Tax Return 2025

[sometimewoodworker]

9 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

It started on or just after the 18th Sep last year when The Thai Enquirer published an article on the amendment to Thai tax rulings. And in that article it clearly stated 'Also exempt will be those who have been taxed in a foreign country that has a standing Double Tax Agreement with Thailand'.

 

I have yet to come across anything, anywhere that contradicts that statement. And I've made a pretty thorough search.

I can see nothing that supports your highlighted statement. Because you can find nothing contradicting a statement does not make the statement true.

 

the TRD P161 does not, of course the various DTAs/DTCs effect the status of the assessability of the remitted funds

 

 

[BritManToo]

27 minutes ago, Moonlover said:

When you say  'I don't participate on social media' perhaps you should have added 'with the exception of ASEAN NOW'. 😉

 

I am not, nor have I ever been a participant in AN/TV.

[sqwakvfr]

58 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

One of the big 4 is offering a ฿17,000 + vat fixed price, many other tax preparers offer lower and higher prices, as has been mentioned you are likely, if you have a Thai speaker with you, to get the TRD to help for free. I filed a tax return a few years ago with TRD and translator for free and got a bit over a ฿300 refund.

 

The TRD assistance is unlikely to be so good if you are trying to use a DTA reduction in tax due.

Were talkinga about a simple return(no taxes owed as long the filer proves his money has already been taxed in hir or her country?).  Do you believe as an American tax filer I would actually have to submit my US Federal Income Tax return to TRD? 

[norbra]

7 hours ago, sqwakvfr said:

Threequestions about procedure:

 

1) Thai Tax returns have to be submitted in Thai?  Therefore, all foreign documents would have to be translated. 

2) What would the approximate cost be for an agency to file a Thai Tax return for foreign tax resident? 

 

 

Procedure No1 should be acquire a Tax Identifier Number from a Revenue Department office,as without it you cannot submit a return.

 

[sqwakvfr]

Would this affect an Elite Visa Holder who has a 5,10 or 20 year visa?  Also, if a 5 year Elite Visa simply buys another 5 year visa would the Elite Company ask the person to prove their foreing income?  I doubt it.  So if I want to stay a long time in LOS without tax filing issues then the Elite or even the DTV might the way to go. 

[sqwakvfr]

13 minutes ago, norbra said:

Procedure No1 should be acquire a Tax Identifier Number from a Revenue Department office,as without it you cannot submit a return.

 

Is this process like getting a residency certificate at IMM? 

[tlcwaterfall]

3 hours ago, Yumthai said:

Yes and they put the cash in their bank account(s).

And some keep the money elsewhere as they do not trust the banks and do not want to pay tax.

[Mike Teavee]

3 minutes ago, sqwakvfr said:

Would this affect an Elite Visa Holder who has a 5,10 or 20 year visa?  Also, if a 5 year Elite Visa simply buys another 5 year visa would the Elite Company ask the person to prove their foreing income?  I doubt it.  So if I want to stay a long time in LOS without tax filing issues then the Elite or even the DTV might the way to go. 

There are no exemptions for Elite or DTV holders so if you're staying 180+ days in Thailand in any one calendar year then you will be affected. 

 

Only Visa that does have an exemption is the 10 year LTR Visa so could look into getting one of them if you meet the income requirements. 

 

Edited August 12 by Mike Teavee

[norbra]

13 minutes ago, sqwakvfr said:

Is this process like getting a residency certificate at IMM? 

Similar yes,but in my case I was not required to show any documents as the officer advised that I do not need a TIN. The officer explained that as my income/assets were in my home country currency it would not be taxed only income derived from employment in Thailand would be assessable.

Edited August 12 by norbra

[JimGant]

On 8/11/2024 at 10:23 AM, chiang mai said:

It is entirely feasible that funds arising in country A my be taxed at X percent. The DTA may then assign the right to tax those funds to country B, at Y percent.

