Is Putin Truly Ready to Push the Nuclear Button? Washington calls Moscow's bluff

[pattayasan]

4 minutes ago, billd766 said:

Whilst I sort of agree with you, ANY nuclear strike by Russia on any NATP country (should) be followed by a massive nuclear strike and make Russia uninhabitable for the majority of the population. 

 

I can see 2 big problems.

 

1   Putin is quite old and may come to the conclusion that he will die soon anyway, so why not take the nuclear option and many millions more people with him?

 

2   The other problem is that with Trump taking over in the USA, nobody has any idea (probably Trump also) what the US response will be.

 

The US will probably try to remain neutral, until the US forces are attacked directly on the ground, at sea or on the US mainland.

 

That will be a major problem for Trump. Whether to aid his allies or his enemies.

 

It may also cause a problem in the Middle East between Israel and all the Arab states around them, which may also go nuclear.

 

A nuke in Ukraine would likely invoke a nuclear response but it's unlikely to come from the US.

[billd766]

12 minutes ago, pattayasan said:

 

I agreed with everything until "would be prepared to use them". The consequences for Russia would be incalculable.

But do you think that Putin really cares about that?

[pattayasan]

Just now, billd766 said:

But do you think that Putin really cares about that?

 

He might want avoid standing near windows if he's thinking about it.

[RuamRudy]

3 hours ago, frank83628 said:

Why would he pay reparations? Has the USA ever paid reparations?

 

What has the history of US wars got to do with this? Russia invaded a sovereign country and has committed countless atrocities as it has destroyed much of the country's infrastructure. There should be no doubt that Russia as a country must pay massively in reparations for many years to come.

 

For those who actively enabled and supported it's actions they need to face proper justice. I have a hope that once the war is over, Ukraine will establish some group similar to the Simon Wiesenthal Center, and spend the next however many years hunting down and delivering justice to each and every one of those who have committed crimes in Ukraine. 

[gearbox]

35 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

Putin is at it again threatening to use nuclear weapons. His nuclear war rhetoric since launching its assault on Ukraine in Feb 2022 is sounding stale. Multiple times he has threatened nuclear respond and all can see through his bluff. It is a zero sum game for him and Russia if he use any sort of nuclear weapons and he knows it. He don't have the support of his key allies China and India to initiate any sort of nuclear retaliation. 

USSR was preparing for nuclear war with NATO, not with Ukraine. They have tons of nukes(biggest pile in the world). For sure the former USSR wasn't relying on China and India for help, and the incumbent Russia doesn't need their help either.

[frank83628]

Just now, RuamRudy said:

 

What has the history of US wars got to do with this? Russia invaded a sovereign country and has committed countless atrocities as it has destroyed much of the country's infrastructure. There should be no doubt that Russia as a country must pay massively in reparations for many years to come.

 

For those who actively enabled and supported it's actions they need to face proper justice. I have a hope that once the war is over, Ukraine will establish some group similar to the Simon Wiesenthal Center, and spend the next however many years hunting down and delivering justice to each and every one of those who have committed crimes in Ukraine. 

Well if you're going to make Putin pay for this war,  then the Yanks should also pay for their destructin of Iraq, Libya, Syria, Afghanistan. Or should this be a new rule only for Putin?

Rules for thee, but not for me!

 

[frank83628]

There seems to be a lot of members coming out of the woodwork since the election. How come all so silent before.

[Eric Loh]

14 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Putin won't do anything until Trump comes to power and there is a coherent President in place that he can have a real conversation with.

 

He knows this is just Biden (or more accurately those pulling his strings) trying to create problems for Trump on day one. Akin to a child who has been ejected from the classroom dropping a stink bomb on the way out. 

 

Shame on the Dems for playing games with the lives of innocent people. Can't say I'm surprised though, we have seen there are no depths they are not prepared to sink to.  

Laughable that Putin will wait 2 months to have a conversation with Trump. One day in a war is a long time. Innocent lives, mostly Ukraine civilians have been lost by Russia in discriminate and disproportionate missles attacks. Long range missles attacks authorised by Biden is long overdue and used to attack Russia military assets. 

