Thailand's Expats Urged to Register with TRD for Tax, Says Expert

[stigar]

3 hours ago, sambum said:

I think what's next is that all those wealthy people that Thailand was hoping to attract will be saying "No Thanks" and take their money and custom elsewhere,  and the Government will be trying to find a way to squeeze more money out of the people that are here already. Ring any bells?

Having spoken to a few of my "bar stool lawyers", quite a few of them have said that they pay UK tax  on their pensions already, which is almost the lowest in Europe anyway. They also have their pensions "frozen" by the British Government,(no annual increments) because they live in Thailand, so you can imagine the plans that are being made and talked about should the Thai government try to tax them on money that they have already been taxed on anyway!!! And don't expect them to be hopping in and out of the country every 6 months - many of them are too old to "hop" anywhere! 

So, Thailand will lose out on all the revenue that the wealthy  people/businessmen would have been bringing in to the country, and also losing the income generated by the ex pat community - many of whom kept the small family businesses of this country going when Covid was rampant.

 

And then the "blame game" will start!

I brougth my exwife and our 2 kids to my country 18 years ago. I never regret that.Im often in thailand but just as a legal tourist. I only rent when im there..easy just to checkout and no headache after i went back home.I choose to not have a gf or wife again. I love my freedom without no problems.

I build a house in surin long time ago..paid only 360.000 baht that time.Not a big loss.

Now my exwife and our kids work here and make good money and everybody is happy. I will never ever invest anything in thailand again. Not because i cant..its because i dont want. 

 

[norsurin]

4 hours ago, sambum said:

I think what's next is that all those wealthy people that Thailand was hoping to attract will be saying "No Thanks" and take their money and custom elsewhere,  and the Government will be trying to find a way to squeeze more money out of the people that are here already. Ring any bells?

Having spoken to a few of my "bar stool lawyers", quite a few of them have said that they pay UK tax  on their pensions already, which is almost the lowest in Europe anyway. They also have their pensions "frozen" by the British Government,(no annual increments) because they live in Thailand, so you can imagine the plans that are being made and talked about should the Thai government try to tax them on money that they have already been taxed on anyway!!! And don't expect them to be hopping in and out of the country every 6 months - many of them are too old to "hop" anywhere! 

So, Thailand will lose out on all the revenue that the wealthy  people/businessmen would have been bringing in to the country, and also losing the income generated by the ex pat community - many of whom kept the small family businesses of this country going when Covid was rampant.

 

And then the "blame game" will start!

Dont invest more then u can afford to loose.

[Yumthai]

1 hour ago, chiang mai said:

Some people want a track record with the Revenue to show they are following the rules and to demonstrate they are small fry in the tax world and the world of remittances to Thailand.

The risk is that these law abiding tax return filers could be seen as and only as fish (of any size) TRD can easily catch and audit, unlike the other fish they're not aware of. Knowing Thai people and how things work in this country I assess this risk way higher than being randomly audited.

[simeone]

no need to register anything now, just waiting next two or three years.

[anrcaccount]

4 hours ago, chiang mai said:

4 hours ago, anrcaccount said:

No, not "lots" of expats have filed Thai tax returns. It's actually very, very few, as a % proportion. 

 

The vast majority of those using the income method for their visas have never filed a Thai tax return, despite many technically breaching the laws, for many years, with zero consequences.

 

IMO, next year will be no different. 

 

 

 

And your proof of these things is where?

 

You don't need proof that the sky is blue. Some things are self evident.

 

It's beyond any reasonable doubt that the vast majority of expats don't even have a TIN, and have never filed a Thai tax return.

 

As the #1 most prolific tax poster on the forum, you should be clear on this by now. 

[chiang mai]

Just now, anrcaccount said:

 

You don't need proof that the sky is blue. Some things are self evident.

 

It's beyond any reasonable doubt that the vast majority of expats don't even have a TIN, and have never filed a Thai tax return.

 

As the #1 most prolific tax poster on the forum, you should be clear on this by now. 

Yes I do need proof, where is it, or are you just guessing and saying things that have no basis in fact?

[EVENKEEL]

1 hour ago, MartinBangkok said:

This is exactly what is going to happen. Next year when you go to renew your visa, they will show you your world wide income, or at least income from your home country, thanks to the new global reporting.

