CAM Fee massive 43% increase for zero extra benefit

[john donson]

I was stupid enough to buy an older condo

 

previous owner and agent informed me of 35 baht / square meter a few weeks ago

 

now apparently, not even 2 months later, juristic office announce an increase of 43%

 

mind, they additionally added an 2000 baht extra fee from august till november for maintenance, agreed by owners before I bought

 

wait, I thought CAM fees were to maintain the building, etc...

 

parking for 1 car, not included, if you come here late, you cannot even park your car, everything is double parked both sides

 

fitness is 50 baht per time, previous owner pretended it was included, and where is it not, right ?

 

cherry on top of my s.hitcake... previous owner did not pay their last cam fees, but magically the juristic office still delivered them a paper that apparently land office needed to clear any outstanding debt...

 

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh... if only I would have rented... but I thought, long term, it might have made sense financially... 

 

rant over...

 

 

 

 

[Celsius]

Just like a bargirl you're stuck with her forever.

 

Massive Positive - at least you didn't built a house in Isaan.

[scubascuba3]

You should have checked the minutes for the last AGM and annual accounts, also checked with the office about outstanding debt and yes old condos will be increasing their common fees eventually or just have supplementary fees every year (both discussed at the AGM).

 

The other thing about older condos is there will be a high number of refurbs going on meaning noise 

[OneMoreFarang]

25 minutes ago, john donson said:

I was stupid enough to buy an older condo

 

The first part is correct. But don't blame the condo.

You didn't inform yourself.

[MangoKorat]

36 minutes ago, Celsius said:

Massive Positive - at least you didn't built a house in Isaan.

And why's that?

 

I bought a house in Isaan - great location - 2.5 hours from Bangkok and no Thai wife.

 

Had it 10 years this month, no monthly fees, on site car parking, maintenance I do when necessary, no committees, normal electricity and water fees + its doubled in value, not that I have any intention of selling it.

 

Do it right, you're absolutely fine - buy one with your Thai wife on 'family land' in the village, then yes, I tend to agree. Just renenber, we are not all 'lovesick puppies' building that 'rural idyll, dream house' in Nakhion Nowhere with our 'teerak'.

[OneMoreFarang]

2 hours ago, scubascuba3 said:

old condos will be increasing their common fees eventually

And that make sense so that they have money to do necessary repairs and renovations.

Old building which are in need of repair are a much bigger problem.

[newnative]

       Buying a condo--anywhere--is usually a big investment--at least it is for me.  As others have said, you should have done better checking of this project before you purchased.  That would include checking the AGM meeting minutes, checking the financials, checking the swimming pool and gym, checking the general condition of the project, making trips to the project both in the daytime and at night, and interviewing some residents, if possible.  Doing these things should have alerted you, at the minimum, to the impending rise in condo fees, the parking problem, and the fee to use the gym.

      I certainly would not pay the delinquent fees the previous owner owed and I would let the Juristic know that they made an error in producing the debt-free letter when the condo was not debt-free.  Show your closing paperwork indicating the date when you took possession of the condo and let it be known that you will only be paying condo fees from that date forward.  Don't be afraid to make a stink--either with the juristic, with the condo board, or, if necessary, at the next AGM.  Or, all of them, if necessary.  

      The rise in condo fees is not necessarily a bad thing.  Many older projects have condo fees that are way too low to properly maintain the project.  Either fees are raised or the project slides downhill. 

     At the last older condo project I owned at, the condo fee was too low to maintain the project in the style the residents were accustomed to.  Rather than raise the condo fee, which I think was 40 baht/sqm, there was a special assessment each year I owned there to cover the shortfall.  The shortfall special assessment added to the regular condo fee translated to a total condo fee of around 60 baht/sqm., depending on that year's special assessment amount.   I was happy to pay the special assessment because the condo was a big investment for me and I wanted to protect my investment.   

[JeffersLos]

A total BS and troll story. 

 

4 hours ago, john donson said:

previous owner did not pay their last cam fees, but magically the juristic office still delivered them a paper that apparently land office needed to clear any outstanding debt...

 

Which you would still have copies of, and would get them removed from office, if it was actually true. 🙄

[Liverpool Lou]

4 hours ago, MangoKorat said:

I bought a house in Isaan - great location - 2.5 hours from Bangkok and no Thai wife.

 

Which route did you choose to be able to buy a house in your own name?  

[Celsius]

50 minutes ago, Liverpool Lou said:

Which route did you choose to be able to buy a house in your own name?  

 

which is also 2.5 hours from Bangkok.....in Isaan

[scubascuba3]

8 hours ago, newnative said:

Rather than raise the condo fee, which I think was 40 baht/sqm, there was a special assessment each year I owned there to cover the shortfall.  The shortfall special assessment added to the regular condo fee translated to a total condo fee of around 60 baht/sqm., 

The problem with supplementary fees rather than increased common fees is they aren't included if someone is taken to court for non payment, the advantage is it gives buyers the impression common fees are lower than they actually are

[bigt3116]

6 hours ago, Celsius said:

 

which is also 2.5 hours from Bangkok.....in Isaan

 

Korat is only about 2 hours from BKK, and some places in Isaan are even closer.