[AndreasHG]

Poor Vlad. His conventional weapons have proven such a disappointment on the battlefield that all he has left is to brag about his nuclear arsenal, in the hope the world takes him seriously.

[lordgrinz]

Just now, AndreasHG said:

Poor Vlad. His conventional weapons have proven such a disappointment on the battlefield that all he has left is to brag about his nuclear arsenal, in the hope the world takes him seriously.

 

"Poor Vlad"? I find that hilarious, he holds Crimea and the whole Eastern part of Ukraine, and the West has themselves convinced this war is almost over and won.....SMH

[Paul52]

3 hours ago, frank83628 said:

You need to update you opinion of Russia, the cold war ended a long time ago

The Cold War didn’t actually end.  The West believed that with the collapse of the Soviet Union that a new Russia would bring change and peace.  They were wrong.  Nothing changed.  Politically, very little has changed in Russia since Katherine The Great.  And it never will.  The Cold War continues and may get a bit warmer soon.  NATO remains as relevant and important today as it did 70 years ago.

[James105]

36 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

What has the history of US wars got to do with this? Russia invaded a sovereign country and has committed countless atrocities as it has destroyed much of the country's infrastructure. There should be no doubt that Russia as a country must pay massively in reparations for many years to come.

 

For those who actively enabled and supported it's actions they need to face proper justice. I have a hope that once the war is over, Ukraine will establish some group similar to the Simon Wiesenthal Center, and spend the next however many years hunting down and delivering justice to each and every one of those who have committed crimes in Ukraine. 

 

Wishful thinking in the same way that I think that China should be paying reparations for Covid.  Let's just file that in the box of things that will never happen.   

 

The sooner people come to accept there is no perfect outcome from this and peace negotiations will no doubt lead to concessions from Ukraine that leaves a bad taste in the mouth, the sooner that the people from both Ukraine and Russia can stop dying unnecessarily at the whim of their leaders who do not really care about them.     

[OneMoreFarang]

3 hours ago, pattayasan said:

 

If Putin uses small nuclear weapons in Ukraine, NATO uses big nuclear weapons in Russia and Putin knows it.

Why would NATO do that?

Do you really think America or NATO will risk a nuclear war because of Ukraine? Who really cares about Ukraine? 

[pattayasan]

56 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Why would NATO do that?

Do you really think America or NATO will risk a nuclear war because of Ukraine? Who really cares about Ukraine? 

 

Nobody except the countries arming Ukraine to the teeth.

[metisdead]

Posts with derogatory nicknames, intentional misspellings, or personal remarks will be removed. Spell names correctly for all sides of the debate.

[AndreasHG]

6 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Who really cares about Ukraine?

 

We should collectively care. In 1991 Ukraine had the world third nuclear arsenal stationed on its territory. Giving in to international pressure, Ukraine agreed to renounce its nuclear power status, and to join the nuclear non-proliferation treaty, in exchange for assurances regarding the respect for its sovereignty, security and territorial integrity.
Co-signatories of the agreement (Budapest Memorandum) were the United States, Russia and Great Britain, with endorsement from France and China.

 

Of the three signatories, only the United Kingdom has supported Ukraine with consistency and admirable courage, through several conservative premierships and a labor one. France also has bravely supported Ukraine, despite not being a signatory of the Memorandum.

The Biden administration, on the other hand (and it's my opinion), has been too hesitant and duplicitous in supporting Ukraine, despite the USA clearly accepted the role of being the main guarantor of Ukraine sovereignty against any Russian pretense or aggression.

 

Please note that the Budapest Memorandum provided Ukraine with assurances with regards, among the others, to:

1. Respect the signatory's independence and sovereignty in the existing borders.

2. Refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of the signatories.

3. Refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by Ukraine of the rights inherent in its sovereignty and thus to secure advantages of any kind.

 

Nowhere was agreed that Ukraine shall never join NATO or be part of the EU. In fact, being independent and sovereign gives Ukraine the right to choose its place on the international stage. Russia had no right to object nor to start its criminal war against a sovereign nation.