 

The message will be: You owe us this much, and you have to pay now. If not we will not renew your visa, and until you pay we will put you in the immigration detention center.

 

Trust me. This will be close to the truth.

Please walk me through this. When I renew my extension at Immigration they will have access to my taxes from my home country automatically? And, they will then detain me till I pay?  I'm speechless.

[Yumthai]

12 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

14 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

 

You don't need proof that the sky is blue. Some things are self evident.

 

It's beyond any reasonable doubt that the vast majority of expats don't even have a TIN, and have never filed a Thai tax return.

 

As the #1 most prolific tax poster on the forum, you should be clear on this by now. 

Expand  

Yes I do need proof, where is it, or are you just guessing and saying things that have no basis in fact?

The number of tax residents in Thailand who file and pay tax is low, far away from the majority.

It's not irrational to think the same proportion (if not lower considering expats unawareness) applies to the foreigner residents community.

[sungod]

1 hour ago, MartinBangkok said:

This is exactly what is going to happen. Next year when you go to renew your visa, they will show you your world wide income, or at least income from your home country, thanks to the new global reporting.

 

The message will be: You owe us this much, and you have to pay now. If not we will not renew your visa, and until you pay we will put you in the immigration detention center.

 

Trust me. This will be close to the truth.

 

You are in the wrong sub forum, you need to be in the 'what are you smoking now?'

[chiang mai]

15 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

The number of tax residents in Thailand who file and pay tax is low, far away from the majority.

It's not irrational to think the same proportion (if not lower considering expats unawareness) applies to the foreigner residents community.

Yes it is irrational to think that! Only 25% of the Thai workforce file tax returns, the rest don't because they don't earn enough to pay tax. Resident foreigners on the other hand, ALL earn more than the tax threshold, by virtue of the amounts required for their visa's, ergo, I would expect the percentage of expats who file returns to be much higher, especially under the new rules. 

[cdnvic]

Off topic post removed.

[redwood1]

12 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Yes it is irrational to think that! Only 25% of the Thai workforce file tax returns, the rest don't because they don't earn enough to pay tax. Resident foreigners on the other hand, ALL earn more than the tax threshold, by virtue of the amounts required for their visa's, ergo, I would expect the percentage of expats who file returns to be much higher, especially under the new rules. 

 

You have lost your mind if you think the Chinese Russians or Indians will be filing....Its just not going to happen EVER...

 

As a matter of fact the only people who will be filing are a few farang hand wringers...

 

You can take that to be bank...

Edited November 7 by redwood1

[Seeall]

11 hours ago, mfd101 said:

I have a TIN registered here in Prasat, Surin province. Forced upon me by my OZ bank as all banks increasingly everywhere are obliged by governments to conform to the internationally agreed rules..

 

I propose in February to visit the 2 helpful young ladies I dealt with at the local TRD, with my recently completed and approved Oz tax return for the Oz financial year July23-June24, plus the Oz/Thai double tax agreement (which - in tortured English - makes it (almost) clear that my Oz Federal Govt superannuation can be taxed only in Oz).

 

All in English. They will need to check their Thai version of the DTA and we'll see how things head on from there ...

 

I'm expecting that (1) if they can cope with the workload, the result will be 'Go away & don't come back, ever' or (2) if they can't cope with the workload, the result will be 'It's all too hard, go away & don't come back, ever'.

Yes, it is all fun and jokes until you get a bill you have to pay, because they are incompetent of working it out correctly. This has happened many times in many places. They just slap on whatever they think because they don't know how to do it. That's not funny at all.

[chiang mai]

5 minutes ago, redwood1 said:

 

You have lost your mind if you think the Chinese Russians or Indians will be filing....Its just not going to happen EVER...

 

As a matter of fact the only people who will be filing are a few farang hand wringers...

 

You can take that to be bank...

I'm not particularly interested in what the Chinese, Indians or Russians do but I am interested in what forum members do. And since a majority of those members are Westerners, I think their behaviour is likely to be very different to say the Chinese, Indians and Russians. Married Western expats who have homes here, retired and with families, those people are more likely to file than not, because it's part of their security and also their culture.

