Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part II

[JimGant]

Lemme see. 60k per mia noi, times 20, equals...nevermind.

[4myr]

5 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Perhaps he's assuming that the person takes every allowance and deduction/allowance possible?

Using this tax calculator https://www.uobam.co.th/en/tax-calculation, with 5 M income and I use all the possible deductions/allowances  - wife, 3 children, 4 parents, 1 disabled person, all the possible investments, life insurance etc. I come to a net income of 2,683,819.95 and tax to be paid 570,145.98, which is 11.4%.

 

A tax adviser creative more than me can easily come to 10%.

 

Back to the Bangkok Post article. A few quotes that's interesting:
 

"For example, salaried employees bear 80% of the total personal income tax burden. However, only 4 million individuals pay personal income tax, though the labour force tallies 40 million. This means only 10% of the total workforce pays income tax."

 

 

[Yumthai]

7 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

A person who fled as self employed and took the 60% standard deduction for costs, along with all the other deductions probably could......but I'm not about to test or prove this, I only pointed out what he said, I'm not going to try and prove/disprove it.

OK. I think this part of the BP article is very "oriented" because it's clear that very few taxpayers who file 5M+ THB can get an effective PIT rate < 20%.

[OJAS]

21 hours ago, chiang mai said:

An interesting statement in todays Bangkok Post in the interview with the Finance Minister:

 

He said although Thailand's top personal income tax rate is 35%, research shows the effective rate, after accounting for various exemptions and deductions, is only around 10% for those at the top rate, not the full 35%.

Please credit and share this article with others using this link: https://www.bangkokpost.com/business/general/2920475/a-taxing-question. View our policies at http://goo.gl/9HgTd and http://goo.gl/ou6Ip. © Bangkok Post PCL. All rights reserved.

 

Another statement in this article caught my eye:

 

"Mr Pichai also proposed lowering the personal income tax from the current maximum of 35%, mirroring global trends aimed at attracting skilled workers."

 

This suggests to me that he has got his beady eye on all existing TEDA's. How else would he propose making up the shortfall resulting from any reduction in the 35% maximum rate - particularly given the Chulalongkorn economist's assertion that "the government's fiscal burdens have significantly increased"?

 

@chiang mai - incidentally, can the TRD simply vary any TEDA off their own bat? Or would this first necessitate some formal process resulting in, say, publication of revised rates in the Royal Gazette?

 

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, OJAS said:

 

Another statement in this article caught my eye:

 

"Mr Pichai also proposed lowering the personal income tax from the current maximum of 35%, mirroring global trends aimed at attracting skilled workers."

 

This suggests to me that he has got his beady eye on all existing TEDA's. How else would he propose making up the shortfall resulting from any reduction in the 35% maximum rate - particularly given the Chulalongkorn economist's assertion that "the government's fiscal burdens have significantly increased"?

 

@chiang mai - incidentally, can the TRD simply vary any TEDA off their own bat? Or would this first necessitate some formal process resulting in, say, publication of revised rates in the Royal Gazette?

 

There's a discussion currently about changes to TEDA, I've linked the thread below. It appears that TEDA changes can and are made yearly (potentially) based on economic need etc.

 

 

[OJAS]

17 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

There's a discussion currently about changes to TEDA, I've linked the thread below. It appears that TEDA changes can and are made yearly (potentially) based on economic need etc.

 

 

 

So in other words we won't know for certain what TEDA's will apply for 2024 until such time as the TRD see fit to issue their new forms. The extremely leisurely attitude which they seem to be taking to doing this is IMHO a bloody disgrace. Contrast this with the likely enthusiam with which they will no doubt be tackling the task of gleefully dishing out 2,000 THB fines left, right and centre from 1 April 2025 sharp for the late submission of tax returns and the payment of any tax due! 😡

 

[chiang mai]

9 minutes ago, OJAS said:

 

So in other words we won't know for certain what TEDA's will apply for 2024 until such time as the TRD see fit to issue their new forms. The extremely leisurely attitude which they seem to be taking to doing this is IMHO a bloody disgrace. Contrast this with the likely enthusiam with which they will no doubt be tackling the task of gleefully dishing out 2,000 THB fines left, right and centre from 1 April 2025 sharp for the late submission of tax returns and the payment of any tax due! 😡

 

Hand on heart I'm no longer certain about any of this. Some TRD sources show one thing, the tax returns for 2023 show something else so yes, we do need the 2024 tax forms and instructions..

[topt]

24 minutes ago, OJAS said:

Contrast this with the likely enthusiam with which they will no doubt be tackling the task of gleefully dishing out 2,000 THB fines left, right and centre from 1 April 2025 sharp for the late submission of tax returns and the payment of any tax due! 😡

Were you being sarci or vaguely serious?