A good example is income from rental property. Most DTAs -- as most follow the OECD and UN Model tax treaty language -- give primary taxation authority to the country where the property is located, i.e., the situs country. BUT, since the treaty language says "may be taxed by the situs country" -- but doesn't say "may ONLY be taxed by the situs country" -- then the treaty gives the non situs country secondary taxation rights. [an ONLY in the clause gives exclusionary taxation rights.]

 

So, I'm a tax resident of Thailand, a US citizen, with rental income from a property in the US. My rental income is taxed by the US -- and as the situs country, thus the country with primary taxation authority -- they get to keep the entire kit and caboodle of taxation collected on that rental income. They do have to provide a tax credit for this US tax to Thailand -- since Thailand has secondary taxation authority per treaty.

 

So, knowing Thailand has secondary taxation rights on my rental income -- if remitted -- I take out the back of an envelope, add my rental income to whatever assessable remitted income I already have. And if suddenly I now owe Thai taxes -- or I owe more taxes -- based on the rental income --  I then net my US taxes on this rental income against the Thai taxes owed on the same income -- as the US taxes are a credit. If I get a negative number, I just forget declaring this rental income, since Thailand, as secondary taxation authority, eats dirt due to the tax credit they have to absorb. However, if it turns out, after the US tax credit, Thailand does get some tax revenue -- well, I have to adjust the amount of rental income I declare on the Thai tax return to result in the added Thai tax figure from this rental income. But no need to have tax credit lines on the Thai tax return -- just do this offline, as described above, and plug in the derived numbers that result in the correct tax owed. Obviously, keep your offline figuring in a safe place -- in case you need to explain your logic some day to the TRD,

 

Except for govt pensions -- and the rental example, above -- most DTAs have the country of residence as having either exclusionary, or primary, taxation authority -- meaning, they get to keep it all, and have to issue a tax credit to the secondary taxation authority country to absorb. The US, however, because of their Savings Clause -- always has at least secondary taxation rights -- even when the treaty gives exclusionary, or primary, taxation rights to country of residence. This in no away violates double taxation language in the treaties. Conversely, it just means US treaties prevent "no no taxtion" situations, i.e., you're gonna pay at least Uncle Sam.

[Yumthai]

3 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

They live hand to mouth.  You know this. 

What I know is the ones who live hand to mouth certainly do not reach the threshold to pay tax.

 

The issue is with the remaining large part whose income qualify them to pay tax but do not. Those ones certainly use bank accounts, as Thailand becoming cashless, in order to fully enjoy their money. Their income is therefore as traceable as foreigners' remittances.

Edited August 12 by Yumthai

[rattlesnake]

5 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

Like I have said in the past, the TRD may simply want 300, 500, or 1000 baht for a Certificate of Clearance each year, just like we pay 300 baht for a Certificate of Residence, when they should be free. 

 

They may chase high net worth individuals, but for your average expat pensioner, maybe it's all about paying a few baht for a document from the TRD each year and be on your merry way. 

 

Who knows at this stage, but it's an easy earner for them, and I can't see them walking away from easy money. 

Now that sounds more realistic!

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, sqwakvfr said:

Were talkinga about a simple return(no taxes owed as long the filer proves his money has already been taxed in hir or her country?).  Do you believe as an American tax filer I would actually have to submit my US Federal Income Tax return to TRD? 

If you owe no Thai tax you don’t need to file a Thai tax return.

 

I have virtually no knowledge, or interest in having much knowledge, about USA taxes or the USA/Thai DTA

[chiang mai]

1 hour ago, sqwakvfr said:

Is this process like getting a residency certificate at IMM? 

Yes, similar, about 15 minutes.

[chiang mai]

2 hours ago, sqwakvfr said:

Were talkinga about a simple return(no taxes owed as long the filer proves his money has already been taxed in hir or her country?).  Do you believe as an American tax filer I would actually have to submit my US Federal Income Tax return to TRD? 

You wouldn't file your US return here, you ether file a US return or you do not, based on your level of assessible Thai income. You also don't have to prove anything until/unless asked.

[rattlesnake]

19 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

You also don't have to prove anything until/unless asked.

This is the key point.

[Everyman]

5 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

 

BMT:  "I am here for my annual extension."