[sambum]

1 hour ago, norsurin said:

Dont invest more then u can afford to loose.

Very true!

[JackGats]

4 hours ago, JimGant said:

Has merit -- why? Why put yourself in TRD files as a tax filer -- when no taxes are owed? Probably (I hope) such a filing would go in the trash bin, as generating no interest, and no revenue. But, worst case -- you're now in the data base, and as such, they'll now expect an annual tax filing (even it it's another brain-dead nil filing) -- and if they don't get one, they'll investigate.

 

No, only an idiot would file a nil tax return -- and put themselves on the radar screen for future tax filings.

Maybe the person you call an idiot needs a tax return to show to the tax man or the bank back home should they ask. A nil tax return is not such a bad proposition.

[James9999]

14 hours ago, Aussie999 said:

Question 1... does saving count as income if transferred from overseas account into a Thai account.. technically savings are not income.

Question 2... how do you get around the 160 day limit.

Good question. Pension from the UK is already taxed. An ISA is a savings account and it tax free in the UK and is not income. How would the Thais treat remittance from an ISA account. Just going to Thailand at a tourist is looking much better and less hassle.

[scottiejohn]

2 hours ago, chiang mai said:

Resident foreigners on the other hand, ALL earn more than the tax threshold, by virtue of the amounts required for their visa's,

Please explain that comment!

It makes no sense!

e.g. What has the cost of a visa, mostly  bought many years ago by those on extensions, which only cost 1900Bht, got to do with this? 

 

Or how does that apply to those with the 800,000 in the bank that has been deposited for years?

 

PS; I understand it may have implications with those on the monthly income method!

Edited November 7 by scottiejohn

[Srikcir]

5 hours ago, Sheryl said:

Last time I filled out form to get interest witholding back it led to 2 full days of inquisition at provincial tax office  and having to submit copious documentation going back many years. My replies were definitly not consideted  sufficient. ... and that was back before the  rule about remittances was modified. 

Last year I looked into getting refund on tax withheld on interest from a Thai savings account. I've had a tax ID for several years but made no use of it (just got it for the experience). Long story short, the bank wanted me to fill out a US IRS federal form that reveals all my income taxed in the US. Not to be submitted to the bank but to a private company allegedly working for the bank (bank people seemed unknowing about the private company) .  So in my mind any illegal exposure of my personal US tax information could not be attributed to the bank relative to suing the bank for releasing my personal data to unauthorized bank contacts. As the interest withheld was typically 200 baht against interest income of generally 1,300 it wasn't worth revealing my US tax filings. I'll just eat the tax.

PS: I hold a LTR visa for wealthy retired individuals which does not tax foreign income. So happy to "donate" to Thailand 200 baht annually.

[chiang mai]

1 hour ago, scottiejohn said:

Please explain that comment!

It makes no sense!

e.g. What has the cost of a visa, mostly  bought many years ago by those on extensions, which only cost 1900Bht, got to do with this? 

 

Or how does that apply to those with the 800,000 in the bank that has been deposited for years?

 

PS; I understand it may have implications with those on the monthly income method!

All are required to hold 400k/800k in the bank each year, the tax filing/threshold is 60k....The vast majority of foreigners earn/spend in excess of that each year.

Edited November 7 by chiang mai

[skytrooper70]

20 hours ago, proton said:

No thanks, and any tax return forms will go in the bin. No taxation without representation, or at least something back for it.

This isn't about the American Revolution. If you want Thai representation, become a citizen and you'll get to vote. Otherwise, remain a visitor and follow the rules, including paying taxes, just as Green Card Holders must do, in the US. 

[daveAustin]

10 hours ago, stigar said:

I brougth my exwife and our 2 kids to my country 18 years ago. I never regret that.Im often in thailand but just as a legal tourist. I only rent when im there..easy just to checkout and no headache after i went back home.I choose to not have a gf or wife again. I love my freedom without no problems.

I build a house in surin long time ago..paid only 360.000 baht that time.Not a big loss.

Now my exwife and our kids work here and make good money and everybody is happy. I will never ever invest anything in thailand again. Not because i cant..its because i dont want. 

