Given that the office seemed pretty busy back then, I don't see how it could possibly do its normal work, as well as checking on the affairs of the tens of thousands of expats that would come under its purview.

 

And as for the Thais being the hub of confusion in announcements and plans, it appears that way to us, but I often wonder how it looks to the politicians at the top? These guys are not stupid, and I suspect a lot of what we see as governmental chaos is, at least partly, down to poor and confused reporting by the media. The reason they never bothered with the 180-day tax resident status before is surely just because they knew people would simply say the money they're bringing to Thailand is savings or income from previous years, and so under the 'old' rules was not taxable here. The first announcement they made months ago changed all that.

 

Just remember the story about the opening of Suvarnabhumi airport. Back in 2006, it had already been completed for quite a while and was just standing idle. One day, it must have caught the PM's attention (Thaksin, as it happens), and he asked his aides why it wasn't open yet? They replied that nobody had told them when to open it, so Don Muang was still operating normally as Bangkok's main airport. Thaksin got them moving, anyway, and not long after it was finally open for business. The message I take from this is that what can appear as disorganised chaos to us actually happens for completely different reasons, it's not that the Thais lack the capability, it's that they need strong leadership to tell then what to do.

[KhunHeineken]

3 hours ago, Presnock said:

LTR also has no 90-day reporting to immigration so that procedure is out as well as current Tax ID law.

Spend more than 180 days inside Thailand in a calendar year and you will be deemed a resident of Thailand for tax purposes. 

 

One could even rack up 180 days on tourist visas doing visa runs. 

 

The type of visa/s used to stay the 180 days is irrelevant. 

[Presnock]

5 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Spend more than 180 days inside Thailand in a calendar year and you will be deemed a resident of Thailand for tax purposes. 

 

One could even rack up 180 days on tourist visas doing visa runs. 

 

The type of visa/s used to stay the 180 days is irrelevant. 

 

5 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Spend more than 180 days inside Thailand in a calendar year and you will be deemed a resident of Thailand for tax purposes. 

 

One could even rack up 180 days on tourist visas doing visa runs. 

 

The type of visa/s used to stay the 180 days is irrelevant. 

The tax on remittance never entered my mind, I have a US Govt pension income only and the DTA unless they wipe out those treaties too I am okay. would have to reconsider options!

[freedomnow]

Probably the 7th next Prime Minister in the next 2 years through the revolving doors will repeal the rule...welcome to the circus. 

 

They should all wear red noses in the govt. in LoS.

[KhunHeineken]

3 hours ago, worrab said:

What happens then if you receive a large inheritance which is not taxable?? Therefore no need to get a TIN or to even contact the TRD. No document to produce to Immigration for extension of stay or even departing the country.  

More information needed. 

 

Is the inheritance inside or outside Thailand?  If outside Thailand, will you be remitting the money to Thailand? 

 

Are you a tax resident of Thailand?

 

Etc etc. 

 

Like I have said, pay the TRD "something" which may or may not be the correct amount of tax, or even pay them 300 baht, no receipt, like the Certificate of Residence, but pay nothing, and you may not get a document from them for your next extension.  

 

Many are looking at the exact letter of the law for this policy.   Maybe it's not going to work that way.  Maybe all they want from most retired expats is just a cash payment for a document, like the Certificate of Residence. 

 

We will have to wait and see how this play out.  Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst. 

[foreverlomsak]

17 hours ago, wmlc said:

Further, this new law was originally designed to keep the Thais who work abroad honest. I still believe that to be true today and they won't be targeting foreigners. 

As many have said this is not a new law but an amendment to an existing clarification of a section of the law, whereby 1 year old income was classed as "savings" and not income thereby not being taxed on arrival.

This is aimed more at wealthy Thai's that live in Thailand and bring large untaxed sums into Thailand under the old "savings" clarification.

IMHO unlike others I believe we were not the original "benefactors" of this change but are collateral effects, that could provide a sum of money to the Thai Government.  Having been required to submit tax returns in the past, I didn't find it too difficult, and as the system is based on "honest" provision of income, exclusions and deductible values, there was no investigation into the data provided, so was not too onerous. The proof of income was not provided by the employer but by me writing a letter saying I received "X",, the data on the form was input into the computer and out came a printed receipt, which in my case (all 3 times) was ZERO to pay, time spent in the RD office was about 20 minutes each occasion.

