Its Happening - Law to Tax Overseas Income Now in Progress

[sandrew33]

On 9/9/2024 at 10:07 AM, lordgrinz said:

 

Actually it is terrible, the tax liability for us foreigners can be much higher here in Thailand than our own countries, some of us have no tax in our home countries because we fall under taxable limits. 

Although you wouldn’t have no tax if you advised the local authorities that you weren’t tax resident. Consider Australia - the tax free threshold only applies to tax residents. If you have ceased to be Aussie tax resident you should pay tax on your Aussie pension from dollar 1. 
 

But people don’t advise the revenue authority and keep claiming the tax free threshold. 
 

 

[CharlesHolzhauer]

5 hours ago, JimGant said:

This thread is about what happens if Thailand switches to worldwide taxation. If they do,the remittance aspect of taxation avoidance disappears. So using remitted gifts for tax avoidance will no longer be a player.

Yes, I understand that my suggestion will only work under the current circumstances to reduce or eliminate the amount of tax payable, and I believe the original poster is aware of this.

[sandrew33]

21 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

That's not correct as you can be a Tax Resident in 1 country, multiple countries or no countries at all. 

 

E.g. I am Tax Resident in Thailand, if I spend <180 days in Thailand & bounce around different countries for the remainder of the year never establishing Tax Residency in any of them I won't be a Tax Resident anywhere. 

 

If you are claiming that I would revert to being Tax Resident in my home country then that's not true either as you need to spend a minimum of 15 days in the UK & given I've been Non-UK Tax Resident for >3 years (18 years) & have a maximum of 1 "Tie" (even that is debatable) in the UK I would need to spend > 182 days there in 1 Tax Year to re-establish my UK Tax Residency. 

 

I said many countries not all countries.
 

Certainly my native Australia for one. It is theoretically possible to be tax resident nowhere yes. It’s unlikely as an Aussie because you are tax resident in Australia under the Aussie law if your domicile is in Australia unless you have a permanent place of abode outside Australia. So a transient lifestyle in multiple countries would see you remain Aussie resident. 
 

UK has both tax resident and domicile tests which work differently. Whether you are tax resident or not you still need to apply the non-dom tests including the deemed dom tests if you remain a UK citizen. While complex you have more chance of being tax resident nowhere than an Aussie does. 
 

EDIT: By the way not being tax resident in a place doesn’t automatically absolve you of not paying tax. If you are non UK resident and have UK source income then you still pay tax on that in the UK. Obviously in many cases you can plan around that but not all. 
 

 

Edited September 10 by sandrew33

[Presnock]

On 9/9/2024 at 7:21 AM, Shmo said:

Globalist tax regimes are being changed everywhere. Something fishy going on!

Good Morning Vietnam,  or Cambodia, or Laos!

don't you understand why this is happening in so many places?  you have to be kidding - it began with so may people making money but not paying taxes on their income to any country so in July 2023, the OECD reached an agreement to which 138 countries signed, designed to get people to pay taxes to some country - immediately I note on this forum alone, so many people have already come up with plans to avoid still paying taxes though they do look legal based on current country's tax-resident requirements.  If many people are still found to be avoiding the payment of taxes, then those laws too may change.  Just saying.  have a good day.

[sandrew33]

5 minutes ago, Presnock said:

don't you understand why this is happening in so many places?  you have to be kidding - it began with so may people making money but not paying taxes on their income to any country so in July 2023, the OECD reached an agreement to which 138 countries signed, designed to get people to pay taxes to some country - immediately I note on this forum alone, so many people have already come up with plans to avoid still paying taxes though they do look legal based on current country's tax-resident requirements.  If many people are still found to be avoiding the payment of taxes, then those laws too may change.  Just saying.  have a good day.

And taking this further, if you are an expat living in any country solely based on visas then you need to ask yourself how much risk you want to take in this space. 
 

A significant tax audit and adverse outcome could result in non renewal of Visa in some jurisdictions. 
 

I dislike tax as much as the next person but ultimately choosing to ignore laws because you think they are dumb is a brave strategy. 

