Don’t kill the golden goose! Tax reforms may drive away expats

[Jerry777]

On 9/13/2024 at 11:12 AM, Jerry777 said:

I worked for a Thai Government Training institution many years ago for a year, I was fired for not allowing them to cheat on the final exams.

Its true. I was quite amazed as they worked in very safety oriented jobs.

[FridgeMagnet1]

On 9/10/2024 at 6:34 PM, Badrabbit said:

What an idiotic comment from I dare say an idiot.

No mate, I’m sure you are a golden goose. 
 

expats in Thailands really are the backbone of the country 

[FridgeMagnet1]

On 9/11/2024 at 4:01 AM, BritScot said:

A very uneducated statement.  If you hate expats so much why bother with a site that was originally started for expats? A little education about the people you have zero respect for: first they help the Thai economy with 400k or 800k sitting ideal in a Thai bank account which allows that bank to lend times 10 ie for every expat a bank can lend upto 8 million baht to Thai as expats can't even get a credit card. Those beer soaked expats may well be supporting a wife, children and even family members something many Thai men seem to have problem's with and who often disappears when their wives become pregnant. Other expats may have businesses that employ many Thais and normally those employees are treated far better than their counterparts with Thai bosses. You can also talk about the business all expats support and contribute to from food, restaurants, auto industry and even those expats who partake in the ceedy side of Thailand may partake a little private entertainment which contributes to short time hotels and helps indirectly support those children Thai men have abandoned. Think before you type very arogant and derogatory terms and as a foot note: expats are both male and female!!!! Phew!!!!

Yeah mate, the country runs on expats!! They are the golden goose!

[MeePeeMai]

On 9/14/2024 at 12:49 AM, topt said:

Check out @ukrules posts - he has already moved and I believe @Danderman123 also........

 

You can add me to that list (and most of the other farangs that used to live in my building in Udon).

 

[Expat68]

2 hours ago, FridgeMagnet1 said:

No mate, I’m sure you are a golden goose. 
 

expats in Thailands really are the backbone of the country 

Not sure about that

[Presnock]

On 9/11/2024 at 10:51 PM, zmisha said:

Immigration officers in any country become very kind once they see that population is decreasing very fast in the country. I think we will see a small decrease in population of Thailand in the nearest 1-2 year. And the next 3-4 year the decrease will be obvious for everyone. Subsequently, stopping depopulation by welcoming immigrants will be the most probable solution for this even in Thailand.
And the followers of the traditional approach to immigration policies will be forced to retreat.

well, local news reports of falling birthrates in Thailand indicate that within 50 year unless the trend is reversed, the population of Thailand will be 50% of what it is now.  Same is happening in many other countries too, even as the older citizens are becoming a greater percentage of the populations - who will be around to take care of them?

[bkk6060]

13 minutes ago, Presnock said:

who will be around to take care of them?

They are called elderly care facilities.  Most westerners don´t take care of their old family they pay someone else or old people pay themselves.

[Presnock]

On 9/14/2024 at 5:12 PM, anrcaccount said:

 

There hasn't been any change to how the law is enforced.

 

There have been no reports of enforcement, or official indication of potential mechanisms of enforcement, for foreign income remittances based on the new interpretation. 

 

If you know of any enforcement of this that has occurred, please share, as I'm sure that would be of interest. 

 

Additionally - If you know of any enforcement of the the foreign income remittance (same year earned) law that's existed for many years now, please share that also. 

 

 

 

 

when the new year rolls around then we shall be seeing the enforcement of this... possibly if they do come out with new tax

forms in Nov-dec timeframe, we might have a better idea of any changes and maybe some more clarification from the revenue folks.  But, TIT and I am not considering the holding of my breath for any new info from these folks.  Good luck to all the expats 

[Presnock]

On 9/12/2024 at 5:44 PM, Rob Browder said:

I assume the return for the year prior would be used, if before the filing-deadline for that year.  If after the tax-deadline, but before a confirmation by the tax-guys, proof that a filing had been made could be accepted.   

 

But, even better (for all concerned), would be that immigration can log into a portal and check there is no "red tax-flag" on an applicant, and that they are "in the system."   Once "in the system," one is open to audit, and the tax-guys have their own enforcement mechanisms.

 

Related: Note the proposal for a "negative income tax" for lower-earning Thais (currently do not have to file), which would trick every Thai who wanted to get the "free" money "into the system," where they can be audited.  Eventually, they would simply declare everyone must file.

believe that is what they said in the policy speech - with the negative income tax part in which they said every working Thai will be part of the new tax system.   I could be wrong in my interpretation though it wouldn't be the first time.  I also think that when they use the term "expand the tax base" they mean to include expats but they already have heard I am sure that we are not happy with these taxation schemes.

[anrcaccount]

1 minute ago, Presnock said:

when the new year rolls around then we shall be seeing the enforcement of this... possibly if they do come out with new tax

forms in Nov-dec timeframe, we might have a better idea of any changes and maybe some more clarification from the revenue folks.  But, TIT and I am not considering the holding of my breath for any new info from these folks.  Good luck to all the expats 

 

We'll see.