The difficulties would occur if they decided to audit you in the future. Being a UK citizen the mismatch in Tax Years would be a potential problem, (Thai being 1 Jan to 1 Dec and UK being 6 Apr to 5 Apr), which means that no UK tax data could be used in said audit.

[worrab]

10 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Is the inheritance inside or outside Thailand?  If outside Thailand, will you be remitting the money to Thailand? 

 

Are you a tax resident of Thailand?

The inheritance has been coming into Thailand with covering documentation which makes it exempt from taxes.

And yes, I am a tax resident here. 
The whole system, as usual for Thailand, has just been thrown together with no thought processes behind it. I am not expecting anything to come of this for at least 2 years, if then. Depends if we get another change of government as well.

Interesting days ahead which I will not worry unnecessarily about until there is something in concrete. 

Edited June 10 by worrab
Wording

[KhunHeineken]

16 minutes ago, Presnock said:

 

The tax on remittance never entered my mind, I have a US Govt pension income only and the DTA unless they wipe out those treaties too I am okay. would have to reconsider options!

Obviously, they couldn't just force this tax only on retirement visa holders, otherwise most on a retirement visa would move to a different visa, or a combination of visas. 

 

It's all about the amount of days spent inside Thailand during a calendar year.  Whatever visa/s were used for the stay/s is irrelevant. 

 

Basically, one type of visa does not offer any tax free concessions over another type of visa. 

Edited June 10 by KhunHeineken

[freedomnow]

4 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Obviously, they couldn't just force this tax only on retirement visa holders, otherwise most on a retirement visa would move to a different visa, or a combination of visas. 

 

It's all about the amount of days spent inside Thailand during a calendar year.  Whatever visa/s were used for the stay/s is irrelevant. 

 

Basically, one type of visa does not offer any tax free concessions over another type of visa. 

Yes, if enforced it's going to impact the retiree visa applications 4sure and meanwhile they are trying to increase numbers with new and easier visas coming (in theory).

[KhunHeineken]

4 minutes ago, worrab said:

The inheritance has been coming into Thailand with covering documentation which makes it exempt from taxes.

Good luck explaining and proving this, especially as the inheritance earns interest.  It will be a bureaucratic nightmare. 

 

Like I said, many times, maybe this whole system will not be implemented to the letter of the law.  It may just mean paying "something" to the TRD for a document for your extension.  It could be as simple as 300 baht like we pay for the Certificate of Residence. 

 

For high net worth individuals, they can apply the letter of the law because there's millions to billions of baht involved. 

 

We will have to wait and see. 

[NoDisplayName]

15 minutes ago, foreverlomsak said:

As many have said this is not a new law but an amendment to an existing clarification of a section of the law, whereby 1 year old income was classed as "savings" and not income thereby not being taxed on arrival.

This is aimed more at wealthy Thai's that live in Thailand and bring large untaxed sums into Thailand under the old "savings" clarification.

IMHO unlike others I believe we were not the original "benefactors" of this change but are collateral effects, that could provide a sum of money to the Thai Government.  Having been required to submit tax returns in the past, I didn't find it too difficult, and as the system is based on "honest" provision of income, exclusions and deductible values, there was no investigation into the data provided, so was not too onerous. The proof of income was not provided by the employer but by me writing a letter saying I received "X",, the data on the form was input into the computer and out came a printed receipt, which in my case (all 3 times) was ZERO to pay, time spent in the RD office was about 20 minutes each occasion.

The difficulties would occur if they decided to audit you in the future. Being a UK citizen the mismatch in Tax Years would be a potential problem, (Thai being 1 Jan to 1 Dec and UK being 6 Apr to 5 Apr), which means that no UK tax data could be used in said audit.

 

That was last year's change to the existing law, removing the "1-year seasoning" provision from the remitted income rules.

 

This new proposed legislation will tax worldwide income, remitted or not, superseding the "seasoning" clause.

[foreverlomsak]

2 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

For high net worth individuals, they can apply the letter of the law because there's millions to billions of baht involved.

how would they know who is high net worth

[NorthernRyland]

21 hours ago, wmlc said:

Because they didn't enforce it before, so they likely won't enforce it now.

Agreed however the new government may make an attempt, will they be able to pull it off? That remains to be seen. Any new governments in the future may try to tap this unexploited resource as well. It's always a looming threat but given there's no history here I agree now is not the time to panic.

[worrab]

1 minute ago, KhunHeineken said:

Good luck explaining and proving this, especially as the inheritance earns interest.  It will be a bureaucratic nightmare. 