 

IO:  "Where your paper from TRD?"

 

BMT:  "I didn't know I needed a paper from the TRD."

 

IO:  "You need a paper from the TRD.  Come back when you have the TRD paper."

 

BMT:  "But extension finish soon." 

 

IO:  "Your problem, not mine." 

 

BMT:  "But, I not know about TRD paper."

 

IO:  "Next customer." 

 

Just another reason for it to be attached to the annual extension, to scoop up people pleading ignorance.   

 

Plead ignorance at your own risk. 

 

Many are lucky enough their renewal falls after the 31st March 2025, so they can sit back and wait and watch.

 

There will most likely be chaos, and most of it may not make any sense, to the point of being humorous for all of us, but at the end of the day, I just can't see the Thai's walking away from being able to extract some easy money, legit or otherwise, out of farang, and some significant money out of high net worth Thai's and foreigners. 

 

Okay, so in a year when nothing like that has happened will this topic finally be put to bed or will there will be some new enforcement prediction to replace it?

[chiang mai]

Just now, Everyman said:

 

Okay, so in a year when nothing like that has happened will this topic finally be put to bed or will there will be some new enforcement prediction to replace it?

We'll certainly try hard to find something to annoy everyone. :))

[rattlesnake]

5 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

There will most likely be chaos, and most of it may not make any sense, to the point of being humorous for all of us, but at the end of the day, I just can't see the Thai's walking away from being able to extract some easy money, legit or otherwise, out of farang, and some significant money out of high net worth Thai's and foreigners. 

I am personally witnessing expats leaving in droves (overreacting IMO, but that is the situation). When the Thai authorities realise by next year that the initial intent (to fill the coffers) is having the opposite effect (less expats, less investment, damaged image compared to neighbouring countries…), I expect them to simply shove it under the carpet, where it will be just one more "terrible good idea that doesn't get enforced".

[chiang mai]

4 minutes ago, rattlesnake said:

I am personally witnessing expats leaving in droves (overreacting IMO, but that is the situation). When the Thai authorities realise by next year that the initial intent (to fill the coffers) is having the opposite effect (less expats, less investment, damaged image compared to neighbouring countries…), I expect them to simply shove it under the carpet, where it will be just one more "terrible good idea that doesn't get enforced".

I hear the airport is heaving with farangs desperate to leave, do you suppose the home governments will consider an airlift!

[norbra]

4 minutes ago, rattlesnake said:

I am personally witnessing expats leaving in droves (overreacting IMO, but that is the situation). When the Thai authorities realise by next year that the initial intent (to fill the coffers) is having the opposite effect (less expats, less investment, damaged image compared to neighbouring countries…), I expect them to simply shove it under the carpet, where it will be just one more "terrible good idea that doesn't get enforced".

From my visit to TRD office it's already shoved

[Ben Zioner]

On 8/11/2024 at 10:50 AM, NorthernRyland said:

Very well but that still includes basically all of us. I bet 90% of people living here have been spending money earned/acquired in the current year (regardless of origin) and thus liable for taxation. The only thing this new law changes is that you no longer can deny it.

You bet wrong. I was well informed of the "seasoning" rule six months before I moved here and did all my tax planning accordingly. I got 10 years legally tax free out of it, and have an LTR visa now. 

 

I am pretty sure that I am not an isolated case, far from it.

[motdaeng]

15 minutes ago, norbra said:

From my visit to TRD office it's already shoved

 

@norbra thank you very much for your efforts ; now everyone can sleep much better ...

 

 

we don't really know what will happened. but i think it's unlikely that this tax issue will go away and stay away ...

 

keep in mind, the TRD doesn't need to go after every foreigner in the first year (starting 2025), they have

technically up to 10 years time to catch a tax evaders ...

 

it seems that some new tax residents will voluntarily file tax returns for 2024 and pay a few thousand baht in taxes.

this could potentially lead to others being held accountable as well... we'll see."

 

note: how long did it take for the system to start enforcing unpaid speeding tickets? only now is it slowly

taking effect... with taxes for foreigner, it could unfold in a similar way ... but it will be for sure more costly!