 

What everyone seems to forget is that for many years now, foreign income remitted in the same year earned has been liable for tax. Expats collectively have done this with abandon, and remitted large sums, billions of baht. No enforcement.  

 

Alongside this, the vast majority of non-working expats have never filed a tax return in Thailand. No enforcement. 

 

A single interpretation on timing of remitting foreign income changes, causing media and forum hysteria. No reports of any planned or actual changes in operational practices or enforcement. 

 

At this point, the most likely outcome looks to me-  to be changes only in self enforcement!  As you say, good luck to all. 

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, Presnock said:

believe that is what they said in the policy speech - with the negative income tax part in which they said every working Thai will be part of the new tax system.   I could be wrong in my interpretation though it wouldn't be the first time.  I also think that when they use the term "expand the tax base" they mean to include expats but they already have heard I am sure that we are not happy with these taxation schemes.

The tax base is a low 25% of the workforce, any Revenue Dept would be crazy not to want to expand that. But that doesn't necessarily imply they will do so by adding the foreign community, it's far more probable tp think they want to tackle the Thai sector.

[Presnock]

1 minute ago, anrcaccount said:

 

We'll see.

 

What everyone seems to forget is that for many years now, foreign income remitted in the same year earned has been liable for tax. Expats collectively have done this with abandon, and remitted large sums, billions of baht. No enforcement.  

 

Alongside this, the vast majority of non-working expats have never filed a tax return in Thailand. No enforcement. 

 

A single interpretation on timing of remitting foreign income changes, causing media and forum hysteria. No reports of any planned or actual changes in operational practices or enforcement. 

 

At this point, the most likely outcome looks to me-  to be changes only in self enforcement!  As you say, good luck to all. 

But in the majority of those earlier years, I do believe that we expats as a group were mostly ignorant of the tax laws as we just ignored them and the revenue department ignored us too.  But now that the new govt has found that the coffers are totally empty except for dust with promises to spend even greater sums than they have, and with all the international changes brought about by the OECD, CRS FATCA, the government here sees some possible sources that they too were ignorant of ... time is zooming by so one way or the other, believe we will see what they have in store for us...

[Presnock]

3 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

The tax base is a low 25% of the workforce, any Revenue Dept would be crazy not to want to expand that. But that doesn't necessarily imply they will do so by adding the foreign community, it's far more probable tp think they want to tackle the Thai sector.

Am sure that the majority of expats hope your are correct, but the big thing for me in all this has been to be schooled on what I previously was totally ignorant on - my financial status and these tax schemes and visa prospects...I now can continue to ignore whatever they come up with.  If they want to challenge international treaties, then believe I have at least 6 months to make plans for any necessary changes.  Good luck.

[Rolo89]

1 hour ago, Presnock said:

well, local news reports of falling birthrates in Thailand indicate that within 50 year unless the trend is reversed, the population of Thailand will be 50% of what it is now.  Same is happening in many other countries too, even as the older citizens are becoming a greater percentage of the populations - who will be around to take care of them?

With the air quality I suspect many wont need a great deal of care. Life expectancy has peaked. 

[lordgrinz]

1 hour ago, Rolo89 said:

With the air quality I suspect many wont need a great deal of care. Life expectancy has peaked. 

 

I don't think any of us Farang's have done ourselves any favors by moving to one of the most polluted places on Earth either.

[Balance]

On 9/11/2024 at 5:14 AM, norsurin said:

Agree..i used to stay about 180 days before.Had a house.Now i dont owing anything and just rent or stay in hotel 3-4 months a year I dont take any chances about Thailand anymore.

As I read through this, it occurred to me that Tea Money is likely the largest source of earnings in the country. 

[DrJack54]

Off topic post removed.

[FridgeMagnet1]

12 hours ago, bkk6060 said:

They are called elderly care facilities.  Most westerners don´t take care of their old family they pay someone else or old people pay themselves.

Have you ever seen a Thai care home?

 

no electricity after 9pm, no running water at night, absolute hell holes.

 

[saakura]

43 minutes ago, FridgeMagnet1 said:

Have you ever seen a Thai care home?

 

no electricity after 9pm, no running water at night, absolute hell holes.

 

Not true, I have been to a few of them and there is electricity but they switch off the main lights at 9pm but reading areas are available for those elders who stay up late. And definitely there was running water 24/7 and showers + toilets were reasonably clean.

[Rolo89]

20 hours ago, lordgrinz said:

 

I don't think any of us Farang's have done ourselves any favors by moving to one of the most polluted places on Earth either.

Very true, but at least Farangs can somewhat control their exposure and maybe leave the country for the months it gets really bad. I probably did myself more damage each year cycling in London. 

[WhatsNext]

For 90% of the retired people, nothing will change as there is a tax treaty with quite a lot of countries. For the reaming 10%, that i fall under myself as well, it will be time to pay, at least on paper.