[Presnock]

20 hours ago, Qld4000 said:

What a mess , I’ve read so many interpretations of this Tax issue on forums , seen so many YouTube carnival barkers spruiking different angles  and still in the dark other than disappearing for six months & avoiding the problem. 
IF…your total foreign income needs to be declared & submitted to Thai Tax  authorities , do you really want them trawling through your financial affairs & questioning you every step of the way since they like that approach when the option of rinsing you for money is in their hands. 
 

Another thing, will those financials require translating & notarising by a consulate or relevant authority.   Otherwise you could submit anything. 
Will they need to liase with the Tax accountant that prepared your  financials.   ??   Will they require bank statements, details of transactions etc etc ……I can imagine this b@ll<deleted> could drag on indefinitely AND …it’s likely you’ll be interviewed by a tax office “underling “ with no idea either .

 

Even if it’s finally set in stone what is required……do you really want to go through the above process every year with likely follow ups.  
 

At the moment….my affairs are easily done 5 minutes on a Govt website who have ALL my financial info via a TFN tax file no.   That site simply sends me its figures from its data base on me…..I amend if necessary & hit ENTER.     Done & dusted.  
 

Compare that to dealing with Thai tax authorities.    Not a hope in hell. 
 

A change of scenery for 6 months of the year will be a pleasure. A rolling stone gathers no moss & a few blokes here could be better off as a moving target & ATM service as well.  

Yeah, I too worry about the financial future - already with AI I guess that is what we call it, puts everything in a big library so to speak - even now we see stories of how folks have been robbed by people accessing their data in some sites - now we are going to be required to do that globally - and I hardly trust my own banks with my data and even less trust for foreign bankers - especially in this country.  SCARY - but you have that business take care of your tax finances - you have to pay for that too right?  I am sure it can't be too cheap but I really don't know.  I also realize that the local tax agencies have big signs advertizing for new agents to handle all the expats - in various languages and will probably be including translations for many clients with a "small" fee added.  Best of luck to all of us and hope the parliament doesn't approve of these new schemes being hatched to fleece the expats.  just like the khaosod story on maybe the govt should have special taxes on condos for foreigners.

[Presnock]

2 minutes ago, sandrew33 said:

And taking this further, if you are an expat living in any country solely based on visas then you need to ask yourself how much risk you want to take in this space. 
 

A significant tax audit and adverse outcome could result in non renewal of Visa in some jurisdictions. 
 

I dislike tax as much as the next person but ultimately choosing to ignore laws because you think they are dumb is a brave strategy. 

not only having a visa cancelled due to tax evasion charges (if proven) one could also have a hefty fine plus prison time added and then explulsion from this country.  Not a pleasant thought for sure.

[Presnock]

17 hours ago, Thaindrew said:

it is not clear that the DTV will be tax free if you are here over 180days, with the proposed global tax method requiring new legislation the DTV and indeed the LTR visas will not be auto-exempt, they are only exempt under the current legislation 

Yessir!  TIT and if one does meet the requirements to be a tax resident then taxes will be due and yeah, the DIR GEN of the revenue dept could declare that LTR holders are not tax exempt too on money remitted and in the next tax scheme here, who knows what other requirements they might levy on expats which they all see as "easy" targets.  After all, they consider those of us from the west to be rich anyway though in most cases that is a joke!

[Presnock]

16 hours ago, jwest10 said:

Yes, they simply do not go after the filthy rich anywhere!!!

Yeah why so many rich folks go to the US as usually the people with power provide a candidate for higher office that will provide the rich and powerful with bigger tax breaks and give them more power!

 

[Presnock]

15 hours ago, chiang mai said:

US Social Security payments to non-Thai citizens in Thailand are tax exempt under terms of the DTA

US social security is tax exempt per the DTA  for all recipients - the other US govt pension recipient who is a Thai national would not be exempt as a US citizen receiving a US govt pension.  Artical 21 of DTA

[Presnock]

13 hours ago, jesimps said:

Like the visa based on marriage to a Thai, it'll be a paper chase, only on an international scale. If it means phone calls to HMRC UK, I think I'll top myself. I had to phone them several months back. Nearly an hour sat listening to music waiting to speak with someone, then trying to decypher the West Indian and the  Jock on the other end of the line. It was a nightmare.

same with US govt offices and international phone calls.