 

Guys, they do not care about either of you. In fact, these b’stards will make policy to get you out and walk in your country smiling. Just play the 180 game or get the F outta dodge. Let the Ruskies have it 👍

[daveAustin]

1 hour ago, skytrooper70 said:

This isn't about the American Revolution. If you want Thai representation, become a citizen and you'll get to vote. Otherwise, remain a visitor and follow the rules, including paying taxes, just as Green Card Holders must do, in the US. 

Become a Thai citizen? 😂

How long will that take, and to what end? One could recite the anthem, speak all of it and know all of history, but one is still a lowly foreigner. You’re way out of you’re depth, dude!

[thailand49]

11 hours ago, chiang mai said:

There is no discussion and there is no vote, the rule change was made effective 1 January 2024, it's all been done and dusted and is now in effect.

Then I guess all the articles this year and recent is all fake news.

If It was truly effective we would have to had file first Q of this year.

 

 

 

 

[chiang mai]

20 minutes ago, thailand49 said:

Then I guess all the articles this year and recent is all fake news.

If It was truly effective we would have to had file first Q of this year.

 

 

 

 

Hmmm, you appear to not understand how the tax system works!

 

2024, this year, is the tax year. During this year, tax payer income and revenue is measured which is then reported, NEXT year during first quarter. 

 

Please feel free to ask questions, if this is too confusing.

 

 

[scottiejohn]

6 hours ago, chiang mai said:

All are required to hold 400k/800k in the bank each year, the tax filing/threshold is 60k....The vast majority of foreigners earn/spend in excess of that each year.

Are you saying that you are taxed on the money held in a Thai bank account for many years and if so how often is it taxed?

[chiang mai]

Just now, scottiejohn said:

Are you saying that you are taxed on the money held in a Thai bank account for many years and if so how often is it taxed?

Er no, I'm not saying that at all.

 

Expats are required to hold between 400k and 800k per year in a bank account, in order to qualify for a visa. The amount is indicative of the cost to live here for a year and by all accounts isn't too far off the mark. That means, each expat earns/spend between 400k/800k per year to live in Thailand, I know I spend in that range and many others do also.

 

So whereas the average Thai income is only around 15k per month or 180k per year, the average foreigner on long stay has annual income of between 400k/800k.....I'm guessing when I say I think the average is closer to 800k.

 

Ergo, foreigners have income, on average, at least three times as much as the average Thai. and this is well above the tax filing threshold, even after TEDA (deductions/allowances) is taken into account.

[chiang mai]

11 hours ago, anrcaccount said:

 

You don't need proof that the sky is blue. Some things are self evident.

 

It's beyond any reasonable doubt that the vast majority of expats don't even have a TIN, and have never filed a Thai tax return.

 

Your anecdotal evidence that only a few foreigners file tax returns in Thailand is based on the fact only a few AN members have admitted to doing so and I am one of them. You are misguided if you think that the AN membership includes a majority of foreigners in Thailand or is truly representative of them.

 

My anecdotal evidence is fueled by my annual visits to the TRD office to file a return, a journey that you appear not to make, and the sight of other foreigners doing exactly as I was doing.

 

So no, it is not self evident that only a few foreigners file Thai taxes, which is far far far from beyond reasonable doubt, especially since so many foreigners rely on their monthly pension income, to qualify for their long stay visa, using the income method..

 

[gk10012001]

The USA will NOT release your 1040 complete tax forms to Thailand.  Now, if you yourself do end up having to report to Thailand all your tax records that is a different kettle of fish.  I would not trust Thailand with such information,  It will be interesting to see exactly how this tax reporting, assessing works and how Thailand will regulate or mediate it as there will be disputes over what is covered what is not covered, what is excluded, etc..

[chiang mai]

7 minutes ago, gk10012001 said:

The USA will NOT release your 1040 complete tax forms to Thailand.  Now, if you yourself do end up having to report to Thailand all your tax records that is a different kettle of fish.  I would not trust Thailand with such information,  It will be interesting to see exactly how this tax reporting, assessing works and how Thailand will regulate or mediate it as there will be disputes over what is covered what is not covered, what is excluded, etc..

The TRD is not going to ask the IRS for your 1040, it's down to you to provide it, if it is even needed at all.

 

The Dual Tax Agreements are fairly clear as to who has primary taxation rights over which income, that is the main purpose of a DTA.