[SAFETY FIRST]

12 hours ago, john donson said:

I thought CAM fees were to maintain the building, etc

What is CAM, do you mean Juristic fees?

 

12 hours ago, john donson said:

parking for 1 car, not included, 

 

fitness is 50 baht per time 

 

previous owner did not pay their last cam fees, but magically the juristic office still delivered them a paper that apparently land office

 

No way, these guys are skimming the till, charge for gym, car parking. 

I don't believe the Juristic management released ready to sell document to land office with outstanding fees owing. 

 

[john donson]

11 hours ago, JeffersLos said:

A total BS and troll story. 

 

 

Which you would still have copies of, and would get them removed from office, if it was actually true. 🙄

 

thank you for the troll comment... the agent or old owner got that juristic paper that apparently the land department needed or the transfer of the title could not be done... I did not get a copy of that as I read it was up to the previous owner to get that piece of paperwork ...

[scubascuba3]

9 minutes ago, john donson said:

 

thank you for the troll comment... the agent or old owner got that juristic paper that apparently the land department needed or the transfer of the title could not be done... I did not get a copy of that as I read it was up to the previous owner to get that piece of paperwork ...

You should have got a copy before buying

[MangoKorat]

On 9/30/2024 at 3:31 PM, Liverpool Lou said:

Which route did you choose to be able to buy a house in your own name?  

How I own my house is my business and I'm not about to post how on here - inviting all the armchair lawyers to tell me I'm wrong. I most certainly didn't use the company route though.

 

What I will say is that I've had the house for 10 years this month and I'm perfectly happy that I can do what I want with it - including sell it. All done in a lawyer's office with witnesses present.

[MangoKorat]

On 9/30/2024 at 4:22 PM, Celsius said:

 

which is also 2.5 hours from Bangkok.....in Isaan

Geography is clearly not your strong point.  There are differing accounts of Isaan's borders but it is generally held that it begins around Muak Lek.  My house between Khao Yai and Pak Chong is certainly well within Isaan's territory.

[MangoKorat]

20 hours ago, bigt3116 said:

 

Korat is only about 2 hours from BKK, and some places in Isaan are even closer.

By what? Rocket? You'd be hard pressed to get to Korat city in 2 hours from Bangkok - even with clear roads and a Ferrari. The speed limit is 80 kmh most of the way and its well camera'd.

 

However, my place is in Nakhon Ratchasima (Korat) province - on a good day I do Suvarnabhumi to home in around 2.5 hours including a coffee and fag stop. Korat city is another 45 minutes, at least

 

Two hours may be possible to my place if they ever get around to finishing the M6 and its claimed that the new High Speed Train will take just 55 minutes to Pak Chong - an hour and 15 minutes to Korat I'm told.

[Liverpool Lou]

19 hours ago, MangoKorat said:

How I own my house is my business and I'm not about to post how on here - inviting all the armchair lawyers to tell me I'm wrong. I most certainly didn't use the company route though.

 

What I will say is that I've had the house for 10 years this month and I'm perfectly happy that I can do what I want with it - including sell it. All done in a lawyer's office with witnesses present.

Well, excuse me for asking about a claim that you posted on a public forum that would be of interest to a lot of foreigners!   

[MangoKorat]

20 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

Well, excuse me for asking about a claim that you posted on a public forum that would be of interest to a lot of foreigners!   

You're excused. 😁

[scubascuba3]

On 10/2/2024 at 12:45 AM, MangoKorat said:

How I own my house is my business and I'm not about to post how on here - inviting all the armchair lawyers to tell me I'm wrong. I most certainly didn't use the company route though.

 

What I will say is that I've had the house for 10 years this month and I'm perfectly happy that I can do what I want with it - including sell it. All done in a lawyer's office with witnesses present.

Sounds illegal

[MangoKorat]

20 hours ago, Liverpool Lou said:

Well, excuse me for asking about a claim that you posted on a public forum that would be of interest to a lot of foreigners!   

A Usufruct gives you the right to live in and fully enjoy the use of a property until you die. A Power of Attorney, stating that the registered owner of the property conveys the right to sell the property and retain the proceeds - does just that. The POA needs to be correctly written by a competent lawyer and witnessed.

 

For those that are married and  wanting to protect their investment, the best method I've seen is to get your wife to agree to you taking a mortgage/legal charge out over the property.  Not all Land Offices will accept a mortgage in a foreign name - mine will. To prevent future problems, anyone going down that route should probably insert a clause that cancels the charge upon your death.

 

Alternately, the company route is not illegal if that company is actually trading and can show a reason for owning land/property.  Most company 'owned' houses though, are completely illegal.

 

Using a POA as I described above is legal because it does not convey ownership of the land which as we know, is against the Thai Land Law. The owner remains the same. What they've given over is their financial interest in the property.

[MangoKorat]

7 minutes ago, scubascuba3 said:

Sounds illegal

See why I didn't want to put it in print now?

[soi3eddie]

On 9/30/2024 at 10:33 AM, scubascuba3 said:

You should have checked the minutes for the last AGM and annual accounts, also checked with the office about outstanding debt and yes old condos will be increasing their common fees eventually or just have supplementary fees every year (both discussed at the AGM).