[chiang mai]

2 minutes ago, Presnock said:

US social security is tax exempt per the DTA  for all recipients - the other US govt pension recipient who is a Thai national would not be exempt as a US citizen receiving a US govt pension.  Artical 21 of DTA

Didn't we say the same thing.

[Presnock]

12 hours ago, ballpoint said:

 

That may be the case.  My first reaction would then be to argue that they have no right to tax overseas fund gains that aren't remitted to Thailand when their own ones are tax free, and when that likely fails, go back to plan "A":  Only realise and remit a gain during non-resident years.

A foreigner arguing with a Thai bureaucrat - GOOD LUCK with that!

[Presnock]

8 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Didn't we say the same thing.

I ADDED THE US GOVT PENSION  which is also exempt IAW the DTA except for Thai nationals that receive such pensions

[motdaeng]

37 minutes ago, Presnock said:

 ... people making money but not paying taxes on their income to any country ...

 

i haven’t paid any income or savings taxes in any country as living for the last 20 years in thailand, except for the withholding tax on bank interest.

should i feel guilty? no, i’ve spent a lot of money over the years on things like bikes, cars, land, houses, school, insurance, and raising a family.

we all know, even if we pay taxes in thailand we will get nothing in return ... nothing will improve or getting easier for us ...

 

[Presnock]

1 minute ago, motdaeng said:

 

i haven’t paid any income or savings taxes in any country as living for the last 20 years in thailand, except for the withholding tax on bank interest.

should i feel guilty? no, i’ve spent a lot of money over the years on things like bikes, cars, land, houses, school, insurance, and raising a family.

we all know, even if we pay taxes in thailand we will get nothing in return ... nothing will improve or getting easier for us ...

 

exactly the the target of the changes in taxation around the world.  I too live here and have for more years than you and have spent millions yearly but I also have paid taxes every year to my home country, but I just want to stay here without all the changes - right now I don't see any change for me but TIT and their greed and disdain for expats.

[itsari]

1 hour ago, CharlesHolzhauer said:

Yes, I understand that my suggestion will only work under the current circumstances to reduce or eliminate the amount of tax payable, and I believe the original poster is aware of this.

The original poster is  not aware.

I see no backup posts from the original poster.

Only aware of how to put troll like articles created by others.

[Yumthai]

2 hours ago, Presnock said:

don't you understand why this is happening in so many places?  you have to be kidding - it began with so may people making money but not paying taxes on their income to any country so in July 2023, the OECD reached an agreement to which 138 countries signed, designed to get people to pay taxes to some country - immediately I note on this forum alone, so many people have already come up with plans to avoid still paying taxes though they do look legal based on current country's tax-resident requirements.  If many people are still found to be avoiding the payment of taxes, then those laws too may change.  Just saying.  have a good day.

 

Are you implying that everybody should comply and pay more and more taxes because it's just and fair? You have to be kidding.

 

Au contraire, I think that blindly abiding by unfair rules leads to less individual freedom, privacy and gives more power to the untouchable elite who lives comfortably milking the brainwashed crowd.

 

Number makes history. Mass people have the power to build their own future if they stand all together for what they think it's right, not following a global agenda.

[yozah]

He is describing the situation. Better get your guns ready.

[Presnock]

14 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

 

Are you implying that everybody should comply and pay more and more taxes because it's just and fair? You have to be kidding.

 

Au contraire, I think that blindly abiding by unfair rules leads to less individual freedom, privacy and gives more power to the untouchable elite who lives comfortably milking the brainwashed crowd.

 

Number makes history. Mass people have the power to build their own future if they stand all together for what they think it's right, not following a global agenda.