 

Edited November 21 by AndreasHG

[John Drake]

If Putin is going to threaten Ukraine's supporters with a nuclear attack, then Russia's supporters, China, North Korea, and Iran, should receive the exact same threat.

[3NUMBAS]

7 hours ago, James105 said:

 

Wishful thinking in the same way that I think that China should be paying reparations for Covid.  Let's just file that in the box of things that will never happen.   

 

The sooner people come to accept there is no perfect outcome from this and peace negotiations will no doubt lead to concessions from Ukraine that leaves a bad taste in the mouth, the sooner that the people from both Ukraine and Russia can stop dying unnecessarily at the whim of their leaders who do not really care about them.     

Their assets in the west can be seized to rebuild ukr but 300 billion won’t be enoug

[0ffshore360]

The vested interests of Blackrock and associates would much prefer avoiding nuclear contamination of the real estate they have so massively  acquired via "support" for Zelensky. No less so than the multitude of countries Zelensky has indebted Ukraine with in agreements for the provision of weaponry that in the minds of naive observers is "aid" which implies "free".

The boon to the combined global Arms Industry has been the clearance of mostly aged and obsolete munitions and equipment from many sources at (perhaps) less than cost.

Ukrainians who were already relatively poor before the Russian invasion and annexation have departed by the millions into the surrounding territories and probably will never return from the advantages provided them as "war refugees" with a quality of living previously denied.

That is for those who have escaped the decimation of remaining candidates as cannon fodder to support the "idealism" of NATO expansionism on behalf of half wits on both sides of the conflict.

Global chaos is not imminent.

It is underway.

For the moment it remains a geopolitical game similar to chess but involving some physical jostling and dispute over the timer button a little more than in previous decades.

There was a time when the Chess Board was a test measure of political resolve.

Even then defectors versus loyalists were famous entities gaining political acclaim in defiance of

None of the geopolitical issues that exist are simplistic as some consider can be resolved with such as a nuclear

retaliation or a cowardly "preemptive " bs attack on a presumption.

"Just  effin  nuke em " is  the ultimate ignorant call  to human elimination I have ever heard numerous times and near always from citizens of one country which is not Russian.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[James105]

32 minutes ago, 3NUMBAS said:

Their assets in the west can be seized to rebuild ukr but 300 billion won’t be enoug

 

Wishful thinking and not going to happen.  Everything will have to be settled as part of the negotiations and seizing assets after negotiations have concluded would (rightly) allow Putin to once again attack Ukraine as the deal would have been reneged on.   

[candide]

10 hours ago, JonnyF said:

Putin won't do anything until Trump comes to power and there is a coherent President in place that he can have a real conversation with.

 

He knows this is just Biden (or more accurately those pulling his strings) trying to create problems for Trump on day one. Akin to a child who has been ejected from the classroom dropping a stink bomb on the way out. 

 

Shame on the Dems for playing games with the lives of innocent people. Can't say I'm surprised though, we have seen there are no depths they are not prepared to sink to.  

Putin won't do anything because he knows Trump will give him nearly everything he wants. It will be party time at the Kremlin! 😃

 

He knows that Trump also needs to take public opinion into account, so he surely doesn't want to spoil this opportunity.

 

Of course, Biden knows it.

Edited November 21 by candide

[Bday Prang]

10 hours ago, billd766 said:

2   The other problem is that with Trump taking over in the USA, nobody has any idea (probably Trump also) what the US response will be.

I somehow doubt very much that anybody would have any idea what  the US response would be with Harris in the Whitehouse either , least of all her for gods sake   Personally I think Trump is the last hope in this.  Like him or loath him he's obviously a skilled negotiator and a natural deal maker, he knows how to manipulate people and how far he can push them.