If the latter then I doubt it very much.

From a purely practical perspective even if only that April would be too soon....... especially as online filing is up to the 7th April or whatever it is..........

 

Does anybody know for certain if they ever filled those extra new 70 posts that were being talked about a year ago?

[chiang mai]

3 minutes ago, topt said:

Were you being sarci or vaguely serious?

If the latter then I doubt it very much.

From a purely practical perspective even if only that April would be too soon....... especially as online filing is up to the 7th April or whatever it is..........

 

Does anybody know for certain if they ever filled those extra new 70 posts that were being talked about a year ago?

I haven't heard any more about it since a member said his wife had applied for one of the positions, I am no longer certain about much of anything on this subject any longer.

[The Cyclist]

6 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

I haven't heard any more about it since a member said his wife had applied for one of the positions, I am no longer certain about much of anything on this subject any longer.

 

Not laughing at you or your post CM.

 

A post I made over a year ago sprang to mind when I read your post, and brought a smile to my face.

[chiang mai]

2 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Not laughing at you or your post CM.

 

A post I made over a year ago sprang to mind when I read your post, and brought a smile to my face.

There was a time when the planets semed to align but not lately. 

[OJAS]

3 hours ago, topt said:

Were you being sarci or vaguely serious?

 

Basically a rant borne out of sheer frustration! I've now made all my remittances to Thailand in the 2024 tax year and calculated the assessable income component (consisting solely of the UK State Pension) based on the 2023 TEDA's. All I need now are details of the 2024 TEDA's to tweak the figuring in my spreadsheet if necessary - plus, of course, the 2024 PND91.

 

I contrast the current uncertainty about TEDA's here with Rachel Reeves' guarantee in her budget statement on 30 October that the existing UK personal tax-free allowance would remain unchanged at £12,570 p.a. until the UK tax year ending on 5 April 2028!

[topt]

57 minutes ago, OJAS said:

Basically a rant borne out of sheer frustration!

Understood 

[jwest10]

16 hours ago, chiang mai said:

There was a time when the planets semed to align but not lately. 

I am just joking in case some get very touchy and the saying "What planet are you on"? Springs to mind.
BTw this morning a Thai friend who files a tax form twice a year as he has his own business and his wife works or knows people who works at the Revenue has stated what forms and just wait and see, if anything is going to be done!!!
Just stating so many times I know and yes he mentioned so few Thais know about tax forms and very few  do not file of course!!!
In addition stated do not worry about it too much and ignore it!!
 

[Ben Zioner]

Just for the anecdote... (Chiang-Maï (San Kamphaeng TRD Office)  

 

 

[chiang mai]

2 hours ago, Ben Zioner said:

Just for the anecdote... (Chiang-Maï (San Kamphaeng TRD Office)  

 

 

See if I understand that correctly:

 

1 - If your country has a DTA, there's no need to file a return.

 

2 - If an agency or government department wants to see one, you must file....does this mean the TRD may want to see one?

 

3 - Income imported into Thailand, calculated according to the Thai method. Does this means remittances that are assessable according to the TRD rules and the DTA rules?

 

They looks like circular rules.

[Ben Zioner]

49 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

See if I understand that correctly:

 

1 - If your country has a DTA, there's no need to file a return.

 

2 - If an agency or government department wants to see one, you must file....does this mean the TRD may want to see one?

 

3 - Income imported into Thailand, calculated according to the Thai method. Does this means remittances that are assessable according to the TRD rules and the DTA rules?

 

They looks like circular rules.

Just reveals the state of confusion of some RD offices. Glad I have nothing to file until 2026, at least.

[jwest10]

2 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

Just reveals the state of confusion of some RD offices. Glad I have nothing to file until 2026, at least.

Just to let you know and was expecting some questions on this so-called tax issue for 2024 on my 90-day reporting today and got my new date for March 2025 and asked one question can I do this as per last year 30 days in advance.

Yes I also saw my Thai friend this morning who was asking me about forms and yes his wife who knows someone who works at the Revenue  again told not to worry about filing and do not worry as it seems there is no concrete or anything official from this so-called Government and it appears that there is wide opinions on this and many not going to do anything.
 

[chiang mai]

11 hours ago, Ben Zioner said:

Just reveals the state of confusion of some RD offices. Glad I have nothing to file until 2026, at least.

You may want to keep a weather eye on future deductions and allowances which appear to be more variable year on year than I had previously understood. It appears they are altered, based on the current state of the economy and were increased quite substantially during covid. It would not be unreasonable to think they will revert to the longer term norm, once the economy is functioning better. This means that a foreigner's liability to tax is impacted not only by remittance levels but also by exchange rates and current TEDA.,

[Ben Zioner]

22 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

You may want to keep a weather eye on future deductions and allowances which appear to be more variable year on year than I had previously understood. It appears they are altered, based on the current state of the economy and were increased quite substantially during covid. It would not be unreasonable to think they will revert to the longer term norm, once the economy is functioning better. This means that a foreigner's liability to tax is impacted not only by remittance levels but also by exchange rates and current TEDA.,

Not if one doesn't remit any money earned after Dec 31, 2023, or holds an LTR visa.