I believe that folks that earn a minimum income should pay taxes to either their native country or to the country in which they reside.  It is basically called a fari share - now I don't set the limits but I have paid my income tax for over 60 years.  governments unless they control a money making enterprize - i.e. oil wells, gold mines, diamonds, etc and then in turn provide services for their citizens and workers.  I realize too that paying taxes here, is not fair as expats have no real rights whatsoever and some of us have contributed many millions of baht regularly without getting any services from the government.  From what I see the past year to date, many senior Thai officials consider expats as a "milk cow" so to speak and are expressing possible means to extract more money from us.  Eventually, that milk will run dry as we move on to more favorable locations, and in many cases may just return to our native lands so that we can get some services provide from the government.  Are all taxes everywhere fair? I don't know.  I do see that the Philippines recognizes what the expats bring with them and have not so far tried to milk them.  I lived there for 6 years and loved it - just not the storms, floods, earthquakes, volcanoes erupting and local food is not great for me while I also know western foods are available - but I prefer Thai food.  I also am glad the US DTA offers some protection from local taxes for me.  If people have to pay additional - that I don't think is fair either.  But even on this forum we read regularly about how many years some expats have lived here without paying any income tax anywhere and some are planning or have made plans to avoid paying any tax here or elsewhere.  That I don't believe in either.  Eventually, immigration and revenue from around the world will come up with strategies to cover every possible way of avoiding taxes.  My opinion and it may take a long time but since 138 countries signed that OECD agreement, the thoughts about non paying folks is readily apparent to me.  Best of luck to everyone, whatever you decide to do.

[bkk6060]

2 hours ago, Presnock said:

US social security is tax exempt per the DTA  for all recipients - the other US govt pension recipient who is a Thai national would not be exempt as a US citizen receiving a US govt pension.  Artical 21 of DTA

Wow, never heard that before thanks so much.

[Presnock]

3 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

Wow, never heard that before thanks so much.

DTA for all in Thai and English anyway for US can be easily found - just google that....or better yet you can go to the Thai Revenue dept website - they carry English too for DTA's and also royal exemption such as that for the LTR for anyone interested.  Best to read the DTA prior to making any real changes to life here.  Good luck

[sandyf]

14 hours ago, VBF said:

@sandyf- We're both right, but you are PARTIALLY right and PARTIALLY wrong.

 

At PRESENT, The full rate of new State Pension is £221.20 a week - that is the higher of the 2 tiers and = £11,502.40 per annum - here's the official proof

The new State Pension: What you'll get - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk) 

 

At PRESENT (Tax Year 6 April 2024 to 5 April 2025) The standard Personal Allowance is £12,570 - again official proof here

 Income Tax rates and Personal Allowances : Current rates and allowances - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

 

So, as i said At PRESENT, the PA IS more than the Full Pension by £1067.60 - as I also said, not by much.

 

However you also said  "There are quite a percentage of people getting well over the PA from their state pension." - Yes - i'm one of them but because of "protected payments" which put the weekly State Pension amount over the £221.20 and thus over the PA.

 

So in that respect you are correct.

You have the wrong end of the stick entirely, the new State Pension is single tier arrangement so there cannot be a higher tier.

As I said, between 1978 and 2016 the state pension was a 2 tier arrangement, the state pension came in 2 parts, the basic pension and the additional earnings related pension. Many pensioners are receiving their additional state pension as part of a workplace/private pension.

There are however many that never contracted out that are receiving a state pension that consists of the basic pension plus earnings related components, I have 4 such components in my state pension..

I worked with people on shift that were earning twice as much as me as a manager, their state pension could  be well over £400/week.

As I also said everyone only ever refer to the old basic state pension and the new state pension, both in the singular, the additional state pension has been removed from the rhetoric.

[DrPhibes]

Copy of a post I did in another group:

 

So, a lot of this has to do with reporting and ability to enforce this potential new Thai tax situation for us as tax residents.  I am an American citizen.  Thailand participates in FATCA Model 1 where Thailand reports my accounts in Thailand to the US but the US does not report accounts to Thailand.  The US does not participate in CRS so no information to Thailand through that system.  If Thailand wants a Tax Clearance letter from the IRS, it only says I have filed my returns and they are paid up.  It offers no information about income, so nothing there.  So, Thailand trying to find out what I have in the US is impossible at this point so it makes enforcement due to discovery of my US accounts pretty much impossible.   A good chunk going forward being brought into Thailand will be my Social Security which is not taxable to Thailand according to the DTA. However, If they ask for my US income tax returns, I'm leaving.