He might not get it perfect in the eyes of all others, but any deal is better than no deal, and if it stops the fighting any deal can eventually be altered.   All the haters should STFU and give the guy a chance, its in all our interests that he has some success,

After all non who went before him achieved anything,   I still remember Macron and Putin sat at opposite ends of that long table   what a complete and embarrassing waste of time

He would refuse to even speak to a woman anyway, especially one like Harris , who wouldn't its mans business after all,  Thatcher might have stood a chance though

[dinsdale]

3 hours ago, AndreasHG said:

Of the three signatories, only the United Kingdom has supported Ukraine with consistency and admirable courage

The use of British Storm Shadows was given by the UK government only after the US gave the UK the go ahead to allow their deployment into Russia.  

[dinsdale]

For the first time, more than half of Ukrainians want a quick, negotiated end to war with Russia: poll

For the first time in the 1,000 days of bloodshed since the Russia-Ukraine war began, more than half of Ukrainians want to see a swift, brokered resolution to the conflict — and even support making territorial concessions to reach peace.

Most Ukrainians — 52% — said the country should seek to negotiate an ending to the war as soon as possible, while 38% want to see Ukraine continue fighting until it defeats Russia, according to the latest Gallup survey on the conflict.

This is an appreciable shift from the early days of the war that began in February 2022, when 73% wanted to fight until Ukraine reached a victory. Support for that position slipped to 63% last year, but this is the first time support for negotiated peace eclipsed a majority among Ukrainians

https://nypost.com/2024/11/19/world-news/most-ukrainians-want-a-quick-negotiated-end-to-war-with-russia-gallup-poll/

[NativeBob]

10 minutes ago, dinsdale said:

For the first time, more than half of Ukrainians want a quick, negotiated end to war with Russia: poll

I thought the narrative from the press was exactly opposite: They are brave Soldiers of Light, willing to sacrifice themselves for striving Democracy, Peace and Freedom.

 

What a huge turn! 

Oops! that was nypost!

Edited November 21 by NativeBob

[dinsdale]

10 hours ago, lordgrinz said:

 

"Poor Vlad"? I find that hilarious, he holds Crimea and the whole Eastern part of Ukraine, and the West has themselves convinced this war is almost over and won.....SMH

Agree the the 1st part (territory taken) but not the 2nd. There is absolutely zero indication that Ukraine can win the war. The only possible road to a military victory for Ukraine would be a total involvement of the US and NATO and everyone knows this and it's not going to happen.

 
 

Edited November 21 by dinsdale

[connda]

Putin flips three Aces and still holds cards.  Raises an Avangard hypersonic glide vehicle and a tactical nuke.

Russian  RS-26 Rubezh delivering conventional MIRV payload to the Dnipo region.

 

 

Edited November 21 by connda

[connda]

Most of you people live in a Continuity Bubble.  You don't grasp how close we are to nuclear war.

[Bday Prang]

On 11/21/2024 at 8:42 PM, dinsdale said:

For the first time, more than half of Ukrainians want a quick, negotiated end to war with Russia: poll

For the first time in the 1,000 days of bloodshed since the Russia-Ukraine war began, more than half of Ukrainians want to see a swift, brokered resolution to the conflict — and even support making territorial concessions to reach peace.

Most Ukrainians — 52% — said the country should seek to negotiate an ending to the war as soon as possible, while 38% want to see Ukraine continue fighting until it defeats Russia, according to the latest Gallup survey on the conflict.

This is an appreciable shift from the early days of the war that began in February 2022, when 73% wanted to fight until Ukraine reached a victory. Support for that position slipped to 63% last year, but this is the first time support for negotiated peace eclipsed a majority among Ukrainians

https://nypost.com/2024/11/19/world-news/most-ukrainians-want-a-quick-negotiated-end-to-war-with-russia-gallup-poll/

I don't think it has much to do with what any of them want, the faceless nameless people really  controlling things, will end it when they are good and ready,   All part of the new world order,  all this death and destruction for a bit of land ,  get real

[pattayasan]

4 minutes ago, connda said:

Most of you people live in a Continuity Bubble.  You don't grasp how close we are to nuclear war.

 

Then tell Putin not to use them. Nothing is compelling him to use nukes. NATO won't use them first, he knows that.