Had no problems with this. I get covering headed emails from the solicitors in UK which I print off and they get sent to head office of BB.

Tax is automatically deducted on interest by the bank. Only kicks the system off when I reclaim the tax. Then TIN etc will be needed and an accountant to go through the minefield!

[NorthernRyland]

21 hours ago, Everyman said:

Thailand will host the Tour de France

are they really that unaware of what driving is like here? 1 day in and there would be a serious injury or death. This is on par with an obese person thinking they could win a marathon.

[Presnock]

6 minutes ago, freedomnow said:

Yes, if enforced it's going to impact the retiree visa applications 4sure and meanwhile they are trying to increase numbers with new and easier visas coming (in theory).

Until we see if this will come to be in the foreseeable future, we just wait...right now my LTR does in fact stop any tax if the DTA was not there next year on remitted pension funds into Thailand.

Good luck to all..., who knows what government will even be in place next year?

[Presnock]

30 minutes ago, foreverlomsak said:

As many have said this is not a new law but an amendment to an existing clarification of a section of the law, whereby 1 year old income was classed as "savings" and not income thereby not being taxed on arrival.

This is aimed more at wealthy Thai's that live in Thailand and bring large untaxed sums into Thailand under the old "savings" clarification.

IMHO unlike others I believe we were not the original "benefactors" of this change but are collateral effects, that could provide a sum of money to the Thai Government.  Having been required to submit tax returns in the past, I didn't find it too difficult, and as the system is based on "honest" provision of income, exclusions and deductible values, there was no investigation into the data provided, so was not too onerous. The proof of income was not provided by the employer but by me writing a letter saying I received "X",, the data on the form was input into the computer and out came a printed receipt, which in my case (all 3 times) was ZERO to pay, time spent in the RD office was about 20 minutes each occasion.

The difficulties would occur if they decided to audit you in the future. Being a UK citizen the mismatch in Tax Years would be a potential problem, (Thai being 1 Jan to 1 Dec and UK being 6 Apr to 5 Apr), which means that no UK tax data could be used in said audit.

Well I think the US CRS and OECD decisions were also to catch tax residents who were not paying any taxes on their income as well as the money launderers too.  I sympathize with those low-pensioners that were below their home country tax table and who will be caught by this latest scheme if it comes to fruition.  Good luck

[nickmondo]

21 hours ago, wmlc said:

 

Considering that the 180 day rule has been around for years and just some changes on what income is included were amended this year, I would say everyone  is overreacting about all this tax news. Why? Because of enforcement. Until they announce any enforcement measures, I would not even worry. The more logical statement is "IF" they announce. I don't think there will be a "when". Why? Because they didn't enforce it before, so they likely won't enforce it now. Regarding ways they could enforce it. Currently, they only enforce the filing of personal income tax in Thailand when one needs to renew a work permit. Moving forward, they could use the exit and entry history from immigration and send notices out, but then what? They could impose stricter bank of Thailand regulations where banks would need to notify the revenue dept more often on the money you receive from abroad. Then what? They could ask immigration to request proof you filed personal income tax before they extend your Retirement visa or Thai wife visa. ****For all you ridiculous people, extension of stay based on being retired or married to a Thai....geeze who cares. Most members understand visa and visa extension and it's easier for them to comprehend.*** So, anyways, then what? Immigration won't want to deal with all this. That's for sure. 

 

In my opinion, all this will be too much trouble for the Thai government. They won't be able to organize all this properly. They would have to make an online website for foreigners to register for a tax ID. They would have to have a concrete plan of enforcement with multiple government sectors  involved. All that to force foreigners to file. Yes, that's right. Force them to file, not pay. With most countries, there are DTAs to prevent people from being double taxed. 

 

Guys, they can't even get the weed laws straight. They can't even get the 60 days visa exemption announcement straight. How can we assume they will get the tax laws straight and a system in place that would take years of planning and multiple government sectors to enforce. It will never happen. Just like it never happened before. 

 

When I saw the latest announcement how they will implement a world tax system, I laughed hysterically. I wish Thailand the best of luck, but I don't think they will be able to pull any of this off. Besides, a new government will come along in a few years and change the strategy again on all these things. Enjoy your retirement in Thailand guys and stop moaning about stuff that has not happened yet and most likely won't. 

agree with most of what you say.

however, after being here without a break for a few years now, and listening to one crazy scheme after the other, I need a break.

so while they are sorting out their stuff, I will naff off to Vietnam for a few months, and watch it all unfold from there.

you never know, they might just enforce this tax issue........how, i dont know.......but miricles do happen

dont forget, if they do enforce this........it begins from 1st Jan 24.  So it will be retrospective......or whatever that word is.........

so sitting around, not worrying about it, might not be the best thing to do.

im really looking forward to a change of scenery for a while, and will do this every year i think

who wants to stay in the same country for retirement all the time anyway?

freedom..............