[redwood1]

3 hours ago, Presnock said:

don't you understand why this is happening in so many places?  you have to be kidding - it began with so may people making money but not paying taxes on their income to any country so in July 2023, the OECD reached an agreement to which 138 countries signed, designed to get people to pay taxes to some country - immediately I note on this forum alone, so many people have already come up with plans to avoid still paying taxes though they do look legal based on current country's tax-resident requirements.  If many people are still found to be avoiding the payment of taxes, then those laws too may change.  Just saying.  have a good day.

 

Good I hope everyone finds ways to pay zero taxes just like the mega rich pay no taxes..

[CharlesHolzhauer]

2 hours ago, itsari said:

The original poster is  not aware.

I see no backup posts from the original poster.

Only aware of how to put troll like articles created by others.

Based on the responses from the original poster, it is quite evident that your sentiment is not shared.

[tifino]

This is all old news and anyone now reacting with shock&horror only just now must have had their heads buried in sand for the past12 months... 

 Anyway being forewarned we in Jan24 bought our condo, with certain intention of only every doing our twice 6odays visits to LOS to our new holiday home. 

 Being prepared, the entire purchase was done with 1.8M the cash in our little shopping bag at the real estate office. 

Never doing any form of international banking transfers from OZ. No Wise...nothing like that...

Mrs knows she is equally affected and happy to also only do the <180 days in LOS... 

Anybody else who read all the warnings that started filtering down from News Gazettes approx back in aug23 have also had that whole 12+months to get themselves organised... 

On every flight up to LOS we are carrying Max allowable Cash, and have all the CreditCards 'extra'topped up and spilling over with all those extra invisible funds for spending... feels good using a credit card as a savingsdebitcard 

To further isolate from any chance of copping thai taxes, we won't ever rent our most-of-the-year-empty condo either... 

Any/every time we send $ to our los bank account it is only done via our local thai grocery in Melb OZ... a very simple system where we hand the 1000s over to him, that simply goes into his own account in OZ... he sms's a photo of our los bank acct and the money amount details; and his daily counterparts in Bangkok simply domestically transfers the thb across to our SCBacct from his thaibank accouht 😀  No money actually moves across country borders   

[Rolo89]

1 hour ago, Presnock said:

I believe that folks that earn a minimum income should pay taxes to either their native country or to the country in which they reside.  It is basically called a fari share - now I don't set the limits but I have paid my income tax for over 60 years.  governments unless they control a money making enterprize - i.e. oil wells, gold mines, diamonds, etc and then in turn provide services for their citizens and workers.  I realize too that paying taxes here, is not fair as expats have no real rights whatsoever and some of us have contributed many millions of baht regularly without getting any services from the government.

Yes I agree with paying tax somewhere. Thailand is very bad for what you get in return.

 

For me Thailand only suits for a couple of years to minimise tax in my home country for a few years and paying tax on 5m thb is acceptable and the record of paying tax is helpful in the long term for my situation. But if they make new laws it's not difficult to move elsewhere and as much as I like Thailand it doesn't take much for somewhere else to appeal more.

Edited September 11 by Rolo89

[itsari]

9 minutes ago, CharlesHolzhauer said:

Based on the responses from the original poster, it is quite evident that your sentiment is not shared.

Well Charles, I don't expect him to respond either.

 

[jwest10]

19 hours ago, LOG54 said:

Hello

I don't know how to post a link..

Interesting article by Thai examiner on 8th in which they say "very quickly" long term visas will be linked to tax declarations..

Have a good day

 

P.S. Here is the link:

https://www.thaiexaminer.com/thai-news-foreigners/2024/09/08/revenue-department-preparing-legislation-as-new-expat-tax-regime-may-link-visas-and-tax-returns/

iSaw this and stated may well do in the future!!!