 

Won't wake up the sleeping dogs, but i can see someone waking up in the government and adding a tax paper to the requirements of the yearly visa extension. Then it's time for Malaysia, Vietnam, Philippines or Cambodia as they have no taxes (or very little) for retirees. 

 

I am fine with paying taxes, but then i want the same rights as the Thai.

[Expat68]

1 hour ago, WhatsNext said:

For 90% of the retired people, nothing will change as there is a tax treaty with quite a lot of countries. For the reaming 10%, that i fall under myself as well, it will be time to pay, at least on paper.

 

Won't wake up the sleeping dogs, but i can see someone waking up in the government and adding a tax paper to the requirements of the yearly visa extension. Then it's time for Malaysia, Vietnam, Philippines or Cambodia as they have no taxes (or very little) for retirees. 

 

I am fine with paying taxes, but then i want the same rights as the Thai.

As my girlfriend said we should get the same health care if we pay tax

[WhatsNext]

42 minutes ago, Expat68 said:

As my girlfriend said we should get the same health care if we pay tax

 

Would be paying more tax than 95% of the Thai, no illusion however that i am in the same basket as the CP foods family. 

So a green card, rights to buy and own land, no 90 days BS,  and so on same as the OECD that Thailand so desperately want to appease. 

 

Thai income tax is actually pretty high, if you have over 1 million THB per year, it already is 25% and goes up to 35% in the last bracket. It's more than some EU member states. 

[Klonko]

1 hour ago, WhatsNext said:

...

Thai income tax is actually pretty high, if you have over 1 million THB per year, it already is 25% and goes up to 35% in the last bracket. It's more than some EU member states. 

My tax rate in my home country,  where I have a secondary domicile, would be 5% lower and capital gains are not taxed. But the even bigger issues for me are (1)  documenting  my Thai tax return would be a nightmare because the relevant documents are not in English , (2) it is technically impossible for me to file until March 31 because I have to wait for some tax relevant reports until mid-year, and (3) I could reclaim tax credits only two years in arrears when my foreign taxes will be officially assessed. However, I am quite relaxed because it will take Thailand many years to establish a working global tax system going along with rescinding the 180 days rule and I do not expect  Thailand to become tax hell compared with some attractive western countries.

[DrPhibes]

On 9/16/2024 at 8:37 AM, anrcaccount said:

 

We'll see.

 

What everyone seems to forget is that for many years now, foreign income remitted in the same year earned has been liable for tax. Expats collectively have done this with abandon, and remitted large sums, billions of baht. No enforcement.  

 

Alongside this, the vast majority of non-working expats have never filed a tax return in Thailand. No enforcement. 

 

A single interpretation on timing of remitting foreign income changes, causing media and forum hysteria. No reports of any planned or actual changes in operational practices or enforcement. 

 

At this point, the most likely outcome looks to me-  to be changes only in self enforcement!  As you say, good luck to all. 

Which is why I always season my money in a separate bank account overseas and bring in the next calendar year 😉 

[topt]

1 hour ago, DrPhibes said:

Which is why I always season my money in a separate bank account overseas and bring in the next calendar year 😉 

You speak in the present tense so I have to ask you do realise that is now irrelevant for anything that was not savings prior to 31/12/2023?

[ukrules]

5 hours ago, Klonko said:

along with rescinding the 180 days rule

 

That's not going to happen, it's pretty much a global thing with perhaps one notable exception where they genuinely believe they're special and tax their citizens globally regardless of residency.

 

[flexomike]

On 9/14/2024 at 5:27 PM, chiang mai said:

FWIW I think an AVERAGE spend of 65k per month across all long stay visa holders is far too high. 

Anyone married to a Thai that enjoys life can easily spend that much, not everyone lives in a jungle environment. You are the expert on everything. I have a large group of foreign people I hang out with and they all spend well north of 65,000.

[flexomike]

On 9/16/2024 at 5:46 AM, FridgeMagnet1 said:

Yeah mate, the country runs on expats!! They are the golden goose!

Well of course the country doesn't run on expats, but a lot of small communities are greatly helped by the money that they spend, mom and pop shops hiring laborers supporting all the businesses in the neighborhood. Thailand as a country will not be hurt by expats departing but a lot of people will be. I have several people that I hire on a regular basis and if I leave they loose my financial input.

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, flexomike said:

Anyone married to a Thai that enjoys life can easily spend that much, not everyone lives in a jungle environment. You are the expert on everything. I have a large group of foreign people I hang out with and they all spend well north of 65,000.

 

Do you have a problem with me thinking something or having a particular belief?

 

"FWIW I think an AVERAGE spend of 65k per month across all long stay visa holders is far too high". 

 

And I suppose you do understand how averages work, don't you! In order to have an average of 65k, there would be highs and lows that went well above and well below that figure in order to arrive at an average of 65k. That would include the circle of people you know and a lot of pensioners on the maximum UK State Pension of 221 Pounds per week, which is only 41k baht per month.