 

but as often said, to each their own ... 

[rattlesnake]

1 hour ago, motdaeng said:

 

@norbra thank you very much for your efforts ; now everyone can sleep much better ...

 

 

we don't really know what will happened. but i think it's unlikely that this tax issue will go away and stay away ...

 

keep in mind, the TRD doesn't need to go after every foreigner in the first year (starting 2025), they have

technically up to 10 years time to catch a tax evaders ...

 

it seems that some new tax residents will voluntarily file tax returns for 2024 and pay a few thousand baht in taxes.

this could potentially lead to others being held accountable as well... we'll see."

 

note: how long did it take for the system to start enforcing unpaid speeding tickets? only now is it slowly

taking effect... with taxes for foreigner, it could unfold in a similar way ... but it will be for sure more costly!

 

but as often said, to each their own ... 

I understand where you are coming from, but I believe the premise (that farang residents have spare money they are willing to give to the Thai state) is flawed. The majority of retirees in Thailand are here because life in their home country has become unsustainable and they are looking for somewhere where their modest pensions can provide them with a decent existence. Double taxation is a very daunting prospect for these people (I recently spoke to a couple of French retirees and this is stressful for them, bearing in mind they came here looking to relieve some of their stress, not add some). They are going to leave and settle elsewhere, this is certain.

I believe the Thai government is going to backpedal big time within a year from now.


 

Edited August 12 by rattlesnake
Typo.

[gamb00ler]

On 8/11/2024 at 10:23 AM, chiang mai said:

If Y percent is higher and country A does not issue a tax credit, or the tax credit is not usable for whatever reason,

To clarify... country A doesn't "issue" a tax credit.  It is the taxpayer's responsibility to document that tax on some specific income was actually assessed and paid to country A.  The taxpayer will self-assess his income in his tax filing for country B.  No documentation of tax credits is filed with the taxpayer's tax filing to country B. The taxpayer will need to retain documentation of tax paid to country A in case of an audit of his tax return to country B.

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, gamb00ler said:

To clarify... country A doesn't "issue" a tax credit.  It is the taxpayer's responsibility to document that tax on some specific income was actually assessed and paid to country A.  The taxpayer will self-assess his income in his tax filing for country B.  No documentation of tax credits is filed with the taxpayer's tax filing to country B. The taxpayer will need to retain documentation of tax paid to country A in case of an audit of his tax return to country B.

Yes I agree, I was trying to give a simple description rather than define the process.

[anrcaccount]

5 hours ago, rattlesnake said:

This is the key point.

 

Key point 1- yes. Tax in TH is a complete honor system. 

 

Key point 2- there is no link or info sharing between TRD and Immigration. Exception is, if you work in Thailand on a Non B Visa.

 

Key point 3 - if you didn't file a return last year, don't this year. Nothing has changed, unless the authorities directly let you know it has. 

 

 

[chiang mai]

4 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

 

Key point 1- yes. Tax in TH is a complete honor system. 

 

Key point 2- there is no link or info sharing between TRD and Immigration. Exception is, if you work in Thailand on a Non B Visa.

 

Key point 3 - if you didn't file a return last year, don't this year. Nothing has changed, unless the authorities directly let you know it has. 

 

 

I keep checking my mail box waiting for that personalized letter....will I have to wait long do you think!

[Everyman]

9 hours ago, chiang mai said:

I hear the airport is heaving with farangs desperate to leave, do you suppose the home governments will consider an airlift!

I am visiting Vietnam and there are many recent former Thailand expats here. There are many nomads and retirees and nobody is concerned about any tax laws. 

[CharlesHolzhauer]

8 hours ago, rattlesnake said:

I believe the premise (that farang residents have spare money they are willing to give to the Thai state) is flawed. The majority of retirees in Thailand are here because life in their home country has become unsustainable and they are looking for somewhere where their modest pensions can provide them with a decent existence.

This is hilarious. Thailand is the Shangri-la for the disadvantaged, underprivileged and riffraff.