[nickmondo]

19 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

Well said. 

 

Those thinking of purchasing property here should reconsider their position.  You may only get to live in it for 179 days of the year, or, pay a lot of tax and receive absolutely zero back in public services for the money. 

just bought one here, and im very happy to only use it for half a year.

for years i did 6 months Spain, 6 months UK, owned a property in both.

works well.........and my property here cost 5 million baht, so not exactly expensive.

[Everyman]

1 hour ago, Guderian said:

 

It's not a worldwide tax system, it's a worldwide (well, almost) individual income and earnings reporting system, supported by the OECD and called CRS (Comprehensive Reporting System). Without this, Thailand would never have the ability to find out about your offshore financial affairs, but now all they have to do is pay the CRS filing fee of around $70 and the information held by every bank and financial firm in countries that have joined CRS - and that's most of them - will be available.

 

I hear what you're saying about them not having the resources and I agree. Many years ago, I had to go and see the tax people in the Jomtien office. There were about 10 of them in a large office, and as it was during the summer holiday several of them had brought their kids to work. No security checks or locked doors or armed guards, it was all quite a nice family affair. Given that the office seemed pretty busy back then, I don't see how it could possibly do its normal work, as well as checking on the affairs of the tens of thousands of expats that would come under its purview.

 

And as for the Thais being the hub of confusion in announcements and plans, it appears that way to us, but I often wonder how it looks to the politicians at the top? These guys are not stupid, and I suspect a lot of what we see as governmental chaos is, at least partly, down to poor and confused reporting by the media. The reason they never bothered with the 180-day tax resident status before is surely just because they knew people would simply say the money they're bringing to Thailand is savings or income from previous years, and so under the 'old' rules was not taxable here. The first announcement they made months ago changed all that.

 

Just remember the story about the opening of Suvarnabhumi airport. Back in 2006, it had already been completed for quite a while and was just standing idle. One day, it must have caught the PM's attention (Thaksin, as it happens), and he asked his aides why it wasn't open yet? They replied that nobody had told them when to open it, so Don Muang was still operating normally as Bangkok's main airport. Thaksin got them moving, anyway, and not long after it was finally open for business. The message I take from this is that what can appear as disorganised chaos to us actually happens for completely different reasons, it's not that the Thais lack the capability, it's that they need strong leadership to tell then what to do.

 

What credentials do you need access the CRS database? Can I just pay $70 and look at Angela Merkle’s bank accounts?

[Danderman123]

19 hours ago, wmlc said:

I don't agree. I will give you a huge example. The girls that go work in South Korea or Japan or Taiwan. They go three months at a time once or twice per year and earn big money. 

Those ladies pay income tax?

[Toby1947]

20 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

My opinion on it is a foreigner will need to make contact with the TRD between 1st Jan and 31st March for paper returns, and the 8th April for online returns. 

 

You will have to declare your income / remittances.  You will then pay your tax bill, if you have one, and then the TRD will issue a document.  You will need this document for your annual extension.

 

I envisage you will also need this document to leave Thailand if one has been here for more than 180 days in the calendar year.  I have posted airports and boarders may have a "tax desk" similar to the "overstay desk" where you will have to pay before you can leave, but this is for another thread. 

 

You don't produce a document from the TRD, no extension granted.  You don't seek an extension because you are leaving Thailand, you may be directed to the tax desk at the airport because immigration will know you are a resident of Thailand for tax purposes.  

 

You may not pay the right amount of tax, but they will make you pay something, and that's all this is about.  Just another earner for them. 

 

I also expect "agents" will offer to deal with the TRD  as well. 

 

Spot on

[cooked]

Many writing here seem to have completely missed the point. Thailand, along with quite a few other countries,  signed a (globalist) agreement  with the OECD:  

"Thailand signs Multilateral Convention to Implement Tax Treaty Related Measures to Prevent BEPS. On 9 February 2022, Thailand signed the Multilateral Convention to Implement Tax Treaty Related Measures to Prevent BEPS (the MLI)."