 

The other thing about older condos is there will be a high number of refurbs going on meaning noise 

 

Friend of mine in Bangkok, has been looking for a condo for last 10 years. Every time he finds somewhere he likes (either new or resale), there is some kind of issue that means he's not happy to proceed. A few times, it has been the refusal by the seller (either the owner or developer) to supply accounts and AGM report. Many "new" places are unsold units. This means that the developer should have been paying the CAM Fees - but are likely not. 

 

The OP's @john donson lawyer, when he purchased, should have checked on ther situation regarding unpaid CAM fees etc. Or, did the OP actually use a lawyer?

 

 

[soi3eddie]

On 9/30/2024 at 2:08 PM, newnative said:

      The rise in condo fees is not necessarily a bad thing.  Many older projects have condo fees that are way too low to properly maintain the project.  Either fees are raised or the project slides downhill. 

     At the last older condo project I owned at, the condo fee was too low to maintain the project in the style the residents were accustomed to.  Rather than raise the condo fee, which I think was 40 baht/sqm, there was a special assessment each year I owned there to cover the shortfall.  The shortfall special assessment added to the regular condo fee translated to a total condo fee of around 60 baht/sqm., depending on that year's special assessment amount.   I was happy to pay the special assessment because the condo was a big investment for me and I wanted to protect my investment.

 

Totally agree. Same for me. Our condo fee, for 99 units on 8 floors, has not been increased since 2010 (55 Baht/SqM). Each year, we now get the special assessment. That's fine, however I have stated in AGM's that we should increase the annual fees. The other owners and board told me that this is how it's done in Thailand. At least, with our condo, there's no non-payment so it gets maintained well. Although they have put off exterior re-painting for the last couple of years.

 

[scubascuba3]

12 minutes ago, soi3eddie said:

 

Friend of mine in Bangkok, has been looking for a condo for last 10 years. Every time he finds somewhere he likes (either new or resale), there is some kind of issue that means he's not happy to proceed. A few times, it has been the refusal by the seller (either the owner or developer) to supply accounts and AGM report. Many "new" places are unsold units. This means that the developer should have been paying the CAM Fees - but are likely not. 

 

The OP's @john donson lawyer, when he purchased, should have checked on ther situation regarding unpaid CAM fees etc. Or, did the OP actually use a lawyer?

 

 

You don't need a lawyer for that, office issues a letter that there is no debt, it's just a case of seeing a copy. Office also supplies AGM minutes and accounts

[Henryford]

In my condo you need a letter from the Juristic Office confirming the condo is debt free (of common fees) before it can go to the Land Office for sale. Isn't that the first thing any buyer would check?

 

In answer to soi3eddie - even if these are unsold new units if the developer has not paid their CAM fees the unit can not be sold.

[CanadaSam]

On 10/3/2024 at 4:27 PM, MangoKorat said:

Using a POA as I described above is legal

 

Sure.  POA & Usufruct is workable, but far from foolproof.

 

Hope you are aware that the actual owner can sell the place anytime for a bargain price, by making the buyer aware of the arrangement, who would only need to wait for you to pass away before moving into his heavily discounted home?

[KhunLA]

1 hour ago, CanadaSam said:

 

Sure.  POA & Usufruct is workable, but far from foolproof.

 

Hope you are aware that the actual owner can sell the place anytime for a bargain price, by making the buyer aware of the arrangement, who would only need to wait for you to pass away before moving into his heavily discounted home?

That's going to be 'land office' dependent.  Udon Thani PLO, wouldn't transfer land until I signed off my usufructs.   Muang PKK is the same.  Wouldn't even allow the owner to modify the house, without my permission, which I thought was kind of cool.  Owner is my wife 

 

Another way to protect one's house investment, that is in the law, and if you are given the right to sublease.  They will not transfer anything, if it affects a 3rd party, or so I read.  Good for those that do the 30 year lease thing, and can't be cancelled as will affect a 3rd party.  A wife, ex wife, can cancel a lease, 1 year after divorce.

 

I had success with POA, selling first house.  But true what you state, Thai owner could simply sell on the cheap to family or friend, and simply wait to you die, and possibly, rush that possibility.   After I threw the wife out, I was looking over my shoulder the first month, for any full faced MB riders coming up from behind ... 

[MangoKorat]

15 hours ago, CanadaSam said:

 

Sure.  POA & Usufruct is workable, but far from foolproof.

 

Hope you are aware that the actual owner can sell the place anytime for a bargain price, by making the buyer aware of the arrangement, who would only need to wait for you to pass away before moving into his heavily discounted home?

They cannot. My Usufuct is worded in such a way that the registered owner has to show that they have notifified me that they intend to sell the property.  In addition, most Thai's won't touch a house with a Usufruct on it - banks certainly won't lend on them. I trust my lawyer knows what they are doing but I have checked at the land office to see if there have been any changes - over 10 years now and no changes or enquiries about the property. I have no worries.

 

I also hold the Channote - whilst not impossible to replace it is far from an easy task. The registered owner thinks its impossible to replace them.