[jwest10]

18 hours ago, Ben Zioner said:

Just reveals the state of confusion of some RD offices. Glad I have nothing to file until 2026, at least.

Yes as yet we all know the forms PND90 and 91 and Income Exemption Form are not out and wonder if they ever will as it appears the Government are at loggerheads with each other and yes we have all seen the old ones and which none of us have used before but even trying to understand it all as the forms as they were are not easy.
I have been told again by my local Revenue Department today 19 Dec I do not need to fill a form up and they stated what new forms??? 

[aldriglikvid]

Somewhat interesting stats this morning from Maybank: 

Of 37 million employed approx. only 4 million pay tax. Furthermore, the real estate tax here is only symbolic in nature and almost doesn't contribute to the total revenue. These are two low hanging fruits, in my opinion, rather than going on a convoluted chase of foreigners international transfers. 

[jwest10]

10 minutes ago, aldriglikvid said:

Somewhat interesting stats this morning from Maybank: 

Of 37 million employed approx. only 4 million pay tax. Furthermore, the real estate tax here is only symbolic in nature and almost doesn't contribute to the total revenue. These are two low hanging fruits, in my opinion, rather than going on a convoluted chase of foreigners international transfers. 

Wow thanks for all of that aldriglikvid and  Maybank can I ask who they are please?

 

[jwest10]

1 minute ago, jwest10 said:

Wow thanks for all of that aldriglikvid and  Maybank can I ask who they are please?

 

Yes a financial services group for SE Asia but thanks again

 

[stat]

12 hours ago, Ben Zioner said:

Not if one doesn't remit any money earned after Dec 31, 2023, or holds an LTR visa.

Correct! Just one further point: if you are not a tax resident in a given year for example 2024 you can remit millions in 2024 and use them in 2025 without incurring any tax IMHO. Maybe they will check if they were taxed somewhere but I doubt it.

[redwood1]

On 12/19/2024 at 12:53 PM, aldriglikvid said:

Somewhat interesting stats this morning from Maybank: 

Of 37 million employed approx. only 4 million pay tax. Furthermore, the real estate tax here is only symbolic in nature and almost doesn't contribute to the total revenue. These are two low hanging fruits, in my opinion, rather than going on a convoluted chase of foreigners international transfers. 

 

Has any one here made note on the amount of taxes a farang pays on a condo per year? If they pay at all?.......Its like 100 baht a year or some other very very very low amount.........Real estate taxes in Thailand seem to me to be insanely low compared to the west.....

If they ever decided to get the Real estate taxes working in Thailand they would bring in many Trillions of baht......

 

Taxing retired expats living off a fixed pensions would have to be the most unproductive and fruitless tax raising idea possible.....They will not raise jack from expats.....I mean like almost zero money.....

[aldriglikvid]

4 hours ago, redwood1 said:

 

Has any one here made note on the amount of taxes a farang pays on a condo per year? If they pay at all?.......Its like 100 baht a year or some other very very very low amount.........Real estate taxes in Thailand seem to me to be insanely low compared to the west.....

If they ever decided to get the Real estate taxes working in Thailand they would bring in many Trillions of baht......

 

Taxing retired expats living off a fixed pensions would have to be the most unproductive and fruitless tax raising idea possible.....They will not raise jack from expats.....I mean like almost zero money.....

Essentially all societies (Europe, Japan, Canada, Korea, etc.) that have built a rigid social safety net (healthcare, education, elderly care, etc.)  tax fixed assets as it's impossible to move and low administration to tax. Also, since it's an actual piece of the land in the aforementioned country it also makes sense on a philosophical level. 

To continue not taxing fixed assets, and to continue only taxing 4 out of 37 million working people - just to make it all up by the very burdensome route of taxing foreigners international transfers just doesn't make any sense to me. That's why I believe either this will be a "nothingburger" (i.e. self reporting with very few controls) or an absolute smash to Thailand as an expat destination. 

Rest assured, not a single Russian, Chinese or Indian (their 3 top tourists) will self report any tax on international transfers this coming spring. Not one. 

[BeastOfBodmin]

7 hours ago, redwood1 said:

Taxing retired expats living off a fixed pensions would have to be the most unproductive and fruitless tax raising idea possible.....They will not raise jack from expats.....I mean like almost zero money.....

They may even lose money by running this "revenue raising" operation.