The tax number that you will receive if you take the trouble to apply for one (TIN) will be an International Tax Number, "This enactment brought into effect the Automatic Exchange of Information Common Reporting Standard laws." So if you escape paying taxes here, you will eventually finish up paying them elsewhere.

https://www.expattaxthailand.com/tax-identification-number-thailand/

Google Thailand form L.P.10.1

[Guderian]

1 hour ago, Everyman said:

 

What credentials do you need access the CRS database? Can I just pay $70 and look at Angela Merkle’s bank accounts?

 

I've no idea, but as this is an initiative from the champion of Big Government, i.e. the OECD, I suspect it will only be available to governments.

[topt]

5 minutes ago, Guderian said:

 

I've no idea, but as this is an initiative from the champion of Big Government, i.e. the OECD, I suspect it will only be available to governments.

You have gone down in my estimation - do you really think his was a serious question.......

[Guderian]

54 minutes ago, topt said:

You have gone down in my estimation - do you really think his was a serious question.......

 

To be honest with you, I'm getting quite depressed by this whole nonsense. Of course, it's been on the horizon for the best part of a decade, but I think we all forgot about it, or assumed it would never happen, so nobody has made any real plans. When it was restricted to remittances to Thailand I could live with it, but half of my income arises tax-free outside Thailand, and it'll be a cold day in Hell before I pay any tax on that. As the OP said, it might be all noise and bluster and nothing will change, but if that's wrong then it would cost me and many others dearly. My own affairs are hardly on the scale of Richard Branson, but I know one guy who worked for a big oilfield service company all his life and his pension, which is all paid tax-free offshore, is worth over half a million Baht a month. I doubt if he's going to sit idly by while the TRD draws up a bill for 2 million Baht in tax each year. The only sure solution I can see is to make sure that you're never tax-resident anywhere, which wasn't exactly how I imagined spending the last 10 or 15 years of my life. One reason for moving to Thailand back in 2004 was that they didn't give a monkeys about your financial affairs outside the country. Times have changed, it seems, and so maybe it's time to move on for good.

[topt]

25 minutes ago, Guderian said:

The only sure solution I can see is to make sure that you're never tax-resident anywhere, which wasn't exactly how I imagined spending the last 10 or 15 years of my life.

Agree with everything you say.

I am looking at the calculation that, if it comes to pass, whether it is worth the cost of becoming more nomadic or whether in fact that doing so will cost more than the likely tax I would have to pay plus all the inconvenience.

[Thingamabob]

On 6/9/2024 at 3:56 PM, wmlc said:

 

Considering that the 180 day rule has been around for years and just some changes on what income is included were amended this year, I would say everyone  is overreacting about all this tax news. Why? Because of enforcement. Until they announce any enforcement measures, I would not even worry. The more logical statement is "IF" they announce. I don't think there will be a "when". Why? Because they didn't enforce it before, so they likely won't enforce it now. Regarding ways they could enforce it. Currently, they only enforce the filing of personal income tax in Thailand when one needs to renew a work permit. Moving forward, they could use the exit and entry history from immigration and send notices out, but then what? They could impose stricter bank of Thailand regulations where banks would need to notify the revenue dept more often on the money you receive from abroad. Then what? They could ask immigration to request proof you filed personal income tax before they extend your Retirement visa or Thai wife visa. ****For all you ridiculous people, extension of stay based on being retired or married to a Thai....geeze who cares. Most members understand visa and visa extension and it's easier for them to comprehend.*** So, anyways, then what? Immigration won't want to deal with all this. That's for sure. 

 

In my opinion, all this will be too much trouble for the Thai government. They won't be able to organize all this properly. They would have to make an online website for foreigners to register for a tax ID. They would have to have a concrete plan of enforcement with multiple government sectors  involved. All that to force foreigners to file. Yes, that's right. Force them to file, not pay. With most countries, there are DTAs to prevent people from being double taxed. 

 

Guys, they can't even get the weed laws straight. They can't even get the 60 days visa exemption announcement straight. How can we assume they will get the tax laws straight and a system in place that would take years of planning and multiple government sectors to enforce. It will never happen. Just like it never happened before. 

 

When I saw the latest announcement how they will implement a world tax system, I laughed hysterically. I wish Thailand the best of luck, but I don't think they will be able to pull any of this off. Besides, a new government will come along in a few years and change the strategy again on all these things. Enjoy your retirement in Thailand guys and stop moaning about stuff that has not happened yet and most likely won't. 

Well said.